Hi Matthew,
Thanks and a Happy Thanksgiving to you too.Nice of you to show my boat.
Regards,
Your boat looked the most festive!
Her in Denmark (and western europe in general) we have always been keen on American culture (since 2. world war). In the last ten years or so we have adopted Helloween, Valentines Day ect.
The other day we had Black Friday, and people ran around like headless chickens in a big mass psychosis But we haven't come around to take in Thanksgivings Day. Give it a couple of years and we are ready 
The other day we had Black Friday, and people ran around like headless chickens in a big mass psychosis
But we haven't come around to take in Thanksgivings Day. Give it a couple of years and we are ready
Black Eye Friday
That is really good to hear, especially since so many of those holidays have their origins in old Europe to begin with
Black Friday is different though, I wouldn't wish Black Friday on anyone, it is almost an American embarrassment here lately with the way people misbehave by trampling each other and fighting over the discounted televisions and video game consoles or whatever..... It just gets out of control and makes us look petty, and trashy, but i have an idea to make it more interesting!! I propose that we release some angry bulls into the store as it opens on Black Friday and it can be like the American version of Spain's "Running of the Bulls"
Her in Denmark (and western europe in general) we have always been keen on American culture (since 2. world war). In the last ten years or so we have adopted Helloween, Valentines Day ect.
The other day we had Black Friday, and people ran around like headless chickens in a big mass psychosis
That is really good to hear, especially since so many of those holidays have their origins in old Europe to begin with
Black Friday is different though, I wouldn't wish Black Friday on anyone, it is almost an American embarrassment here lately with the way people misbehave by trampling each other and fighting over the discounted televisions and video game consoles or whatever..... It just gets out of control and makes us look petty, and trashy, but i have an idea to make it more interesting!! I propose that we release some angry bulls into the store as it opens on Black Friday and it can be like the American version of Spain's "Running of the Bulls"
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that's an interesting bassoon composition - new composer to me - - coloration in regular Karlson exists but can be better than the coloration of imperfect direct radiators and no worse than folded horns. I have heard some K bad - if the driver's mids and highs are not sufficient to balance, possibly some curved reflectors, vent suckouts. Did the tall aperture do any better than the short height aperture? - or both too colored to make a judgement?
Can a K-aperture be used effectively with a positive expansion tapped horn and get extra 'hit"? Weltersys found his "keystone' aperture better for his creation.
on the horn thing, here's the little horn made by thejessman ready for clear coat - my idea of 2-tone on already glued panels is tricky as the dye will seep under tape in spots http://i.imgur.com/8qag2Xo.jpg
- - coloration in regular Karlson exists but can be better than the coloration of imperfect direct radiators and no worse than folded horns. I have heard some K bad - if the driver's mids and highs are not sufficient to balance, possibly some curved reflectors, vent suckouts. Did the tall aperture do any better than the short height aperture? - or both too colored to make a judgement?Can a K-aperture be used effectively with a positive expansion tapped horn and get extra 'hit"? Weltersys found his "keystone' aperture better for his creation.
on the horn thing, here's the little horn made by thejessman ready for clear coat - my idea of 2-tone on already glued panels is tricky as the dye will seep under tape in spots http://i.imgur.com/8qag2Xo.jpg
Bulls invade Black Friday, dominate, and walk away with all of the loot
Oh yes ,
It should be entertaining and in the end i think the bulls would win and get to keep all of the discounted televisions, video game consoles and toaster ovens
It would look something like this:
Oh yes, some angry bulls and then watch the "bloody thing" from ones warm and save couch, that would give Black Friday a new mening
(by the way I'm not sadistic, just having inferior thoughts
Oh yes ,
It should be entertaining and in the end i think the bulls would win and get to keep all of the discounted televisions, video game consoles and toaster ovens
It would look something like this:
Troubleshooting
Sebastian,
I have to wonder where the nasal tone is coming from? (even after flattening the response with DSP).
Lets attempt to troubleshoot..
