these are all variants of:
?
how tilting back affects the 3D - depth and envelopment?
have You tried positioning of the flooders at some distance from the front wall - say 0.5 m?
Have You tried Beveridge positioning? You can simulate the side walls with plywood panels
The 25 front will sound harsh, the 25 back has little interest (where's the direct sound ?) and the 50° frontward is an horror. Strangely, this one is the closest related to a direct firing setup....
I don't think "direct firing" is bad by design. It's probably the only implementation that allows for a controlled reproduction when compared to more exotic implementations that tend to create highly unpredictable results because they heavily rely on the room they're in. Your own experience shows how critical speaker location and orientation can be.
The frequency response of direct sound and reflections is smoothest in your 50° back tilt example. That's probably the main reason why it sounds best. This setup also adds very loud first reflections which should increase spaciousness considerably:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
What I saw, it's simple :
The more tilted towards the listener the more the speakers are localizable, on music or still better with the famous pink noise (it's the classic direct firing syndrome as I feel in this room with any speaker of this type). Depth or envelopment are then sacrificed.
This sequel disappears already when the speakers are horizontal. In this case, the soundstage is wide but flat (2D).
When tilted back, not only the measures are nicer, but the side reflections become relatively preeminent and provoke some envelopment, their impact point being grossly 3 meters in front of the speakers line. For the listener it's a 120° sector. A good point is that these lateral infos are not exclusively in the HF territory (as a hi-hat totally and systematically excentered : bad). The center is also never empty.
This enhancement can be modulated by +/- tilt. Personally I like more when not so wide, so 35 to 40° tilt back only. Interesting fact, the balance over 500 hz is not affected.
For the distance from the wall, the rule was for me of minimizing some big notches appearing under 800 Hz. 25 cm was the best compromise.
Before generalizing any conclusion, don't forget that this done with a naked driver, then a dipole. With a mono everything can be different.
Beveridge ? I forgot...
The more tilted towards the listener the more the speakers are localizable, on music or still better with the famous pink noise (it's the classic direct firing syndrome as I feel in this room with any speaker of this type). Depth or envelopment are then sacrificed.
This sequel disappears already when the speakers are horizontal. In this case, the soundstage is wide but flat (2D).
When tilted back, not only the measures are nicer, but the side reflections become relatively preeminent and provoke some envelopment, their impact point being grossly 3 meters in front of the speakers line. For the listener it's a 120° sector. A good point is that these lateral infos are not exclusively in the HF territory (as a hi-hat totally and systematically excentered : bad). The center is also never empty.
This enhancement can be modulated by +/- tilt. Personally I like more when not so wide, so 35 to 40° tilt back only. Interesting fact, the balance over 500 hz is not affected.
For the distance from the wall, the rule was for me of minimizing some big notches appearing under 800 Hz. 25 cm was the best compromise.
Before generalizing any conclusion, don't forget that this done with a naked driver, then a dipole. With a mono everything can be different.
Beveridge ? I forgot...
and what about depth?
I see but it would be interesting to check out the distance from the wall/depth function
yes indeed, easy for You to check it out too!
how could You???
Depth...I've not been very deep in the critical listening as I was more focused on getting exploitable measurement plots, and this done, I had to remove in hurry these speakers from the floor before my kids could take care of them.
In these conditions BTW, the depth is not the preponderant point, the listener is more surprised by the rest of the panoramic presentation. When correctly tilted back, the plane in 2D becomes more a circle arc with the enhancement of the reflexions.
But you know, all this is just words about a feeling, and the feeling was positive.
In these conditions BTW, the depth is not the preponderant point, the listener is more surprised by the rest of the panoramic presentation. When correctly tilted back, the plane in 2D becomes more a circle arc with the enhancement of the reflexions.
But you know, all this is just words about a feeling, and the feeling was positive.
interesting - one of the models in the Jordan-Watts Stereola line of louspeakers looks quite stereolitic
?? ?????? McIntosh/JBL/audio-technica/Jeff Rowland/Accuphase/?/?¾?????
?? ?????? McIntosh/JBL/audio-technica/Jeff Rowland/Accuphase/?/?¾?????
looks like for good old uncle Ted there is really nothing left untried, and in fact many years ago
?? ?????? McIntosh/JBL/audio-technica/Jeff Rowland/Accuphase/?/?¾?????
