Yeah a ultramaximizer L1 ( limiter) or worst a multiband limiter mastering oriented plug in ( L2) to tame the bass... for a debutant doing covers of ArticMonkeys... makes no sense at all. 🙄
Plug into a disto box it'll be much more enjoyable than a brickwall limiter developed to make 1/2db limiting at max used to blast all dynamic into a signal...
Crocobar, If your daughter needs to be more in control of dynamic it's in the fingers it happen. So she will have to play,play and play to gain experience.
Meanwhile the integrated comp in the stompbox will protect gear after it.
Plug ins are for mixing mainly. In live they induce latency which can be bothersome. Learn to play well first, all this will come later ( if any needs arise).
Stompbox are made to be played: plug turn a knob then play, forget about them and focus on enjoyment. Enough 90% of time.
Plug into a disto box it'll be much more enjoyable than a brickwall limiter developed to make 1/2db limiting at max used to blast all dynamic into a signal...
Crocobar, If your daughter needs to be more in control of dynamic it's in the fingers it happen. So she will have to play,play and play to gain experience.
Meanwhile the integrated comp in the stompbox will protect gear after it.
Plug ins are for mixing mainly. In live they induce latency which can be bothersome. Learn to play well first, all this will come later ( if any needs arise).
Stompbox are made to be played: plug turn a knob then play, forget about them and focus on enjoyment. Enough 90% of time.
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As someone who has been using compressors for decades now, don't worry about using compression until you've recorded the track. They are more likely to teach you bad habits than to fix any problems if you use them while recording or practicing.
Once you have a track recorded and in the DAW, there are 90,000,000 compressors to choose from.
I enjoy singing in a loud, powerful voice and have found that some compression on the mic input gives a great effect, especially in conjunction with over driving the D-pre. I can't say the same for other brand preamp sections, as some like the cheap Samsons sound great, while to me some like the expensive Soundcrafts sound weak. On the other hand, my wife and daughter are very quiet vocalists and need a lot of gain on the mic preamp for a good level. Lifting the gain is what lifts the noise as well as makes it more prone to feedback. Just make sure that you have enough clean gain for any intended participants, enough compression, noise gate, limiters to tame anything when need arises
I enjoyed your interest in DIY when you started out here. Allow me to suggest taking a more relaxed approach, have some fun and leave the expensive stuff for later consideration as you build more hands-on experience with use
You already have a monitoring system and guitar pedals with all the eq and comp that you are happy with for now, right?
Build two clean DIY mic preamps, plenty of help here. Put a pad on that so that you can connect each of your guitar to each channel when not using the mics. Feed this into your computer's stereo line input. Many modern computers have fairly acceptable performance on the line input. Record that into Reaper into individual channels and have your speakers plugged into the computer's line output. This way you can monitor, record and replay in real time. You will only need to touch the mouse to hit the record button
You can make a DIY summing amp and then feed more of your DIY pres into that pc line input. That's all a mixer is anyway at its basic, channel strips and a summing amp. Have some cheap DIY fun, build some experience and save up for better than A&H 10fx. It only cost me a few dollars to build a jfet based channel strip and summing amp. Opamp based ones are even cheaper. Doing this you can beat the sound quality of the sub $500 consoles and their reliability as you will know each component in the system. I moved up from bread boarding the jfets to tubes and messed with it enough to end up with my Uf'fornica preamp for vocals and bass. I really don't have need for my Yamaha MG12xu unless DJ'ing with a small band. The tube preamps will feed into the MX-1s analog line inputs once setup
My Uf'fornica concept and its bad reception here. This will get on the new desk by the time the renovations are complete as well as my new DIY monitors
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/uffornica-homestage-concept-design-and-build-log.391366/
Have a little think about making a simple DIY mixer with two sets of line inputs for each of your pedals and two mic channels, channel by channel. This will only cost a few dollars to make and plenty of guidance here. Its a DIY site after all!
