Hi John,
Did you ever get round to making this MB2 clone ?
How was the Volt driver you got ? Worth the expense ?
Looks like the bass driver in the PMC IB1S and IB2S is the Precision Power PCX104 :
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/p_17780_Precision_Power_PCX104.aspx
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/p_17780_Precision_Power_PCX104.aspx
Unless it is this one, but the power rating is very high:
Precision Power PRO104 Component Car Subwoofers at Onlinecarstereo.com
Precision Power PRO104 Component Car Subwoofers at Onlinecarstereo.com
PMC used to use the Precision Power PPI10 in the IB1/2.
Afaik they now manufacture the flat piston woofers and mid domes themselves (maybe they bought the production tools for these chassis?).
Afaik they now manufacture the flat piston woofers and mid domes themselves (maybe they bought the production tools for these chassis?).
Yes, or so they say.
I wouldn't be surprised if they have a deal with the same manufacturer or some other to get them to make a model with the PMC stamp on it, something exclusive that the manufacturer cannot sell as an OEM speaker...thus making it difficult to clone this seemingly overpriced speakers (as all speakers).
Example : the other day I received an email/advert from Frederic Chaplain of Magic-Mastering.com / Prikosnovenie, who does mastering and also retails expensive audio gear, he was 'impatient to receive his new monitors', a pair of Grimm Audio LS1, that he says are super fantastic and also just so happens to be retailing for 11 900€ (15 500 US$). Well, i looked at the photo and i immediately recognized the drivers ! The tweeter costs 60$ and the woofer costs 270$.
The Madisound Speaker Store
The Madisound Speaker Store
That's an even worse driver cost to sales price ratio than the IB1S !
The more i look into it, the more it seems that DIY is the way to go. I'm sick & tired of paying 10 times the cost of the drivers for a box & some crossovers.
In terms of PMC, yes the speakers are overpriced. But you can't put it down only on the plain cost of the drivers.
There is much more relevant to the sales price eg. the costs of labor (if you don't manufacture high quantities in the likes of china) of R&D and warranty.
If you take the Grimm LS1, the woodworking isn't cheap, the electronic components aren't that cheap (Hypex DLCP, NCore).
I have built a pair of PMC AML2 clones myself, but they didn't come out cheap (although I only paid only about 50€ for a pair of the original pmc woofers).
There is much more relevant to the sales price eg. the costs of labor (if you don't manufacture high quantities in the likes of china) of R&D and warranty.
If you take the Grimm LS1, the woodworking isn't cheap, the electronic components aren't that cheap (Hypex DLCP, NCore).
I have built a pair of PMC AML2 clones myself, but they didn't come out cheap (although I only paid only about 50€ for a pair of the original pmc woofers).
Yes, i am aware of that, but the commercial ones must look good: thats costs but brings nothing to the sound quality.
The woofers in the Grimm LS1 were also chosen partly for their looks...
The R&D doesnt seem that pushed with PMC. Their 'Advanced Transmission Line' is hardly advanced IMO. The rest is quite straight forward.
I am stubborn: i will have a go at doing at least as good on a few hundred euros.
Well, you are right that "a good look" costs some money. But I have to say, I like my speakers even in the studio to look good. If you don't need that, then you have a good point in cutting costs.
As far as the LS1 and picking the Excel just for the optics is wrong. The first prototypes had the 18W Scan Speak Revelator and the Peerless HDS tweeter (now also Scan Speak). They use what fits the design goals. (They even have a very good white paper to read about their approach in speaker design).
As far as the LS1 and picking the Excel just for the optics is wrong. The first prototypes had the 18W Scan Speak Revelator and the Peerless HDS tweeter (now also Scan Speak). They use what fits the design goals. (They even have a very good white paper to read about their approach in speaker design).
I like to crank it up once in a while..I measured 110-115db at 14 feet away.In order to accomplish this with PMC,it would have cost me $50,000 with their speakers.So I DIY!!
Matter a fact,I have 2 PMC modified active 10BLR crossovers and a standard Bryston 10BLR wich will do a 4-way speaker system..and I shall
Matter a fact,I have 2 PMC modified active 10BLR crossovers and a standard Bryston 10BLR wich will do a 4-way speaker system..and I shall
According to my research (see my links above) the Grimm Audio LS1 uses SEAS drivers.
I would prefer my speakers to not be ugly, for sure, especially in the studio, and so i will try to make them look good too, once i have the prototype working as i want it, but i don't think that has to be super expensive either : it's more about skills (which i don't have yet, but i know someone who makes cellos & guitars, i think he will have them).
The ridiculous price tag on all these speakers and pretty much every other model is not due to high manufacturing costs nor expensive drivers, it is due to MASSIVE retailer margins (up to 70%), very high distributor margins (40%+) and VAT.
