Glad it was of some use. For what it's worth, in the same order:
1/ No 'better men' here (speaking for myself, I'm a far worse one than most, a fact I berate myself for almost every waking minute of every day). As for drive units -everything is a compromise. The MA units aim to be relatively flexible, and can be very good examples of their type. Granted, I am not entirely neutral as I do some consulting for them, but I try to ensure this is known so people can make their own minds up about what I say. Generally speaking though, many do like them, and the Sibelius is a very nice speaker, that has been very carefully tuned by Harley using material he has recorded, played and listens to on a daily basis.
2/ They do have their advantages, although like any other approach, you're always best off working from accurate data. The ideal for a PLLXO is input & output impedances of the pre and power amplifiers, resistances of the connecting leads, & measured frequency, impedance responses of the speakers fed by those amplifiers at the reference axis & preferably a decent range of off-axis.
3/ Not Dave [natch] but no reason it couldn't, any more or less than any other drive unit.
4/ I was thinking about a large series inductor interacting with the LF impedance peaks of the bass drivers. This can often cause excessive output around & above said impedance peak and require an LCR Zobel to damp it out, which involves large components. Can and often is done, but it is (or can be) pricey.
1/ No 'better men' here (speaking for myself, I'm a far worse one than most, a fact I berate myself for almost every waking minute of every day). As for drive units -everything is a compromise. The MA units aim to be relatively flexible, and can be very good examples of their type. Granted, I am not entirely neutral as I do some consulting for them, but I try to ensure this is known so people can make their own minds up about what I say. Generally speaking though, many do like them, and the Sibelius is a very nice speaker, that has been very carefully tuned by Harley using material he has recorded, played and listens to on a daily basis.
2/ They do have their advantages, although like any other approach, you're always best off working from accurate data. The ideal for a PLLXO is input & output impedances of the pre and power amplifiers, resistances of the connecting leads, & measured frequency, impedance responses of the speakers fed by those amplifiers at the reference axis & preferably a decent range of off-axis.
3/ Not Dave [natch] but no reason it couldn't, any more or less than any other drive unit.
4/ I was thinking about a large series inductor interacting with the LF impedance peaks of the bass drivers. This can often cause excessive output around & above said impedance peak and require an LCR Zobel to damp it out, which involves large components. Can and often is done, but it is (or can be) pricey.
True, IMO, even if price is ignored (MA chose to sell more drivers for less money to gain market share),
Certainly doable. MAOPs are superb. And better woofers than the W14.
Tysen sets the example of a slim floorstander with a tapered midTL sitting on top of a push-push ML-TL (with side-firing woofers).
As said, an example with A7.3 and pricey scan woofers exist. The tilt in Tysen is because they are short.
http://www.planet10-hifi.com/planset/TysenV2-promo-171217.pdf
Depends on the box design and where you place the XO. 250-300 Hz is right where the impedances of the drivers are flattening out, the woofers are limited at the top only by their extreme off-axis response, and that is high enuff that there is at least an octave before it starts rolling off, so yes it can be used (and we have used). With a first order XO they will not play as loud.
It makes. Alot of sense. It wouldn’t be Tysen thou. Essentially an upgrade and reconfiguration of something like our big MTM (Chris did use MAOP in these as well as the A7.3eN).
Getting the midTL at the right height in such a TL could be tricky.
That is beauty, XO anywhere from about 250 to 5k.
I really liked the woodwork done by Timpert in the link below. Extending this design using 2 12PWs in push-push, on the sides, might be an option.
You have copied the wrong URL, your pages per page is set different than mine, so that link does not work.
same
A crude WAW. :^)
dave
Thanks Scott.
Yeah I get that PLLXOs might be a cheaper alternate (I would need a 4 channel power amplifier instead of a 2 channel one) if we factor in the cost of large inductors and LCR networks in a passive crossover. Besides since a PLLXO sees a purely resistive load it's a lot easier to design.
Certainly doable. MAOPs are superb. And better woofers than the W14.
Tysen sets the example of a slim floorstander with a tapered midTL sitting on top of a push-push ML-TL (with side-firing woofers).
As said, an example with A7.3 and pricey scan woofers exist. The tilt in Tysen is because they are short.
http://www.planet10-hifi.com/planset/TysenV2-promo-171217.pdf
Depends on the box design and where you place the XO. 250-300 Hz is right where the impedances of the drivers are flattening out, the woofers are limited at the top only by their extreme off-axis response, and that is high enuff that there is at least an octave before it starts rolling off, so yes it can be used (and we have used). With a first order XO they will not play as loud.