I enjoyed your interest in DIY when you started out here. Allow me to suggest taking a more relaxed approach, have some fun and leave the expensive stuff for later consideration as you build more hands-on experience with use
You already have a monitoring system and guitar pedals with all the eq and comp that you are happy with for now, right?
Build two clean DIY mic preamps, plenty of help here. Put a pad on that so that you can connect each of your guitar to each channel when not using the mics. Feed this into your computer's stereo line input. Many modern computers have fairly acceptable performance on the line input. Record that into Reaper into individual channels and have your speakers plugged into the computer's line output. This way you can monitor, record and replay in real time. You will only need to touch the mouse to hit the record button
You can make a DIY summing amp and then feed more of your DIY pres into that pc line input. That's all a mixer is anyway at its basic, channel strips and a summing amp. Have some cheap DIY fun, build some experience and save up for better than A&H 10fx. It only cost me a few dollars to build a jfet based channel strip and summing amp. Opamp based ones are even cheaper. Doing this you can beat the sound quality of the sub $500 consoles and their reliability as you will know each component in the system. I moved up from bread boarding the jfets to tubes and messed with it enough to end up with my Uf'fornica preamp for vocals and bass. I really don't have need for my Yamaha MG12xu unless DJ'ing with a small band. The tube preamps will feed into the MX-1s analog line inputs once setup
My Uf'fornica concept and its bad reception here. This will get on the new desk by the time the renovations are complete as well as my new DIY monitors
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/uffornica-homestage-concept-design-and-build-log.391366/
Have a little think about making a simple DIY mixer with two sets of line inputs for each of your pedals and two mic channels, channel by channel. This will only cost a few dollars to make and plenty of guidance here. Its a DIY site after all!
Oh, I know. And by the same token drummers shouldn't need their drums time-aligned. Vocalists shouldn't need Autotune and or Vocalign, either. But all that stuff goes on in the real world a lot more often than people would like to admit.
However, would I fully agree that its far better take the time to learn how to play and not be in a rush to go too far too fast.
That was me. You want to leave the high dynamic range stuff to the final recording / performance, not during "practice" or "rehearsal". Traditional band instruments cant do that, but with vocal mics and electric instruments, you can. Let's say it makes the whole experience much more pleasant for everyone involved.
Too bad about Behringer. I think they skirt the line of "cheap" too closely and sometimes go over with some stuff. In the fashionable "free returns" retail environment, it's not that much of a risk to buy something and then say you dont like it for some subjective reason; output is too noisy, doesnt distort in a pleasant way, blues setting not blue enough, box gets too hot. You can even request that on ebay if a used product is defective.
Cost of doing business for anyone selling something.
That is the best advice one could gives to a beginer: first learn to setup gain for a clean recording ( no clipping, no distortion, sufficient headroom in order to leave 'space' for future digital treatments).
If possible learn to master the dynamic of your instrument in your playing. It is what differenciate 'good' musicians from the other in my experience ( especially drumers).
Randy, yes you can diy everything. Including a console. But it's not something i would recommend as a first project as it is a daunting task if you want something usable in a reasonable amount of time.
I think it is safer to invest in some gear known to be ok at first and from there develop anything needed diy in //.
If interested in this Crocobar, then the sky is the limit ( really!). But it'll need a bit of study... if you are interested i have some readings about summing buss typology and a series oof article about development of a whole studio desk availlable. Just ask.
If you find any limitation regarding compressor for voice there is a billion projects availlable diy (It is true for preamp and eq too).
But same limitation apply: do you want to make music or develop skills to be a studio technician*?
So if you need a compressor for voice and still have time to perform music then don't look further than a FMR RNC 1773.
Entry level unit you might encounter in multibillion dollar control room as it sound (really) good ( if you look for transparent compression) and is easy to setup ( you do once then forget about it and play music).
