I believe there is a simple explanation to this unusual development of a thread situation, and who knows, maybe we will find out eventually.
when I came up with it
Well, I slapped it together
Major problem is RS270S-08 woofer in such a small box
Could not use Silver Flute, sounds are smeared together, was quite surprised to hear this
I'm going to add more stuffing and aperiodic vent in the back and or add some wood to the back and maybe bottom
The tweeter is AudioPur RT7040-03 -- 8 ohm
XT25 is generally better but AudioPur RT7040-03 has even more detail and separation of sounds. especially at low levels
I should have modded the NS1000 cabs when I had those a few years ago
oh well 😀
I don't think I've come across mass produced speakers made this well
The drivers and especially the cabs are made really well
I think I will leave the attenuators and try to copy/modify Zaph's cross-over
I'm going to start with midrange cross-over and take it from there
I think I can get rid of R6; is that the only attentuation resistor?
Not sure about R14
I'm not sure where the 80uF caps came into play in this cross-over
I get a totally different value for the filters
I guess one is a notch and on is zobel or one is both
I have two 80uF caps but not 4
I think I have two 60 uF caps
Got lucky on the speaker and found two /a/d/s grills the right size
I forgot how hard it is to modify cabs
It's harder than actually building ones from scratch if you have nice/proper tools and wood
One summer I spent months modifying some Thiel CS3.5 cabs and then found out the sides and back where laminated particle board and through them out
Major problem is RS270S-08 woofer in such a small box
Could not use Silver Flute, sounds are smeared together, was quite surprised to hear this
I'm going to add more stuffing and aperiodic vent in the back and or add some wood to the back and maybe bottom
The tweeter is AudioPur RT7040-03 -- 8 ohm
XT25 is generally better but AudioPur RT7040-03 has even more detail and separation of sounds. especially at low levels
I should have modded the NS1000 cabs when I had those a few years ago
oh well 😀
I don't think I've come across mass produced speakers made this well
The drivers and especially the cabs are made really well
I think I will leave the attenuators and try to copy/modify Zaph's cross-over
I'm going to start with midrange cross-over and take it from there
I think I can get rid of R6; is that the only attentuation resistor?
Not sure about R14
I'm not sure where the 80uF caps came into play in this cross-over
I get a totally different value for the filters
I guess one is a notch and on is zobel or one is both
I have two 80uF caps but not 4
I think I have two 60 uF caps
Got lucky on the speaker and found two /a/d/s grills the right size
I forgot how hard it is to modify cabs
It's harder than actually building ones from scratch if you have nice/proper tools and wood
One summer I spent months modifying some Thiel CS3.5 cabs and then found out the sides and back where laminated particle board and through them out
Attachments
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Can I use Rifa Miniprint MP Metallized paper caps for 80uF caps and .3uF caps?
Tweeter cap values don't seem to be ones that I can calculate
I would use 4th order for tweeter but I don't know if 180 degree phase will have verse consiquence, so I will stick with third order for 8 ohm nominal impedance
Woofer section I won't really change
I don't seem to get anywhere close to 80uF for the zobel filters in any calculator
I added more polyfil and woofer got better, I think it just needs aperiodic vent and it will be okay
Tweeter cap values don't seem to be ones that I can calculate
I would use 4th order for tweeter but I don't know if 180 degree phase will have verse consiquence, so I will stick with third order for 8 ohm nominal impedance
Woofer section I won't really change
I don't seem to get anywhere close to 80uF for the zobel filters in any calculator
I added more polyfil and woofer got better, I think it just needs aperiodic vent and it will be okay
Little understanding of crossover design, therefore resorting to component swapping and subjective evaluation of the results.
Harsh but true. That was me once upon a time.
It's not really an optimum project
Just takes a couple days
If I had time I would not use this cabinet the drivers or a passive cross-over
Figured this out about 20 years ago:
Crossovers
"The best crossovers ...