It makes. Alot of sense. It wouldn’t be Tysen thou.
Getting the midTL at the right height in such a TL could be tricky.
That is beauty, XO anywhere from about 250 to 5k.
You have copied the wrong URL, your pages per page is set different than mine, so that link does not work.
1. Which woofers would you recommend with the MAOP 7 or MAOP 5 in a "Timpert-Tysen style" loudspeaker? Only the A12PW? Any other options?
2. I was thinking of a Tysen similar to this one but using 2 side mounted woofers (either the A12PW or another woofer) with a MAOP 7 or MAOP 5 on the front. https://www.diyaudio.com/community/attachments/a7pa12pw-jpg.477422/
These are narrow too but too tall. My wife wont want anything much higher than her shoulder height (say 44-48").
https://www.planet10-hifi.com/planset/MK12pw-A7-MTM.png
3. The challenge the MTM floorstander in your image has is lower WAF. In the end I would like the speaker to integrate aesthetically into the living room. Hence I was looking at a narrower front baffle and side mounted woofers. The bonus being that the 2 woofers can be interconnected to reduce vibration (sort of like the cylinders of a boxer engine).
4. How does one handle baffle step with side mounted woofers?
5. What defines a Tysen? I assumed any loudspeaker that uses a full range in the front baffle, supplemented by 2 side mounted woofers would fit the "Tysen" criteria.
A “Tysen-style box” would be an ML-TL push-push side mounted woofers with a highly tapered midTL on top. There are many potential cosmetic possibilities including the one you linked with the careful attention to low diffraction around the “tweeter” but misses out on doing a lot more. That helps only with HF diffraction, and with the midTweeter used, could well be moot at the frequencies it is operating at due to limited dispersion of the 4” A7p. More important to concernn yourself with the shape of the 2π to 4π transition.
There are just too many woofers to choose from for me to directly recommend something. The A12pw is certainly very good, it does have a slight edge in voice matched to the MA tops than say the SDX7eN used in our other big WAW. The other woofer we have used is the EL166 (anyonr close, i have a trapeoid ML-TL helper woofer with 4xSDX7eN for take-away (too big to ship, i will accept donations, but they really just need a good home).
I would turn the question around, what woofers work in an ML-TL that can be fitted under the midTweeter TL, and that you can get for a good price where you are.
If you go active you have much more potential choice. Do note that Class D can do very well in the bottom with something more nuanced on top. I have a 4x100 into 4Ω downstairs that was built from a pre-builf sure board for <$100 USD. Considerably less than the big chokes & almost beer can sized caps.
With the side firing woofers there is no baffle step. Only on the midTweeter. If you set the XO somewhere between (0.707->1) times BS(-3) and use the gain control on the bass amp to dial in exactly as much as you need.
dave
There are just too many woofers to choose from for me to directly recommend something. The A12pw is certainly very good, it does have a slight edge in voice matched to the MA tops than say the SDX7eN used in our other big WAW. The other woofer we have used is the EL166 (anyonr close, i have a trapeoid ML-TL helper woofer with 4xSDX7eN for take-away (too big to ship, i will accept donations, but they really just need a good home).
I would turn the question around, what woofers work in an ML-TL that can be fitted under the midTweeter TL, and that you can get for a good price where you are.
If you go active you have much more potential choice. Do note that Class D can do very well in the bottom with something more nuanced on top. I have a 4x100 into 4Ω downstairs that was built from a pre-builf sure board for <$100 USD. Considerably less than the big chokes & almost beer can sized caps.
With the side firing woofers there is no baffle step. Only on the midTweeter. If you set the XO somewhere between (0.707->1) times BS(-3) and use the gain control on the bass amp to dial in exactly as much as you need.
dave
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Thanks Dave,
So I would have to design an ML-TL using a woofer and a highly tapered MidTL for the MAOP? The latter might be easier than the former.
I can import from Madisound. They have their processes and systems in order.