If looking for diy here again we can help i'm sure. I heard a diy unit (a student did as an end study project in the audio engineering school i worked in) close to RNC results even easier to setup with 3 knobs... require to find a specific discontinued optocoupler's cell though and design a board... most diy project have challenging side!
I will not dismiss the second approach as it is the path i've choosen. But it require time and involvement and won't be cheap longterm and time being limited music might need to take second plane... it is a personal choice.
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The thing about using FMR RNC (used to have one myself) is that if not using it for tracking then maybe better to skip it and do any compression in the box. Otherwise, an already recorded track would have to pass through a DAC, through the RNC, and then back in through an ADC in order to apply the compressor effect. Maybe its worth it, maybe not. For myself, once 'in the box' (i.e. in a DAW) I try to stay there as much as possible. Extra passes through data converters take their toll, is the way I feel about it anyway.
In any case, if you can afford it then an FMC RNC can be a good way to have something decent you can use to start learning about how to use a hardware compressor.
Regarding in the box processing, the Universal Audio hardware effects processor plugins include some pretty high quality ones. That's one reason to consider an Apollo recording interface, because of its built in DSP capability.
In any case, if you can afford it then an FMC RNC can be a good way to have something decent you can use to start learning about how to use a hardware compressor.
Regarding in the box processing, the Universal Audio hardware effects processor plugins include some pretty high quality ones. That's one reason to consider an Apollo recording interface, because of its built in DSP capability.
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Well, say anything and they'll be an opinion to the contrary.
As I recall, practice and rehearsal need to be pleasant experiences, or it's just no fun even getting to the point where you can think about putting down tracks - or going out and performing in front of other people.
Having no idea what Randy's "loud, powerful voice" sounds like, I'd bet dollars to donuts he'd drive his wife and daughter right out of the studio without compression on his vocals at practice / rehearsal time. It isnt like singing through an auto-tune machine FGS...speaking for myself, I have a hard enough time just playing and singing the song at all, nevermind worrying about little vocal dynamic nuances.
As I recall, practice and rehearsal need to be pleasant experiences, or it's just no fun even getting to the point where you can think about putting down tracks - or going out and performing in front of other people.
Having no idea what Randy's "loud, powerful voice" sounds like, I'd bet dollars to donuts he'd drive his wife and daughter right out of the studio without compression on his vocals at practice / rehearsal time. It isnt like singing through an auto-tune machine FGS...speaking for myself, I have a hard enough time just playing and singing the song at all, nevermind worrying about little vocal dynamic nuances.
Actually, turns out an FMR RNC can be used to help train a singer to control dynamics. Watch the compression LEDs and try to keep them closer to a steady level when changing emotional expression, pitch, etc. Used that way it can help train a vocalist not to need drastic compression.
That type of training can be useful for other purposes too. For example, in voice over work the highest paying and considered the thing that takes the most years of experience is Trailer work. Trailer voice isn't just for movie trailers. It can be for live events too, such as the old WrestleMania "...Let's get ready to rumble..." For that type of vocal performance, very controlled dynamics and pitch are critical. Pitch is almost monotone. Try to read the "ready to rumble" like their announcer does. Its not easy to control as well has he does. Probably gets some thousands of dollars for saying it at a live event.
That type of training can be useful for other purposes too. For example, in voice over work the highest paying and considered the thing that takes the most years of experience is Trailer work. Trailer voice isn't just for movie trailers. It can be for live events too, such as the old WrestleMania "...Let's get ready to rumble..." For that type of vocal performance, very controlled dynamics and pitch are critical. Pitch is almost monotone. Try to read the "ready to rumble" like their announcer does. Its not easy to control as well has he does. Probably gets some thousands of dollars for saying it at a live event.