The best electrical crossover filter is one that maintains the acoustic polar response of a loudspeaker throughout the crossover frequency range as output shifts from one driver to the next. The sum of acoustic lowpass and highpass outputs must have allpass behavior without high Q peaks in the group delay. The highpass filter section must attenuate out-of-band driver terminal voltages at a sufficiently high rate so that cone excursion decreases with decreasing frequency and nonlinear distortion is minimized.
The crossover must be inaudible
The crossover must be inaudible on program material. This also implies that the power response of the two drivers must be similar in the crossover region, and that requires special attention during the loudspeaker's concept and design phases.
Crossovers may be implemented either as passive RLC networks, as active filters with operational amplifier circuits or with DSP engines and software. The only excuse for passive crossovers is their low cost. Their behavior changes with the signal level dependent dynamics of the drivers. They block the power amplifier from taking maximum control over the voice coil motion. They are a waste of time, if accuracy of reproduction is the goal.
Accurate Stereo performance tests SL - October 2009"
Although I would say it sounds pretty good.
If I wanted cheap drivers that are good to improve on this design I would go all HiVi
only cheap drivers I've come across that are mostly well built
HiVi AMT, HiVi ferrite mid-dome, and w10 woofer or similar
The middome lets you use a AMT and they are wonderful especially for low level listening, but XT25 is detailed too, but not as much
People rave about symbols and I can see what they mean
Very enjoyable even at low volume
I wanted drivers with grills and I just bought what I could get on the forums
This is one of the few vintage speakers (and NS1000) where you could keep the drivers and it will still sound good, although I would never use a vintage woofer
With possible exception of some JBL woofers, i.e. 123a
Braun L710 sounds similar, if you can find a good one
ADS maybe has nicer drivers, but cheaper cabinet I would say
Vintage ADS drivers are mostly well vintage, but nicely made
I would not be surprised if you just changed the middome in the ADS with $25 HiVi feritte mag middome and it would sound better to most people
Didn't mean to turn this into discussion about vintage drivers
But some one brought it up because I asked an open ended question and then kept harping on the same points over and over again like he was a genius that knows more about vintage speakers than I do, even though he'd be hard pressed to name a vintage speaker I have not come across
Vintage stuff is nice, but I don't want it
I would not drive a 1982 corvette even in 1982, maybe 1982 Porsche, but makes no sense to drive one today
Makes no sense to drive a 2018 Corvette either
I got pulled over once going 100 MPH once, I nearly got shot and a Camry goes faster than that anyway
I mean I understand when you get
you have nothing going for you other than money and a sports car, but driving a Porsche/Corvette going 70 MPH on the highway you look kind of weird 
Maybe certain kind of chicks dig it, I don't know
If it wasn't for this thread I would never have realised how easy it was to upgrade all those old fashioned speakers.
Think I'm going to get some vintage Tannoy monitor golds, Yamaha NS1000 and a pair of LS3/5A and shove some new drivers in, make a quick crossover using an online calculator and sit back with a smug feeling whilst listening to my favourite tunes.
Think I'm going to get some vintage Tannoy monitor golds, Yamaha NS1000 and a pair of LS3/5A and shove some new drivers in, make a quick crossover using an online calculator and sit back with a smug feeling whilst listening to my favourite tunes.
You're welcome
Wasn't suppose to be a thread about vintage speakers at all
But I guess you guys are the experts, even though I would be shocked if anyone here has listened to a fraction of the vintage speakers I have
I've noticed generally speaking the people most likely to give you advice are the ones that are the least competent/knowledgeable
One of lifes' hilarious ironies
Go see this thread: What is the Universe expanding into..