Do you still get that midrange colouration as a direct radiator when the front panel is removed?
If so i would suspect that perhaps a resonance or reflection from the back chamber is making it's way back through the cone? In that case (since you seem to have plenty of room back there) you could try a sheet of that fiberglass on the panel behind the driver to see if it changes the nature of the colouration that you are hearing ...
Hopefully the coloured midrange isn't inherent to the driver itself or related to the width of the cabinet ...
Freddi's suggestion of a Keystone style aperture could also be an interesting experiment .. .
Sebastian,
I have to wonder where the nasal tone is coming from? (even after flattening the response with DSP).
Lets attempt to troubleshoot..
Do you still get that midrange colouration as a direct radiator when the front panel is removed?
If so i would suspect that perhaps a resonance or reflection from the back chamber is making it's way back through the cone? In that case (since you seem to have plenty of room back there) you could try a sheet of that fiberglass on the panel behind the driver to see if it changes the nature of the colouration that you are hearing ...
Hopefully the coloured midrange isn't inherent to the driver itself or related to the width of the cabinet ...
Freddi's suggestion of a Keystone style aperture could also be an interesting experiment .. .
Freddi ,
Jessman's work looks very nice! .. How does it sound?
about your question regarding a K-style aperture on a Tapped Horn, it could be done, the additional mass loading would shift the tuning of the cabinet downward ...
Freddi , i have something interesting to share with you and i think you might appreciate this: Yesterday i took a very close look at the front chamber area in the simple Karlflex (from post #1611) and added together every bit of air volume in every part of the front chamber including the Freddi-mod stub and even the air in the mouth and in the driver's cone and it ended up being about 20 liters in a 60 liter Karlflex, leaving about 40 liters for the rear chamber (if i am calculating this correctly) which would give us an approximate 2:1 ratio ! I wasn't necessarily shooting for the classic 2:1 ratio but by some synchronicity that is just about where it ended up
Hi freddi,
I have not done any work on the regular Karlson (e.g.: the K15, or X15A) in Hornresp.
I just use Hornresp to get an initial file to go over to AkAbak. I also have not finished the work on Posts #1188/1668 (see: attached current Quick TRY on the 1188/1668). Note that this does not include any additional external ducts/stubs; that needs to be added in AkAbak, and the location of the terminus is only a guess. Not having the Karlson aperture will make it difficult to get anything of value in the Mids and Highs, the very low end (<100Hz) should be OK.
xrk971 is the man for all of this, I admire the amount and quality of work he has put out on this subject.
Regards,
I have not done any work on the regular Karlson (e.g.: the K15, or X15A) in Hornresp.
I just use Hornresp to get an initial file to go over to AkAbak. I also have not finished the work on Posts #1188/1668 (see: attached current Quick TRY on the 1188/1668). Note that this does not include any additional external ducts/stubs; that needs to be added in AkAbak, and the location of the terminus is only a guess. Not having the Karlson aperture will make it difficult to get anything of value in the Mids and Highs, the very low end (<100Hz) should be OK.
xrk971 is the man for all of this, I admire the amount and quality of work he has put out on this subject.
Regards,
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Matthew:
If so i would suspect that perhaps a resonance or reflection from the back chamber is making it's way back through the cone?
That is a very good assumption, so I stuffed more felt pads + made more brasing.
The problem is still there
Looking a FR from manufactor in post 1801, it shows that 150-400 hz is pronounced, so the problem could very well be driver related.
I have some old classic Electric Voice 15" drivers I could try instead. They are said to have very good mid - upper bass.
Freddi:
Did the tall aperture do any better than the short height aperture? - or both too colored to make a judgement?
All K apertures was having big problems. The best so far is round.
By the way nice sub, wish my woodworking skills was up to that standard.
If so i would suspect that perhaps a resonance or reflection from the back chamber is making it's way back through the cone?
That is a very good assumption, so I stuffed more felt pads + made more brasing.