Outside of Madisound, these are some of the woofers that are available where I am. The conversion rate is about Rs. 75 per USD. So a Rs. 7,500 woofer would mean about $100 and a Rs. 15,000 woofer would mean about $200.
https://diyaudiocart.com/Raw-Driver...ver?filter=122,74,234&sort=p.price&order=DESC
https://diyaudiocart.com/Raw-Driver...us-Cone-Woofer-8-ohms?sort=p.price&order=DESC
https://diyaudiocart.com/Raw-Drivers/Woofer/SB-Acoustics-Satori MW16P-4-6.5''-Egyptian-Papyrus-Cone-Woofer-8-ohms?sort=p.price&order=DESC
https://diyaudiocart.com/Raw-Drivers/Woofer/SB-Acoustics-SB17NRX2C35-8-6 -Woofer-paper-cone?filter=229,234&sort=p.price&order=DESC
https://diyaudiocart.com/Raw-Drivers/Woofer/SB-Acoustics-SB17NRX2C35-8-6 -Woofer-paper-cone?filter=229,234&sort=p.price&order=DESC
The only MAOP available locally is the 11
https://diyaudiocart.com/Raw-Drivers/Full-Range/MarkAudio-MAOP-11-Pair?sort=p.price&order=DESC
There are a few other MA drivers available
https://diyaudiocart.com/Raw-Drivers/Full-Range/Markaudio- Alpair-5.3-Gold-Cone-3"-Full Range - Pair?filter=122,74,234&sort=p.price&order=DESC
https://diyaudiocart.com/Raw-Driver...nge?filter=122,74,234&sort=p.price&order=DESC
https://diyaudiocart.com/Raw-Driver...air?filter=122,74,234&sort=p.price&order=DESC
https://diyaudiocart.com/Raw-Driver...er)?filter=122,74,234&sort=p.price&order=DESC
Navin,
What woofer brands would you have available in India?
And how slim would yo require to go for passing WAF?
My current speakers are 44" tall, 10" wide and 16" deep. Keeping height constant, we were considering something slimmer and less deep. Say 7" wide and 14" deep? Beyond just physical size, the aesthetics (shape and proportions) of the Tysen V2 look very pleasing.
I am the only person among all my friends and relatives using "traditional" speakers and amplifiers. Most of my friends have moved to soundbars for video and Sonus (1 has BluSound) for audio. My wife keeps wondering why we need towers!
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Me too but according to Erin they arent suitable for bass duty, more for midrange duty.
https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/driveunits/sbacoustics_sb17cac35-4/
We have the Satori 8" and 6.5" available locally but they aren't white.
https://diyaudiocart.com/Raw-Driver...us-Cone-Woofer-8-ohms?sort=p.price&order=DESC
https://diyaudiocart.com/Raw-Drivers/Woofer/SB-Acoustics-Satori MW16P-4-6.5''-Egyptian-Papyrus-Cone-Woofer-8-ohms?sort=p.price&order=DESC
midTL is dead simple. Woofer ML-TL i just lean on Scott, who can usually spit something out i can work with in short order. Otherwise MJK or HornResp.
They have a good selection, something local would avoid corruption/duty coming into the country.
It is a 6.5” driver
https://diyaudiocart.com/Raw-Driver...ver?filter=122,74,234&sort=p.price&order=DESC
I got to looking at some 20 of their woofers (which i never got all the way thru). The choice of woofers is not overly critical. You are not using them where they have the worst issues, more a case of choosing something you can get, that fits the size of box intended, and is decently made.
11 is based on the Puvia 11, which suggests, with no real evidence, that the A7 and A10.2 MAOPs (and for midTweeter the MAOP 5 [if it goes low enuff and plays loud enuff for your needs, i VERY stronyly suspect it does upperMids/top best.
Both very good. Being able to score A6.2m is c5\ool, they are getting scarce (i still have a couple pair available), they don’t have the monoSuspension of the A5 so is sort of part way between A7.3 and A5.2/3 (no significant difference between the 2).
I would not recommned CHN70, it has Japanese voicing, sounds good but is very midrange dominant. CHR i would not use.
Small for an ML-TL. This is where Silver Flute W14 used in Tysen might work well and ML-TLs are worked out for it. Otherwise you are looking at a woofer that is not TL loaded.
Because what mentioned before barely play music (with any fidelity).to soundbars for video and Sonus (1 has BluSound) for audio. My wife keeps wondering why we need towers!
dave
Thanks, Dave
I am not averse to importing from Madisound. I have an existing requirement (some SEAS Excel woofers) that I still have to order from Adam Johnson. The customs can be a hassle but if I order a few more drivers it's not going to be extraordinarily complicated for me.
