Stereophile mag Oct 2007
"I don't have a problem with using ICs in a product. There are some decent sounding opamps. However I have a problem with companies like Graham Slee selling $1200-1400 phono preamps with $15-20 total parts bill as in the September Issue of Stereophile."
labjr
As you are undoubtedly aware, Graham Slee is not a DiyAudio
member. Thus he has no right of reply to your attack on GSP Audio business practices, quality of products,or other comments .
Graham Slee has asked me to pass on a request for you to discuss this issue with him in open forum at Rock Grotto Audio Forum, where he will be delighted to respond to the issues that you have raised. To facilitate Graham's right of reply, perhaps you could temporarily register as a Rock Grotto member (free). You will be able to start a thread regarding this matter in the Graham Slee section, without delay, and under no moderation.
The ball is in your court.
SandyK
"I don't have a problem with using ICs in a product. There are some decent sounding opamps. However I have a problem with companies like Graham Slee selling $1200-1400 phono preamps with $15-20 total parts bill as in the September Issue of Stereophile."
labjr
As you are undoubtedly aware, Graham Slee is not a DiyAudio
member. Thus he has no right of reply to your attack on GSP Audio business practices, quality of products,or other comments .
Graham Slee has asked me to pass on a request for you to discuss this issue with him in open forum at Rock Grotto Audio Forum, where he will be delighted to respond to the issues that you have raised. To facilitate Graham's right of reply, perhaps you could temporarily register as a Rock Grotto member (free). You will be able to start a thread regarding this matter in the Graham Slee section, without delay, and under no moderation.
The ball is in your court.
SandyK
Stereophile mag Oct 2007
Sy
I fully realise this. However he would be under moderation for a period of time. It is possible that the discussion may become "animated" and perhaps moderated, whereas in Rock Grotto, labjr is free to say exactly what he means. Considering the tone of his posts, and despite conciliatory posts by a couple of well respected DiyAudio members, he chose to continue ,with
disreregard to any damage he may be causing to GSP Audio.
I feel that is only fitting, that any further discussion should occur in Graham Slee's own section of Rock Grotto.
Graham invited me to direct labjr directly to a reply, but as I am a member of both forums, I felt this was inappropiate.
SandyK
Sy
I fully realise this. However he would be under moderation for a period of time. It is possible that the discussion may become "animated" and perhaps moderated, whereas in Rock Grotto, labjr is free to say exactly what he means. Considering the tone of his posts, and despite conciliatory posts by a couple of well respected DiyAudio members, he chose to continue ,with
disreregard to any damage he may be causing to GSP Audio.
I feel that is only fitting, that any further discussion should occur in Graham Slee's own section of Rock Grotto.
Graham invited me to direct labjr directly to a reply, but as I am a member of both forums, I felt this was inappropiate.
SandyK
I'll happily unmoderate Graham when his first appears in the queue. It's to his benefit- we have the largest audience of any diy site.
We do have restrictions on personal attacks and insults, and if that's his style, perhaps it would be better for someone who prefers that sort of thing to professional and technical discourse to do it elsewhere. But I have a hard time imagining someone thinking, "Wow, the one thing I really want in life is to have someone calling me names on an Internet forum!"
I don't know the products or the designer at all so have nothing useful to contribute past my usual, "if the price is significantly more than five times BOM, you're being ripped off."
We do have restrictions on personal attacks and insults, and if that's his style, perhaps it would be better for someone who prefers that sort of thing to professional and technical discourse to do it elsewhere. But I have a hard time imagining someone thinking, "Wow, the one thing I really want in life is to have someone calling me names on an Internet forum!"
I don't know the products or the designer at all so have nothing useful to contribute past my usual, "if the price is significantly more than five times BOM, you're being ripped off."
Stereophile mag Oct 2007
"we have the largest audience of any diy site."
Sy
How could I possibly disagree with that statement ?
However we are talking about a commercial product , from a small English manufacturer.
Unfortunately , some (many ?) DiyAudio members think that it is quite acceptable to "clone" commercial products , as do many Asian manufacturers.
I do not feel that Graham Slee would get a great deal of support in this forum for that very reason. labjr has had his say in this forum. Why not let Graham Slee reply in a forum that is more symathetic to his point of view ?
SandyK
"we have the largest audience of any diy site."
Sy
How could I possibly disagree with that statement ?
However we are talking about a commercial product , from a small English manufacturer.
Unfortunately , some (many ?) DiyAudio members think that it is quite acceptable to "clone" commercial products , as do many Asian manufacturers.
I do not feel that Graham Slee would get a great deal of support in this forum for that very reason. labjr has had his say in this forum. Why not let Graham Slee reply in a forum that is more symathetic to his point of view ?
SandyK
SY said:
Now you are really gonna tick off every manufacturer of an A-Rated product on Stereophile's yearly compendium.
Seriously, if you remove the materials and machining expense of that "solid billet of aluminum" you begin to get the extent to which the visible design aspects of high end audio dominate.
The position of Graham Slee is a difficult one. I was - up to a degree - in the same boat, in regard to home-based UK made products I've tried to sell. However for me it was just a hobby and I did not make any money (and I've invested very little - mostly my own time) and I did not make any real effort to promote what I did 
. For me it was (and still is) - mostly fun. For Graham it is a business. It is not easy to sell products in this situation. The almost only way is to create an "aura" of something special. That is the way of all high-end manufacturers nowadays.