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Lol, you might find it silly, but this is one of my fav songs for karaoke. My voice is deeper than Kishore Kumar but suits his style with a some almost yelling. With this song, on my mixer on channel 3 of the MG12XU. Bass, mid and treble at unity. Comp at halfway. Fader at unity. Slight amount of gain. That what's needed to sit well in the mix and flatten out the attack at the almost shouting bits
Any analysis on how much comp is being used on Kishore's voice in the original linked here
Obviously there are multiple conflicting opinions here, and they are probably all valid.......for that person's use case and budget. This is often the case in many situations. It's like saying I need to get myself and zero to two other people to a place 100 km from here, what kind of car should I get. Honda Civic or BMW M-5? I want to lean how to play the guitar, do I buy a cheap Chinese knock off or a $2000 vintage Fender. Any of these are valid choices for the right person, but the wrong choice for many more since there are lots of options between these extremes.
I worked in cell phone and two way radio design at Motorola for a long time. The hardest thing to do is getting started with the right product. Asking 60 engineers in a room to design a phone is a recipe for disaster........been there done that.....FAILED! Get some people to the malls and find out what users like and hate about their current phones. Not just the high end mall where the engineers and marketing people shop, get to the malls and open air flea markets where the other half of the people shop too.
The first task here is to figure out exactly what you want this setup to accomplish in its first year or two, what your realistic budget is, and how you want to interact with it in that time period. Make a list of the entire setup needs like what you did in post #9. Think of possibilities for expansion or upgrades in the future. Do any of them require starting over, or can your proposed plan get there from here? Then rank the items in order of priority. It may even be worthwhile to draw a simple block diagram of all the major components. Make as many different diagrams as needed to cover any reasonable way of accomplishing your goals. Assign possible hardware choices for each block, multiple choices if available. List the advantages of each and rank them. All of this can be done in an Excel (or similar) spreadsheet if you are really into it.
You seem conflicted with the DAWless vs DAW choice. Getting a mixer with all the features you seek (especially recording) may be the right choice, but it could consume all of the budget or more. Some of the Zoom multi channel recorders have some of these capabilities as well. It is possible that you journey may take you to a point where you want to lay down one track while one or more other tracks are being played back. This affords lots of flexibility for jamming and practicing as well as music creation. Verify that your solution can do this if you see this as a possibility. I got a Teac 3440 4 track reel to reel tape deck in the late 70's for this purpose. The Teac got sold and replaced with a PC and a Media Vision PAS 16 in the early 90's and I never looked back. I used the PAS (the first 16 bit 44.1 KHz sound card) with an early DAW, Cakewalk 3 or 4, don't remember which.
Another poster chose the use of an old or second hand PC. That is my preference since I started making primitive music with a SWTPC (Tiger Amps) MC6800 computer system in 1976. I built my first PC in 1982 with parts obtained from the dumpster behind the IBM plant in Boca Raton where the PC was born. Been building them ever since. There are several DAWs that are low budget, work well on older low powered PC's, and offer multiple channel recording features. An older PC with the boot drive replaced with a $50 SSD can make the boot time as short as a few seconds. So, yes I flip the switch on my 10 year old PC and its ready for a short jam session about as quick as the tubes take to warm up on my amp. When I just want to play around with the guitar for a few minutes I don't always use the DAW, but I do use Overloud for an amp sim. There are others like it. Overloud's TH-U can go from clean to Jimi in a click of the mouse or footswitch, and I can go back to my youth with some reverb laden blackface Fender 60's surf music which is what I learned the guitar for in the first place.
I dislike Microsoft's business practices almost as much as I hate Apple's, but Windows 7 or Windows 10 are pretty well fleshed out now and work well. This is not always the case with Windows 11 which still misbehaves occasionally. A legitimate Windows 7 / 10 key can be purchased for about $20 now, so cost is not a big issue. This affords the largest possible choice in software and compatible hardware. Every time I have put Linux on a PC as a second OS, I find myself using it less and less after a few months. This goes back to my W95 / OS2 Warp / Suse 9.X / DOS with W3.2 multi boot machine in the mid 90's. The OS's got used the most in the order listed.