I don't know where I found this but I am hoping to have the front driver (either the Alpair-5.3, Alpair 6.2, MAOP 5 or MAOP7) have a sloping front baffle as shown in the images below.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/attachments/a7pa12pw-jpg.477422/
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/attachments/new_mtm-jpg.366766/
Ideally, I would prefer the port facing the rear so the front baffle offers a clean minimalist surface. I am even comfortable having 1-2 rear-facing passive radiator(s) instead of a port. Just because passive radiators are a little easier to tune than a port (adding weight is easier than cutting wood).
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...b-acoustics-sb15sfcr-00-5x8-passive-radiator/
I have heard Def-Tech and Golden Ear loudspeakers that use similar oval passive radiators and the bass is massive. We had to pull them 3m into the listening room to reduce the bass. Since my taste in music covers everything from ABBA to Zappa and from Chopin to Tchaikovsky having some bass on tap would be nice. Besides, the speakers will also do duty when my wife watches movies.
I am open to the choice of woofers. The speakers that are being replaced have 2 8" woofers (see image below. FYI it's an old image and the electronics and TV have since been replaced).
These speakers are good enough for large scale rock much do not so much for intimate acoustic music. My hope for the Mark-Audio based system is for it to be equally adept at both.
Have you seen this?
https://boenicke-audio.ch/W11imagehifi.pdf
Am I expecting too much from this version of the Tysen?
Passive radiators do not in themselves equate to 'massive bass'. In general their primary use is for acoustically compact boxes for a given tuning, when a conventional vent would be impractically long with any kind of reasonable cross section. If there is excess LF output, that is more a question of the alignment than the use of passive radiators per se.
Not entirely surprising. If those are Seas Excel units, then with very few exceptions I'd have major reservations about partnering them with most ribbons. Especially if the bell modes haven't been sufficiently notched out.
Navin,
I remember that thot experiment, i guess i must have posted it at some time. It is one of several larger boxes in the style of Tysen i was playing with.
As Scott says, PRs are just vents with more an extra resonance for when the vent gets too large for the box. I am not a fan. Given the situation you ar edescrivbing the loudspeaker is producing excessive bass.
dave
I remember that thot experiment, i guess i must have posted it at some time. It is one of several larger boxes in the style of Tysen i was playing with.
As Scott says, PRs are just vents with more an extra resonance for when the vent gets too large for the box. I am not a fan. Given the situation you ar edescrivbing the loudspeaker is producing excessive bass.
dave
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I was considering a passive radiator only because adding mass is easier than cutting wood.
The speaker (including the crossover) was designed by Rick Craig of Selah Audio. Rick passed away in August last year. From all my interactions with him, I can say with confidence that he was a real gentleman.
Did that experiment see fruition and if not, is there any reason why that "experiment" was abandoned?
I prefer ports because they are cheaper (I don't have to import any passive radiator) but passive radiators I would assume are easier to tune since all one has to do is add weight which can be done using Blutac.
FYI, have you seen this channel?
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtY5leAPgcBlj0zUSiwtUzQ
You can also adjust vent lengths without cutting wood (unless it's a physical part of the cabinet, which admittedly does make that a trifle harder
). Just use an adjustable / telescopic vent. Job done.He was indeed, and he's much-missed by everyone who knew or had contact with him. However, that doesn't necessarily mean the speaker and / or crossover design are optimal to your requirements. Since you've discovered it isn't, QED.
Not exactly sure, I mean for all I know this speaker could be transformed to one that accentuates a different genre, by using EQ. That would be on the assumption that the crossover proper is fine.
I wonder about the ribbon. If breakup is difficult as you are suggesting and someone chooses a steep enough filter, well ribbons are often used with a not so shallow filter anyway?
I wonder about the ribbon. If breakup is difficult as you are suggesting and someone chooses a steep enough filter, well ribbons are often used with a not so shallow filter anyway?
Well, I've no intention of the thread being diverted from its object, so you'll forgive the brevity and the fact that this will be my single reply on the matter.
First, for all any of us know that might be the case. The point is we don't, EQ was never raised & we don't even know if it's available. What we do know is that it's stated that the speakers are not working to the listener's satisfaction on certain material.
Secondly, I didn't say 'a ribbon would cause such a problem'. Those are your words. What I wrote was:
Which is an observation on a potential mismatch of driver characteristics, not a statement that a ribbon is the source of the reported issue. As you know better than I do, most (not all, but most) ribbons have relatively poor HD performance at the lower end of their range, while the magnesium cone Seas Excel units have high Q bell modes that typically require relatively low and high order filtering for units of their respective types & sizes, preferably with said modes notched out to prevent HD amplification lower down. As combinations go, it's not one I'd pick, and usually means something, somewhere, may start to give, be it in HD, polars or whatever. No doubt there are some exceptions if well-implemented, but I've yet to encounter one I'd chose over alternatives. YMMV as always of course.