It is like that - either we have this kind of products with a high price tag or we don't have these at all. If people are buying GSA products - that it is their choice. It is better to be completely honest about what you do however I suspect that the majority of much more serious hifi businesses use a lot of marketing BS (most of which is not necessarily dishonest - just meaningless ) . Graham is a good salesman and has a good range of products - there is nothing wrong with that, so I would say: good luck to him!
People who complain about prices are usually those who have no idea what is involved in making a product to sell - and then sell it. Gordy did post a good list - though I think it is not a complete list .
Alex
. For me it was (and still is) - mostly fun. For Graham it is a business. It is not easy to sell products in this situation. The almost only way is to create an "aura" of something special. That is the way of all high-end manufacturers nowadays. It is like that - either we have this kind of products with a high price tag or we don't have these at all. If people are buying GSA products - that it is their choice. It is better to be completely honest about what you do however I suspect that the majority of much more serious hifi businesses use a lot of marketing BS (most of which is not necessarily dishonest - just meaningless
) . Graham is a good salesman and has a good range of products - there is nothing wrong with that, so I would say: good luck to him! People who complain about prices are usually those who have no idea what is involved in making a product to sell - and then sell it. Gordy did post a good list - though I think it is not a complete list
.Alex
I'm probably not going to another forum to hear an explanation about Graham Slee products. For what? So they can justify what they are charging for their products?
I have nothing against the guy personally. I never even heard of him until recently when I saw his products reviewed in Stereophile.
I don't agree with many companies who make and sell seemingly disproportionately expensive high end audio products through magazine reviews.
The only reason I commented about the Graham Slee product is because Mikey Fremer just happened to take the cover off a product last month. I was surprised how little this thing must have cost to make. Mikey even commented about the parts inside.
I can't see buying products that have virtually no tangible value to them. In my opinion this translates to no resale value. Then next years model seems to get a rave review and the old one is worth less than trying to sell used diamonds.
How am I damaging his business?
Surely, anyone considering his products would most likely be reading magazine reviews. Not reading my opinion on an internet forum.
I have nothing against the guy personally. I never even heard of him until recently when I saw his products reviewed in Stereophile.
I don't agree with many companies who make and sell seemingly disproportionately expensive high end audio products through magazine reviews.
The only reason I commented about the Graham Slee product is because Mikey Fremer just happened to take the cover off a product last month. I was surprised how little this thing must have cost to make. Mikey even commented about the parts inside.
I can't see buying products that have virtually no tangible value to them. In my opinion this translates to no resale value. Then next years model seems to get a rave review and the old one is worth less than trying to sell used diamonds.
How am I damaging his business?
Surely, anyone considering his products would most likely be reading magazine reviews. Not reading my opinion on an internet forum.
labjr said:
Maybe we should start a separate thread about cloning Graham Slee's phono designs. It may turn out to be lots of fun. And a lot more realistic than cloning a Blowtorch. My corner shop seems to carry most of the parts too
Don't know about the sophisticated pcb layout though...Attachments
Thanks for the responses (couple pages back) but I don't think I am going to get answers. I don't think we know it all about measuring (or anything) and what signals used to excite the amp. I liked seeing some ideas on different signals but that seem to die fast. Why couldn't a complex waveform, like a sample of music, be used to test and then an FFT run on the signal and amp signal. Comparing the two FFTs shoud show what is added/changed by the amp. Sort of like the differential method. Would this give meaningful info? Of course, A FFT is a snapshot in time at a single point but it should be possible to have a sample of music that can have an FFT run at the same point in time. Seems this is not out of the reach with all the computer test equipment available now. I have a lowly AP One system but don't know how to trigger the FFT at the same point in time.
Have any of you listening test guys done full blind testing? Say 5 control amps and 5 modified amps, the same mod) and then listen to the 10 amps and try to pick out the 5 that are 'good'? This should give you some idea of errors in listening, shouldn't it? How can you be sure two amps sound the same? I ask because I don't listen very well so need to learn more on this subject.
-SL
Have any of you listening test guys done full blind testing? Say 5 control amps and 5 modified amps, the same mod) and then listen to the 10 amps and try to pick out the 5 that are 'good'? This should give you some idea of errors in listening, shouldn't it? How can you be sure two amps sound the same? I ask because I don't listen very well so need to learn more on this subject.
-SL
Any input on what the distortion components are of the green waveform? The axis are not correct as this is the output from the AP reading and the AP has level adjustment internal. But the shape should be some indication. The signal (large waveform) is 20kHz. Due to the limitations of the AP I can't do an FFT to see distortion products of a 20kHz signal. I also don't have a really nice spectrum analyzer that will do such frequency ranges. The THD goes from 0.0015% up to about 0.006% when this shape shows up in the time domain distortion signal. Being a newbie (over 10 years working audio) I can't tell just from looking what the major prodcuts are. It might help me figure out why the THD rises so much in this range of operation.
Thanks to those who give ideas.
-SL
Thanks to those who give ideas.
-SL
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