The problem is still there
Looking a FR from manufactor in post 1801, it shows that 150-400 hz is pronounced, so the problem could very well be driver related.
I have some old classic Electric Voice 15" drivers I could try instead. They are said to have very good mid - upper bass.
Freddi:
Did the tall aperture do any better than the short height aperture? - or both too colored to make a judgement?
All K apertures was having big problems. The best so far is round.
By the way nice sub, wish my woodworking skills was up to that standard.
maybe the cavity versus aperture isn't as favorable as it might be - then again you had very good graphs and it could be an energy storage problem. A lot of times I don't like direct radiators as well as Ks but have heard things in "some" K's which are probably worse than what your K-flex is doing.
here's the little Acoustic Control 115BK - more a midbass device, with about 1 cubic foot in the front chamber and two cubic foot total airspace in its rear chambers - - 3/8" steel threaded rod braces makes its 3/4" wings pretty stiff
that "sub" is about an 80Hz hypex folded horn - hoping it will do 80-900Hz with the right driver (whatever that may be - lol)
about the only thing I'd change on the 115BK might be port area - or experiment splitting the port by putting a piece in the middle
to create two ports and enlarge the reflector surface area. It plays pretty well with no damping material.
here's the little Acoustic Control 115BK - more a midbass device, with about 1 cubic foot in the front chamber and two cubic foot total airspace in its rear chambers - - 3/8" steel threaded rod braces makes its 3/4" wings pretty stiff
that "sub" is about an 80Hz hypex folded horn - hoping it will do 80-900Hz with the right driver (whatever that may be - lol)
about the only thing I'd change on the 115BK might be port area - or experiment splitting the port by putting a piece in the middle
to create two ports and enlarge the reflector surface area. It plays pretty well with no damping material.
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Freddi:
maybe the cavity versus aperture isn't as favorable as it might be - then again you had very good graphs and it could be an energy storage problem.
Yes the FR is not terrible, but the sound even with all this EQ "smoothing" the sound is stil nasal and odd. Especial snare drums has a hollow whack or ring to it...very odd.
If I came into a room and heard this speaker for the first time, I would think it was seriously flawed.
Here is the amount of DSP to make it listenable
maybe the cavity versus aperture isn't as favorable as it might be - then again you had very good graphs and it could be an energy storage problem.
Yes the FR is not terrible, but the sound
even with all this EQ "smoothing" the sound is stil nasal and odd. Especial snare drums has a hollow whack or ring to it...very odd.If I came into a room and heard this speaker for the first time, I would think it was seriously flawed.
Here is the amount of DSP to make it listenable
i'm kind of hard of hearing - plus that horn is 2 thousand miles away
Ok, i see, you don't have it yet ...
What driver did you have in mind for it?
and yes, 21.3 liters is precisely how it added up for the front chamber (in what is roughly a 60 liter net cab) and i rounded the figure down to 20 liters to be conservative ..
Freddi, do you recall why the designers of the original Karlson went with the 2:1 ratio? Did they ever even make any statement about why they stuck with 2:1?
When Sebastian and I were doing our Karlflex scripting in Akabak we both noticed that when the front chamber was made too large we would see new dips and peaks appear in the midrange and upper-midrange, and the various lengths of stubs in the stack were supposed to manage those irregularities in response which worked well in Akabak simulation, but unfortunately the real world is often a different story ...
You are like Sherlock Holmes on a speaker investigation
Ok , i see, good job on the extra damping behind the driver, that is exactly what i had in mind but if this extra damping did not effect the undesirable colouration in the slightest i suppose that means we can take the rear chamber off of our list of potential culprits .......
Through the process of elimination we can figure out this mystery
If you remove the front panel altogether and the colouration goes away completely then we know the issue revolves around the front chamber , and in that case maybe it is just as Freddi suggested (an energy storage problem) which would require a lot more damping/stuffing in the front chamber or a much reduced front chamber volume by falling back to the classic ratio ......