First, for all any of us know that might be the case. The point is we don't, EQ was never raised & we don't even know if it's available. What we do know is that it's stated that the speakers are not working to the listener's satisfaction on certain material.
Secondly, I didn't say 'a ribbon would cause such a problem'. Those are your words. What I wrote was:
Which is an observation on a potential mismatch of driver characteristics, not a statement that a ribbon is the source of the reported issue. As you know better than I do, most (not all, but most) ribbons have relatively poor HD performance at the lower end of their range, while the magnesium cone Seas Excel units have high Q bell modes that typically require relatively low and high order filtering for units of their respective types & sizes, preferably with said modes notched out to prevent HD amplification lower down. As combinations go, it's not one I'd pick, and usually means something, somewhere, may start to give, be it in HD, polars or whatever. No doubt there are some exceptions if well-implemented, but I've yet to encounter one I'd chose over alternatives. YMMV as always of course.
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Was it ever finished? The reason I ask is that I don't see it on your website.
http://frugal-phile.com/boxlib/P10free/microTower-maps-020615.pdf
You can also adjust vent lengths without cutting wood (unless it's a physical part of the cabinet, which admittedly does make that a trifle harder
However, that doesn't necessarily mean the speaker and / or crossover design are optimal to your requirements. Since you've discovered it isn't, QED.
Round ports can be easily adjusted but some like the Tysen's port is a slot and are hence integral to the cabinet. I would assume the slot port can be replaced by a round port having an equivalent area.
Trying not to go off-topic, besides I did not discuss the crossover with Rick. I assumed he knew what he was doing. So just posting a picture of 1 part of the crossover he sent me (I am only doing this because he is no more with us and Selah Audio has ceased operations). The crossover he sent was in 2 parts - 1 for the woofer and mid and a second for the tweeter.
Circling back to the topic on hand, Rick's Excel-Fountek based speakers are quite nice but when it comes to small acoustic intimate recordings I believe a full range has the edge. The drama and the details are here:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/selah-audio-for-ex-diyer.208311/#post2939157
What I am trying to achieve (if it is indeed possible at all) is to build a speaker that can be comfortable with small ensembles as well as symphonies and live rock bands (I do not listen to modern heavy metal, electronic pop, rap, hip hop, trance, rave etc.). If the loudspeaker can cover Bach, Beatles and Black Sabbath equally well I will be happy.
The seating is 10-20 ft (3-6m) away from the speakers and if we can get 95db at the seating position it's fine. I do not need ear-bleed levels. I would like the speaker to NOT need a subwoofer at least for most music. The subwoofer can then only be reserved for (special effects) movies.
BTW Scott, are you the same Scott in this video?
Navin,
A few points regarding seating distance and SPL:
Such SPLs (not advised) will probably need pro drivers or high efficiency speakers designed for such dynamic headroom in mind. And the speakers will be big...
A few points regarding seating distance and SPL:
- 95 dB is LOUD...Anything over 85dB can lead to hearing loss; there is a lot of info on the Internet on this and a Google search will yield some good links.
- If you are aiming for 96dB at seated position from 10 feet (approx 3 meters), the speaker will have to produce ~104dB output measured from 1 meter. That would be driving most wide-band drivers beyond their operating limits in a typical FAST design (XO anywhere from 250-900 Hz).
- To achieve 95dB SPL at 20 feet distance (~6 meters), the speaker will need to produce 110 dB at 1 meter distance...
Such SPLs (not advised
) will probably need pro drivers or high efficiency speakers designed for such dynamic headroom in mind. And the speakers will be big...
Assuming so, there is a reason I brought up the topic of EQ which relates to your mention of genres of music. A good speaker which is tuned to be neutral should handle all genres equally well. (I'm not including obvious exceptions like not being able to play loud enough or not being able to reproduce a low organ pipe
) .. but it should be able to sound good nonetheless.Often manufacturers "voice" their speakers (change the tone). Sometimes this accentuates a particular genre.
In any case, there are two reasons a person might apply a scheme of equalisation outside of neutral... personal preference or to cover up a flaw. Some sleuthing with an equaliser should be able to get you to the bottom of that question. With any luck it may also be what you need.