People literally know what's going on in the universe 😱
And this forum actually has some of the smartest people I have ever run across on internet forums
Anyway I'm down to finding the 80uF caps, everything else I have
The woofer section I will keep the same
Not using online calculator, going to adjust Zaph's values to 8 ohm tweeter
So half the cap values and double inductor for the tweeter
R4 and R6 I'm getting rid of because I have attenuators
Any advice on cross over appreciated
If you have opinions on vintage speakers, feel free, makes me lol if nothing else
Maybe you can add some more vintage car metaphors, those are simply delightful 😉😀
I've just done some quick calculations and It seems that that thread Is longer than the universe.
(Interesting - that's the first time I've ever used a double "that")
Here's what I have for the cross-over
I half *** measured the cross-over, it didn't seem to bad
If I had two XT25 tweeters I would just build this speaker with that
Although ribbon dome has more detail to my ears than even the XT25 which is better than any dome tweeter I have heard, but it's Vd far lower than it's Sd would lead you to believe
I doubt it's distortion that makes these ribbons sound more detailed
I had a few BG neo8 and 3's before and they are very detailed also
Or HiVi mid-dome is easier, but doesn't have a grill
Built better than Dayton also I would bet; that's important to me
I like metal grills also
There's a lot more to drivers than tests will indicate.
You have to know what a test measures and what it doesn't and how accurate it is
And then you have to know what the test results means; as in, are they significant or are they not significant
That is extremely hard to know
-----------------------------------
Actually it's a bit of an lol if you will
Goes back to the universe is expanding thing:
okay so you have a "red shift" and the further out you go the more it's shifted faster and faster, to the point where the big bang does not explain the situation because you need energy or "negative" energy input to accelerate the expansion
It's a lot more likely that light (EM energy) loses energy as it travels through space, but at the solar scale we do not notice this
Equations do not scale well and it's a lot easier to think of concepts such as "dark matter" and "negative energy" than to create new equation(s); like infinitely more difficult
---------------------------------------------------------
For example: Zaph states SS 15W is generally better than 15WU
Well the nonlinear distortion at the volume measured difference is insignificant to me
Actually I read that non-linear distortion is a bit of a red-herring but I don't know I look at Zaph's graphs a lot, but I don't like masturbate to them either, you know what I mean?
One guy on this forum, he got banned (dickman?), was like "I can't listen to a graph"; he's really correct though
15WU has better detail at low volume and better detail at high volume
wide band-width is the same or better than 15W
Magnet strength of ferrite is better preserved over time
But cone of 15WU should be better preserved over time
Also 15WU frame is much stronger, if it matters
Also good chance the Dayton 3/4" neo tweeter will be out of spec before any electrolytic caps will be
I half *** measured the cross-over, it didn't seem to bad
If I had two XT25 tweeters I would just build this speaker with that
Although ribbon dome has more detail to my ears than even the XT25 which is better than any dome tweeter I have heard, but it's Vd far lower than it's Sd would lead you to believe
I doubt it's distortion that makes these ribbons sound more detailed
I had a few BG neo8 and 3's before and they are very detailed also
Or HiVi mid-dome is easier, but doesn't have a grill
Built better than Dayton also I would bet; that's important to me
I like metal grills also
There's a lot more to drivers than tests will indicate.
You have to know what a test measures and what it doesn't and how accurate it is
And then you have to know what the test results means; as in, are they significant or are they not significant
That is extremely hard to know
-----------------------------------
Actually it's a bit of an lol if you will
Goes back to the universe is expanding thing:
okay so you have a "red shift" and the further out you go the more it's shifted faster and faster, to the point where the big bang does not explain the situation because you need energy or "negative" energy input to accelerate the expansion
It's a lot more likely that light (EM energy) loses energy as it travels through space, but at the solar scale we do not notice this
Equations do not scale well and it's a lot easier to think of concepts such as "dark matter" and "negative energy" than to create new equation(s); like infinitely more difficult
---------------------------------------------------------
For example: Zaph states SS 15W is generally better than 15WU
Well the nonlinear distortion at the volume measured difference is insignificant to me
Actually I read that non-linear distortion is a bit of a red-herring but I don't know I look at Zaph's graphs a lot, but I don't like masturbate to them either, you know what I mean?