A simple DAW like Anvil Studio, or Mixcraft 9, and as others have mentioned Reaper (I have not tried it yet, but I will) can work fine on a low buck PC and cost under $100. There are some advantages that are obvious, and some that are not so obvious. As with anything, there are disadvantages too. A DAW will have a learning curve. At first it may seem daunting, but you don't have to learn it all at once. Pick and choose what you need to do at first and learn those points. For any popular DAW, there are lots of YouTube videos on how to use it. Complex DAWs like Ableton Live can be quite confusing at first, but you don't need to start there. A DAW, or any application for a PC will need an audio interface. You need at least two outputs, and as many inputs as you have instruments that will be playing simultaneously (or will have in the future). I have used several interfaces between the PAS in the early 90's and now. Currently I have 4 different PC's that run a DAW, some soft synths, or a virtual modular synthesizer. All of them currently use Focusrite interfaces. I also have an old MOTU MicroBook that works well, but doesn't do MIDI. Neither does the Focusrite Solo, but I don't need MIDI on that PC.
MIDI is another subject that comes into play with a computer. You mentioned an electric piano. If it has MIDI jacks, them you want to get an interface that also does MIDI. With a MIDI input the piano, or any MIDI controller can be used to play zillions of virtual instruments through the PC. If the piano has a MIDI input jack, the PC can play the piano for accompaniment.
I have found that a DAW can also be useful as a practice tool for guitar or other instruments. You can find MIDI files for lots of popular music on the web. Load one of these files into a DAW, assign a built it virtual instruments to each track and get it to play through the speakers. Then set up a new audio track for recording and plug in your guitar. Play the MIDI file while recording your guitar track at the same time. You will be trying to play the same music as the guitar track in the MIDI file either with the playback of the guitar track muted or reduced in volume. After done you can compare the differences to find where you need to improve. This can be done to add vocals to MIDI tracks too.
Glad to read a reply of mine provoked a nice, thoughtful response. I can echo the same experience with an "old pc". We're talkin' Core 2 Duo old, you know that proc Intel made "too good"? No one wants a system "that bad / old" so many literally throw them away. A little SSD and additional memory treatment helps, as it does with any pc. It's fine for recording and playing back music under Windows 10.
Anything I've found with a Windows 7 COA sticker still upgrades to W10 for free using the numbers on that tag.
Mine connects to an old M-Audio NRV10 via firewire, which required a PCI firewire card. The computer is Dell, so I got a Dell card off ebay. It works. Sometimes I play the Jazz Groove through it as a DAC, sometimes I play through it myself. I rarely attempt to make a recording, but I know it can do it using the free Cakewalk by BandLab.
Next step is to try one of those platforms for jamming with other people, connectd via the internet. No wireless; too much latency. I got the part where using a powerline ethernet extender back to my modem working.
Entirely expected and typical foreigner response when presented with something like this, especially expanding the energy on derision and missing the point entirely stuff. Allow me to educate you to something a greater population intuitively gets. The guy in the video is a professional actor and the clip is from an Indian movie. The writer has written in a place for introducing the lead male through a big song. A professional vocalist, in this case Kishore Kumar, recorded the vocals and the actor has to lip sync that. Those who get this can't help but feel respect for Kishore Kumar for his talent of matching the vocal mannerisms for the variety of male actors that he was called upon to sing for
That's all irrelevant anyway, the point is the vocals presented here. This style of vocals need compression. There are a lot of international and especially desi names logged on to this site and this kind of attitude only now drops your stature as we can well feel the mockery and hate
Are you a bigot against foreigners? You could have said what it was in a few short words in the beginning so we would all have some idea of what we were looking at. Maybe the fault lies with you? BTW, lip syncing is not unknown in live performances and it is essential in the very difficult art of voicing Anime into another language. However, when a live show is found to be lip synced here in this country without telling the audience, it is a scandal. Has nothing to do with anything foreign.