Trying out the ElectroVoice 15" driver in your Karlflex could also be an enlightening and revealing experiment
Matthew:
If so i would suspect that perhaps a resonance or reflection from the back chamber is making it's way back through the cone?
That is a very good assumption, so I stuffed more felt pads + made more brasing.
View attachment 517362
The problem is still there
Looking a FR from manufactor in post 1801, it shows that 150-400 hz is pronounced, so the problem could very well be driver related.
I have some old classic Electric Voice 15" drivers I could try instead. They are said to have very good mid - upper bass.
Ok , i see, good job on the extra damping behind the driver, that is exactly what i had in mind
but if this extra damping did not effect the undesirable colouration in the slightest i suppose that means we can take the rear chamber off of our list of potential culprits ....... Through the process of elimination we can figure out this mystery
If you remove the front panel altogether and the colouration goes away completely then we know the issue revolves around the front chamber , and in that case maybe it is just as Freddi suggested (an energy storage problem) which would require a lot more damping/stuffing in the front chamber or a much reduced front chamber volume by falling back to the classic ratio ......
Trying out the ElectroVoice 15" driver in your Karlflex could also be an enlightening and revealing experiment
115BK, my tall K18,X15 K12, Karlsonator all seem "listenable" with favorable drivers - not as bad as say my Klipschorns which sound "indirect" . Alan Parson's "soundcheck" sax is very nice, K15 was great on "The Spirit Of Koussevitzsky" with my 604. - they do sound different than direct radiator or horn. A decent size K should not need front chamber damping but little tricks might help. Those little L slotted pipes are nice if the woofer can reach high enough. MMJ - how high would you guess PA310 in a folded horn to mate with a mid-horn? it doesn't calculate real high with hornresp but your measurements look like it might do better than prediction (?) My little midbass horn got some lacquer - wish Jesse had a driver to fire it up
drivers I have to try on the horn are:Kappa12a, a Community "buyout" 12 with decent size motor, B&C 12PE32, a couple of
Eminence 12cx and maybe my loan 12" P-Audio BM12CXA - hopefully something will work reasonably well.
http://i.imgur.com/7E9h3Bz.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/N1LPBMZ.jpg
drivers I have to try on the horn are:Kappa12a, a Community "buyout" 12 with decent size motor, B&C 12PE32, a couple of
Eminence 12cx and maybe my loan 12" P-Audio BM12CXA - hopefully something will work reasonably well.
http://i.imgur.com/7E9h3Bz.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/N1LPBMZ.jpg
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Post #1831
Hi freddi,
Just another comment on your question from Post #1831 about simulating Karlson enclosures in Hornresp.
I simulated the core (w/o additional ducts or stubs) of the box form 1188/1668 in Hornresp to see what would happen if I tilt the driver mounting baffel 4° or 20°, in Hornresp there is very little difference, as I cannot figure out a method to make Hornresp account correctly for the increasse front volume. But, Hornresp does give me a rough idea which direction I have to go to modify the length of the individual sections to arrive @ a smooth bottom frequency response (in this case: increase L12). Hornresp's Export gives me a quick starting file for AkAbak. We need one more section-please.
Anyway, thought you might find this interesting. Do you think 4° or 20° would be better sonically for the driver baffle?
Regards,
Hi freddi,
Just another comment on your question from Post #1831 about simulating Karlson enclosures in Hornresp.
I simulated the core (w/o additional ducts or stubs) of the box form 1188/1668 in Hornresp to see what would happen if I tilt the driver mounting baffel 4° or 20°, in Hornresp there is very little difference, as I cannot figure out a method to make Hornresp account correctly for the increasse front volume. But, Hornresp does give me a rough idea which direction I have to go to modify the length of the individual sections to arrive @ a smooth bottom frequency response (in this case: increase L12). Hornresp's Export gives me a quick starting file for AkAbak. We need one more section-please.
Anyway, thought you might find this interesting. Do you think 4° or 20° would be better sonically for the driver baffle?
Regards,