I didn't say it was chosen JUST for looks, but i am certain they would not have put some ugly driver in there, even if it had superior sound and cost less: design is a MUST in expensive speakers...and indeed cheaper speakers are usually very ugly or simply boring. The LS1 is gimmicky IMO, it has a very unusual width vs. depth and is basically a piece of furniture in itself, it's looking for originality and the aesthetics were clearly a major part of the goal with this design. Having said that i'm not saying it's not a great design, i have not heard it and at 12.000€ i can't really see the point since i hope i will never be dumb enough to pay that sort of cash for a speaker where drivers represent 5% of the sales price. I want a bit better for myself than a 12.000€ speaker, i want a 1200 € home made 3 way that kicks the hell out of that wimpy 2 way. ;-p
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The top-of-the-range Quested HM415 monitors have a list price of $68k and contain $22k worth of hardware (not counting wood, labour etc) which I find reasonable.
A guy with a studio in Mexico bought a pair and Roger Quested himself came along to supervise the installation at no extra cost.
It's a better ratio, it's still a Corvette's worth of margin.
At that price i too would fly out to the other side of the world for "free" to help the client, and i'd treat myself to a 5 star hotel in the process.
Acceptable if you're a millionaire.
I'll go with my 1500$ design.
Personally I think it's a good deal considering that Wilson Audio charges an extra $20k-30k for set up on top of their $100k+ passive speakers.
Personally I think Wilson Audio is a good deal considering that Even More Expensive Audio charges a million dollars for set up on top of their $10 million passive speakers.[/QUOTE]
@rick
Now I know why I chose this particular bass unit. I always believed I did it because its pistonic behaviour insured that the DSP correction remained meaningful off axis. But now I finally know the truth. Thanks for pointing it out to me.
Since you also appear to have access to the correct calculation of BOM, labour and margin structure, would you mind letting me have it so I can correct ours.
Now I know why I chose this particular bass unit. I always believed I did it because its pistonic behaviour insured that the DSP correction remained meaningful off axis. But now I finally know the truth. Thanks for pointing it out to me.
Since you also appear to have access to the correct calculation of BOM, labour and margin structure, would you mind letting me have it so I can correct ours.
What i do know is that some big speaker brands impose up to 70% margin on their retailers, ie they force them to sell with massive margins.
Remove 20% VAT, say 50% retailer margin, 30-40% for distributor, 20% for manufacturer...and you are left with...
...25$ tweeters and a DIY cloned speaker that will approach the original so closely for so much less that any difference wont matter to anyone except the snobs who want "the real thing".
My favorite retailer wouldnt even sell me the speakers i wanted because he was too cheap and the manufacturer didnt want to ruin their image with him, so they wouldnt sell to him.
Problem is: which retailer will accept to sell a clone that yields only 200€ margin when the original cost as much or even less but will yield 3000€ ?
Same for the distributor.
And same sort of issue with the press, who play the game and take the full page advertising money...none of which is possible without all those massive margins.
I'm not a big fan of the traditional value chain either. But when you're trying to make a living in audio it's either that or trying your hand at organizing worldwide direct sales. I don't suppose the costs, risks and pitfalls need spelling out.
And let's say that the assumption that having identified the drive units equates with being able to knock off a copy might be underestimating the problem (or the people who designed the original) a little.
And let's say that the assumption that having identified the drive units equates with being able to knock off a copy might be underestimating the problem (or the people who designed the original) a little.
I get what you're saying and know that my competence is almost as low as my experience in this domain. However, i dont need to make something that sounds the same, and different isn't always "less good". At 1/5 of the retail price i dont need to make something exactly as good nor exactly the same. Most people who buy such speakers do so without hearing them anyway because finding a pair of demo PMC or Grimm Audio speakers is almost impossible unless you are in a capital of the G8.
The fact is that because of all these middlemen the customer ends up paying approx 10 times the cost of making the product. Some are more than happy to do that, because it's "exclusive" or simply because they have no clue they are buying something so cheap since everyone is playing ball and taking a nice slice of cake along the way.
Internet is spreading info, however, and making loooooots of gear available all over the world. And lets face it, most speakers are nothing so complex that one cannot get close with a bit of trial & error and examination. Most commercial speakers are actually outperformed by dozens of DIY designs that cost a lot lot less. So getting good results for cheap is quite possible even for an experienced git like me, with a bit of reflection that is.
I cant afford bigger PMCs or the Grimm Audio LS1, and i wont manage to create an exact copy of the IB1S, but even if i get to 80% of their quality at 20% of their price i'll be happy and i think a few paupers might be too.
I own a pair of TB2i...i may well have a go at cloning those too, and then i can compare them side by side.
The fact is that because of all these middlemen the customer ends up paying approx 10 times the cost of making the product. Some are more than happy to do that, because it's "exclusive" or simply because they have no clue they are buying something so cheap since everyone is playing ball and taking a nice slice of cake along the way.
Internet is spreading info, however, and making loooooots of gear available all over the world. And lets face it, most speakers are nothing so complex that one cannot get close with a bit of trial & error and examination. Most commercial speakers are actually outperformed by dozens of DIY designs that cost a lot lot less. So getting good results for cheap is quite possible even for an experienced git like me, with a bit of reflection that is.
I cant afford bigger PMCs or the Grimm Audio LS1, and i wont manage to create an exact copy of the IB1S, but even if i get to 80% of their quality at 20% of their price i'll be happy and i think a few paupers might be too.
I own a pair of TB2i...i may well have a go at cloning those too, and then i can compare them side by side.
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