It depends on whether you think those LSR305s really sound good or not. I don't consider them to be even close to acceptable.
The sound quality from cheap commercial speakers selling for $100 each ranges from terrible to barely acceptable. A DIYer can use that same $200 to buy kits that have much better sound than these commercial products.
So what kit can a DIYer buy for $200 that have much better sound quality than the LSR305 pair, amp included?
Right, just curious, what did you compare the LSR305 against that led you to conclude they have poor sound quality?
I have the LSR305. Are they the best? Of course not, but they can be improved pretty cheaply by stiffening up the baffle and the box. There is a limit how much you can improve it given that the little woofers have to play low bass and the power supply is not the best. You can high pass them and pair them with the sub like the LSR310S to improve the sound even more.
At their prices though it's pretty tough to beat even with DIY. Even spending more money DIY doesn't guarantee better results unless the DIY design is solid with good part quality.
Don't get me wrong, I love DIY and we can achieve a lot with DIY systems, but they're not for every one in every situation.
Peace
I have the LSR305. Are they the best? Of course not, but they can be improved pretty cheaply by stiffening up the baffle and the box. There is a limit how much you can improve it given that the little woofers have to play low bass and the power supply is not the best. You can high pass them and pair them with the sub like the LSR310S to improve the sound even more.
At their prices though it's pretty tough to beat even with DIY. Even spending more money DIY doesn't guarantee better results unless the DIY design is solid with good part quality.
Don't get me wrong, I love DIY and we can achieve a lot with DIY systems, but they're not for every one in every situation.
Peace
But DIY is for everyone here on this forum. That is precisely the reason this forum exists and people participate in it.
What I don't understand is why some people keep introducing cheap commercial products on this forum as though those represent anything that the members here would really care about or be interest in having.
These are two entirely different worlds and I don't see any overlap.
You repeatedly and definitively state this on thread after thread, as if you speak for everyone on this forum. You speak for yourself, nothing more. Saying it more loudly and abrasively doesn't convince anyone of anything but your capacity for escalating boorishness.
That is fine; the logical solution is to ignore those threads, feel free to do that.
What no one appreciates is a would-be de-facto moderator policing threads, shouting down anyone who wants to discuss design aspects of commercial speakers, or even their value proposition visavis DIY speakers.
Active is a poor way to go if 'you care about sound quality'?
Leaving that aside for the moment, I'll play along. You've repeatedly stated that DIYers can do better than any commercial speaker at a fraction of the cost. So, show me the kit, at a fraction of $250, that has better objective performance than this:
JBL 308P MKII Studio Monitor Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
Materials will be required, so be sure to include their cost. We'll cut you some slack on the amp, the kit can be passive, even though it's not apples to apples. And we don't have to include your time building or finishing it to taste.
Thanks for the link to Amir's review. I hadn't seen that one before. And there in his test data is precisely the major problem with this speaker. It has terrible harmonic distortion. To me it's unlistenable with that level of HD.
And that's generally the problem with all cheap consumer grade speakers. I've heard it over and over with comparably priced products from Sonus, Bose, and others. No one can manufacture a quality sounding speaker and sell it at retail for $100. The numbers just aren't there. And generally the biggest problem is distortion due to cheap plastic cones which destroys any possibility for decent quality sound.
And that's generally the problem with all cheap consumer grade speakers. I've heard it over and over with comparably priced products from Sonus, Bose, and others. No one can manufacture a quality sounding speaker and sell it at retail for $100. The numbers just aren't there. And generally the biggest problem is distortion due to cheap plastic cones which destroys any possibility for decent quality sound.
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I wonder how these nonlinear distortion levels compare to the DIY kits you suggest; the ones at 'a fraction of the price'?
I'll wait for the links to objectively superior designs that are substantially cheaper than this. True, the certainty you've stated this with so many times might lead one to assume you have evidence and references at the ready, but it's understandable that you may not. I'm sure you'll provide them soon, at any rate.
I never said that there are DIY kits at a fraction of the price of $100 commercial speakers, or that there are superior designs cheaper than those. I said that DIY kits are capable of performance levels comparable to or even exceeding commercial speakers costing 5 to 10 times as much.
My personal experience is with Jeff Bagby’s Piccolo speakers that can be obtained in kit form for $316 per pair from Meniscus Audio. The performance of these speakers in my opinion far surpasses commercial products that I have auditioned in stores from Klipsch, Monicor Audio, and PSB at prices ranging from $1,200 per pair to $5,000 per pair.
In fact I brought home the PSBs and promptly took them back because they sounded so poorly. That’s when I became interested in DIY and have now become convinced of the outstanding value proposition it provides.
Here is a link to the Piccolo kit if you are interested.