One guy on this forum, he got banned (dickman?), was like "I can't listen to a graph"
; he's really correct though15WU has better detail at low volume and better detail at high volume
wide band-width is the same or better than 15W
Magnet strength of ferrite is better preserved over time
But cone of 15WU should be better preserved over time
Also 15WU frame is much stronger, if it matters
Also good chance the Dayton 3/4" neo tweeter will be out of spec before any electrolytic caps will be
Attachments
How's the cross over look?
I have some giant 75 uF 250-400v poly caps in the midrange section I'd like to exchange for 60uF 50v cap in combination with some other higher voltage caps
Can I get away with that?
Or just leave the "multi-purpose zobel"(s) as they are?
I have 2 - 75 uF and 2 - 62 uF very large poly caps
Guess I'll just use those in multipurpose zobels and called it "good enough"?
I have some giant 75 uF 250-400v poly caps in the midrange section I'd like to exchange for 60uF 50v cap in combination with some other higher voltage caps
Can I get away with that?
Or just leave the "multi-purpose zobel"(s) as they are?
I have 2 - 75 uF and 2 - 62 uF very large poly caps
Guess I'll just use those in multipurpose zobels and called it "good enough"?
Attachments
Speak for yourself. I haven't been arguing, just repeatedly asking questions that constantly got ignored. I'm certainly not losing any sleep over it, that's for sure. It's just a shame that great speakers like those ADS and Yamaha's have to land in the hands of someone such as yourself, just to completely ruin them.
Just an FYI, all of those drivers can easily be rebuilt with new surrounds and even new voice coils and spiders if needed, but doubtful. Only new surrounds should be needed. If you went that route which any normal person would, you would have perfectly operational drivers back in their original enclosures and their proper crossovers directing the signals to them.
With a lot less headache and money, you'd end up with much better looking and sounding speakers than what you're going to slap together.
Considering the very forum you're on, I find it shocking that you think no one here has or uses vintage gear of any kind, including vintage loudspeakers.
Asking if it's alright to go from 75 uF caps to 60 uF caps in the midrange? Sure it is... Better yet, just eliminate the caps altogether. Especially the ones in the tweeter circuit. 🙄
Remember the wise words of George Bush "Fool me once --- shame on ----- shame on you -- Fool me can't get fooled again"
I need 72 uF and 60 uF caps for the zobels
Can I make this work?
I have 16.5 uF for the woofer's zobel and it's suppose to be 80uF?
Where do you get 80uF?
Can I use 60 or 72uF instead and make it work?
If I can do this I will have everything I need for the cross-over
Can I make this work?
I have 16.5 uF for the woofer's zobel and it's suppose to be 80uF?
Where do you get 80uF?
Can I use 60 or 72uF instead and make it work?
If I can do this I will have everything I need for the cross-over
Use the 16.5 with the 60, you will be within a reasonable tolerance.
You were having too good a time during arithmetic.
You were having too good a time during arithmetic.
Jimmy - the 250-400V rating on those caps is probably overkill for a speaker crossover, but as the exact values that calculations arrive at are not always available, or certainly not at convenient pricing, sometimes your choice is limited. To answer the specific question of "where to" either something like Solen 80 mfd Fast Cap 400V
or for slightly lower cost, 4 of Carli Mylar 20 mfd
Oh, and as Charles noted - you might be surprised at the number of "vintage" speakers some of the members of these fora have owned / heard - some of us passing the half century mark in this hobby, and including more than a couple of decades in the retail business.
or for slightly lower cost, 4 of Carli Mylar 20 mfd
Oh, and as Charles noted - you might be surprised at the number of "vintage" speakers some of the members of these fora have owned / heard - some of us passing the half century mark in this hobby, and including more than a couple of decades in the retail business.
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