I have been requesting Crocobar to do the same since he first made an appearance on this forum. It is important to also understand that the real shopping shortlists cannot be made without hands-on experience
I, too, have noticed the conflict with DAW/DAWless as well as multitracking and overdubbing. That's the reason for recommending sticking with current gear and merging it with some DIY. Simple DAW like Reaper, current pedals, a couple of DIY opamp or jfet based pres and the computer's analog line inputs. Play with overdubbing and gets some instrument tracks down for a few dollars of DIY and current equipment. Get a feel for how things are during in use as this will replicate what can be done on an intro priced console
Honestly, if the pedals have a line level output and as Crocobar says that he is content with recording instrument by instrument and taking his time with post-processing, then why not just plug each pedal straight into the PC line in and record to a dedicated track? A simple DIY pre for mic will cover the vocals doing the same thing
Core 2 Duo old, here's my old Core 2 Quad 6600 chip on an ASUS P5Q Pro motherboard with 16GB of DDR-2 memory. It was state of the art in 2010. It ran an E-MU 1820 multi channel audio interface that had everything INCLUDING a phono stage for ripping vinyl in 24/96. I used this with Windows XP and eventually upgraded to Windows VISTA. Eventually this pc became my second or third PC as the newer Core i Something chips became available. I skipped the first gen of those, but still have a working second gen Core i5-2500K PC that I built in 2011.
I fired up the old Core 2 Quad PC a couple of years ago and it still worked. I put Windows 7 on it and gave it to my 17 year old grandkid for gaming. I swapped out the old Q6600 motherboard for a Core i5 3570K motherboard and gave it a mild overclock for his birthday last year.
The Core 2 Quad board is in the pile of stuff that I plan to take to the Dayton Hamfest to sell. It might bring $20, probably less.
True most W7 COA stickers will upgrade to W10 for free. A sticker from a PC that was covered under a blanket service contract (corporate use) will not work. However, a bunch of stickers from a pile of PC's scrapped by NASA worked just fine. If the old PC started out as an XP machine and got upgraded to W7 or was built with W7 early on before M$ started collecting hardware ID's that W7 sticker can be transferred once to a new modern PC running W10 or even W11. Just build a machine with a combination of parts that M$ has never seen before, install W10 from a download off the M$ website, then use the key from the old PC's W7 sticker. That PC will upgrade to W11 if the hardware meets the requirements.
I started out on my MIDI sequencer / primitive DAW journey with Cakewalk 3 or 4. I upgraded nearly every cycle, through Cakewalk's acquisition by Roland, then Gibson, and even paid Gibson for "lifetime updates." Shortly after lots of us fell for Gibson's lifetime updates scam they pulled the plug on development, fired the Cakewalk / Sonar team and shut it down. We got screwed. I began tinkering with Ableton Live and FL studio, but have not become fluent in either. My current simple DAW is Anvil Studio and for more complex stuff, Mixcraft 9.
No, I won't burn my Les Paul, it was a birthday present from my wife, but I will never buy another Gibson product again!
Mark, you may be right. My apologies if I read the intentions behind your reply as derision. There is an ugly thread on gearslutz where someone was trying to id the actual genre of music that was being incorporated into a Bollywood song. There is a list of reply that are all derision and not one expanding that energy with picking up the relevant. Just like your response here. May I ask you if encountering such responses could have in fact programmed some negative attitudes in me? Could you help foster a nice international community with respect towards what's going on in different scenes worldwide?
I thot the lip-syncing was obvious to all and not the point of the discussion. What about you, where does that type of response when presented with something like this come from?
From not knowing it was a movie rather than an elaborately choreographed live show. There have been some spectacular live shows here, so I don't always assume a video llke that is a movie. All the more so in this case since there were shots of an audience, and of audience reaction. Also as I said, lip syncing of live shows has been known to happen here. Moreover, I thought the observation was at most perhaps slightly amusing, nothing more than that.
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