Piccolo Bare Bones Kit (Pair) - Meniscus Audio
The JBL 305s are currently selling for $300 per pair. Essentially the same price as the Piccolo kit at $316. If you would be happy with the JBLs level of performance and particularly distortion, then fine. I wouldn't be. Nor do I think most people here would be either.
My personal experience is with Jeff Bagby’s Piccolo speakers that can be obtained in kit form for $316 per pair from Meniscus Audio. The performance of these speakers in my opinion far surpasses commercial products that I have auditioned in stores from Klipsch, Monicor Audio, and PSB at prices ranging from $1,200 per pair to $5,000 per pair.
In fact I brought home the PSBs and promptly took them back because they sounded so poorly. That’s when I became interested in DIY and have now become convinced of the outstanding value proposition it provides.
Here is a link to the Piccolo kit if you are interested.
Piccolo Bare Bones Kit (Pair) - Meniscus Audio
The JBL 305s are currently selling for $300 per pair. Essentially the same price as the Piccolo kit at $316. If you would be happy with the JBLs level of performance and particularly distortion, then fine. I wouldn't be. Nor do I think most people here would be either.
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Apparently, the link I put into the above post to the Piccolos speakers doesn't work properly. If you are interested try this one instead:
Piccolo Bare Bones Kit (Pair) - Meniscus Audio
And make sure to read the Piccolo Write Up found there as well for a full description of its outstanding performance.
Piccolo Bare Bones Kit (Pair) - Meniscus Audio
And make sure to read the Piccolo Write Up found there as well for a full description of its outstanding performance.
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Back to the OP's point, "sandwich" speaker cones go back quite a long way:
Leak Sandwich Loudspeaker
I certainly remember a Wireless World diy article from the '60s in which a 12" speaker cone was changed for one made from expanded polystyrene (styrofoam?), sandwiched between stressed aluminium foil skins. The author reckoned smooth performance up to 1kHz, beyond which it became "rough and directional".
With a stiff-cone driver handling midrange, I would imagine a lot of attention would have to be paid to the surround - critical damping, to prevent reflections back down the cone to the voicecoil (ringing). This would be somewhat counter to the high compliance required of a bass/midrange driver at bass frequencies.
Off-axis performance would be a consideration too.
Leak Sandwich Loudspeaker
I certainly remember a Wireless World diy article from the '60s in which a 12" speaker cone was changed for one made from expanded polystyrene (styrofoam?), sandwiched between stressed aluminium foil skins. The author reckoned smooth performance up to 1kHz, beyond which it became "rough and directional".
With a stiff-cone driver handling midrange, I would imagine a lot of attention would have to be paid to the surround - critical damping, to prevent reflections back down the cone to the voicecoil (ringing). This would be somewhat counter to the high compliance required of a bass/midrange driver at bass frequencies.
Off-axis performance would be a consideration too.
I am sure Piccolo kit is exceptionally good for just $316, but you must add the cost of the enclosure also, moving to a $400 per pair territory. For the same price you can buy low-distortion studio monitor Adam T5V, with "free" amplifier inside. Just saying.
Sure, there are some extra costs for materials and finishing. So $400 is probably a pretty good estimate for the total cost.
But the point is there is still going to be a major difference in sound quality.
One is a low cost consumer product, actually intended for the pro audio market, with a cheap polypropylene driver, and built in Class D amplifiers.
The other is a custom design using quality SB Acoustics paper drivers and amplifiers of your own choosing.
So comparing these two on a price basis is really meaningless. The important comparison is on sound quality and overall enjoyment.
But the point is there is still going to be a major difference in sound quality.
One is a low cost consumer product, actually intended for the pro audio market, with a cheap polypropylene driver, and built in Class D amplifiers.
The other is a custom design using quality SB Acoustics paper drivers and amplifiers of your own choosing.
So comparing these two on a price basis is really meaningless. The important comparison is on sound quality and overall enjoyment.
No it's not because the cost of power amplifiers is missing. A realistic price for comparison is a few hundred dollars more.
Is there? They both have 5" midwoofers making them too small to be used as high fidelity mains. They will crap out in different ways but at around the same SPL. The commercial speaker has a limiter whereas the passive kit speaker will compress peaks but they will do it at around the same SPL. The latter is preferable if you have to listen to distorting speakers but it is more likely to lead to damage if sustained.
The waveguide on the commercial speaker is likely to be a benefit in blind listening tests for those seeking a more neutral sound. But then some seem to like the directivity mushroom of 2 ways so one cannot be too adamant. The on-axis balance is different perhaps favouring the kit speaker. I wouldn't be confident in predicting the results of a blind test at the modest SPLs these speakers can deliver cleanly.
Price is an important parameter for most people particularly at the budget end. Is the time, effort, perhaps 2-3 times increase in purchasing price, negligible resale price, tooling and manufacturing costs good value for the budget kit speaker compared to the budget commercial speaker? Obviously not in terms of money. One has to get value from the hobby itself for speaker DIY at the budget end to make sense. For some the value is there (e.g. most of the regular posts here) but for many others it is not. It is rather more about people than it is about speakers.
I know you are seeking to defend DIY speakers vs commercial speakers as am I but by not being realistic about the relative costs at the budget end and to some extent what contributes to the quality of sound will lead to a poor case being made.
I tend to discount the cost of an amplifier when talking about speakers here, because I think most people on this forum already have one to use. If you are starting from scratch, then obviously the amp cost is a factor.
But more important than cost, much more important, is sound quality. I don’t care how much or how little a speaker costs, if you can’t listen to it and enjoy it then cost is irrelevant.
I can only speak from my own experience, which as I have already described was to try to find commercial speakers I would buy. And I couldn’t. Even with prices up to $5,000 per pair.
Now, of course, I didn’t audition every speaker on the market. But I did listen to some of the more popular and readily available brands in HiFi stores. I took with me a very good quality CD with Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony. Some of the people in the stores were offended when I insisted on using my CD rather than the crappy streaming MP3 quality that they like to use for speaker evaluation.
In general the biggest problem I had with these commercial speakers was distortion. Even at moderate SPLs. I might be much more sensitive to it than others. My wife can listen to things with distortion that I can’t. Drives me right out of the room.
But for whatever reason, none of these speakers sounded acceptable to me. None that I would buy. That’s the reason I finally turned to DIY. It wasn’t my first choice, but became the only option. I happen to be a woodworker also, so the cabinet building part was a non-issue for me.
Note also that I’m basing my evaluations solely on classical music, which is much more demanding than popular music. Particularly with regard to dynamic range.
So based on my own experience I believe, and I know others do as well, that you likely have to spend anywhere from 5 to 10 times as much to get comparable sound quality from commercial speakers compared to DIY designs. And even then, I’m not sure you can find it.
Is it possible that these new Polk speakers will deliver sound quality comparable to some of the better DIY designs? I guess it is possible, but I have serious doubts despite some of their new marketing claims.
But more important than cost, much more important, is sound quality. I don’t care how much or how little a speaker costs, if you can’t listen to it and enjoy it then cost is irrelevant.
I can only speak from my own experience, which as I have already described was to try to find commercial speakers I would buy. And I couldn’t. Even with prices up to $5,000 per pair.
Now, of course, I didn’t audition every speaker on the market. But I did listen to some of the more popular and readily available brands in HiFi stores. I took with me a very good quality CD with Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony. Some of the people in the stores were offended when I insisted on using my CD rather than the crappy streaming MP3 quality that they like to use for speaker evaluation.
In general the biggest problem I had with these commercial speakers was distortion. Even at moderate SPLs. I might be much more sensitive to it than others. My wife can listen to things with distortion that I can’t. Drives me right out of the room.
But for whatever reason, none of these speakers sounded acceptable to me. None that I would buy. That’s the reason I finally turned to DIY. It wasn’t my first choice, but became the only option. I happen to be a woodworker also, so the cabinet building part was a non-issue for me.
Note also that I’m basing my evaluations solely on classical music, which is much more demanding than popular music. Particularly with regard to dynamic range.
So based on my own experience I believe, and I know others do as well, that you likely have to spend anywhere from 5 to 10 times as much to get comparable sound quality from commercial speakers compared to DIY designs. And even then, I’m not sure you can find it.
Is it possible that these new Polk speakers will deliver sound quality comparable to some of the better DIY designs? I guess it is possible, but I have serious doubts despite some of their new marketing claims.
Here's another perspective: DIY only saves money if you value your time at $0. (I'm not saying that is completely true, as some people use pre-designed kits.) As for commercial products, I for one DO like to know what is out there. Perhaps for recommendations to those who will just never DIY, and perhaps (like car magazines) just out of general curiosity.
There really isn't anything to talk about with regard to the port and cone technology. As best I can tell there has never been an independent double blind, or even single blind, listening test with an impartial panel to validate any of the claims that Polk has made with regard to these two features.
If someone can actually prove the value of these things as more than gimmicks to sell more speakers, then it would be worthwhile. But so far I have seen no evidence of that happening. So this is nothing more than marketing BS at the moment
Polk did a masterful job of announcing this new product line. Kudos to the marketing department. Lots of reviews on the internet, but none I saw that really claims these are any better than comparable products from other manufactures. They have their good points and their flaws, just like every other speaker on the market.
So I feel perfectly fine about calling into question the value of the initial post and subsequent discussion. It’s not about ego. It’s about trying to understand where the real value and performance are at for these speakers. And separating marketing hype from reality.
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