?? ?????? McIntosh/JBL/audio-technica/Jeff Rowland/Accuphase/?/?¾?????
looks like for good old uncle Ted there is really nothing left untried, and in fact many years ago
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
![Masashi%20-%201[1].jpg](/community/data/attachments/222/222430-e0914b071a6a1951d91e3c9850ff2aa4.jpg)
I screwed the Ciare HX160 fullrangers (6.5", no whizzer) out of their Carlsson enclosures (where they serve as extended midrangers) and put them in 45° tilt-back compact BR enclosures. Nice fullrange joy, the slight aggressiveness that requires a series resistor in sealed enclosure or OB is gone with proper loading. But in this configuration they are not able to present rooms and performers in realistic dimensions, as they do in the Carlsson.
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Good question !
Dipole is the most practical directivity source <1kHz. If not high enough, can use dipole line arrays
- Elias
Funny, I was more interested in how he was going to achieve the higher freq. pattern.
In this setup, domes are a no go !
Tweeter horns could be used. But at a moment I'm experimenting with 5" fullranges.
- Elias
partly stereolitic system and also inspired by Elias' design guide of high directivity <1 kHz
a bit of a flooder is in it too, could be the best of all worlds??
You cannot get over the Jordan delay array, can you
Nice idea, BUT, if using such a short array and if it is required the sound to be reflected from side walls and not coming directly from the array, you should swap the L and R channels !
- Elias
That's the problem.
-up to 5 kHz it's much less directional, which is the opposite premise of having and frontal "blocker" like his sofa pillow. The dipoles aimed the way he has them in the figure do provide a null to the front, but getting a conventional tweeter to do that is something else.
Yes, but a null is not required ! -10dB attenuation is perfectly sufficient ! Markus found even -5dB could be enough.
- Elias
an insightful opinion that is worth reposting in this thread too
underline mine - check it out Elias! it seems that Dr Toole has problem with hearing phantoms as well
YES !!
I just noticed the same in another thread !
When considering this new information from Tooles side, it is more obvious why he preferes early room reflections !!! They are to hide the basic flaws of stereo system to satisfy human psychoacoustics. Some individuals are more sensitive to theses flaws than other, it seems.
- Elias
I believe that this is not a question of being insensitive but rather of attention, expectations and getting used to a specific kind of hi-fi sound (as opposed to realistic sound*)
anyway - remember Levy-Sioles-Brociner's proto-stereolit?
here is more: IEEE Xplore - Stereophonic projection console
can anyone please download that article and report?
another read that must be extremely interesting and relevant from our perspective:
Anthology of Stereophonic Techniques (Open Library)
an anthology with articles by Sioles, Levy, Brociner and Bauer on the stereophonic projection console too
unfortunately "no readable version available" ;-((
has anyone got this book?
*part of realism is that - in John M. Eargle words - "musical sounds are not points but areas"
see: Stereophonic Localization: An Analysis of Listener Reactions to Current Techniques
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looks like Bauer, Brociner, Levy and Sioles stereolitic research led eventually to a kind of a patent for CBS which was licensed ia. to PYE Ltd. in England
it took form of a very nice piece of industrial design by Pye Ltd. - the Pye 1005 Achoic "Achiphon" stereo record player, reviewed in February 1965 issue of Gramophone:
Article | TECHNICAL REPORTS Pye Model 1005 Achoic Stereophonic Projection System. Price: 69 gns. Pye Ltd., Cambridge, England. | Page99 - February1965 - Gramophone Archive
excerpt:
Paul W. Klipsch also investigated such method of stereo reproduction but was less lucky with it:
Paul W. Klipsch "Wide-Stage Stereo"
see attached picture for details, Klipsch observation of a severe hole-in-the-middle or echo-like highs in such configuration are interesting, no other bipolar stereo experimenter reported it so far, perhaps the speakers He used were too directional?
it took form of a very nice piece of industrial design by Pye Ltd. - the Pye 1005 Achoic "Achiphon" stereo record player, reviewed in February 1965 issue of Gramophone:
Article | TECHNICAL REPORTS Pye Model 1005 Achoic Stereophonic Projection System. Price: 69 gns. Pye Ltd., Cambridge, England. | Page99 - February1965 - Gramophone Archive
excerpt:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Paul W. Klipsch also investigated such method of stereo reproduction but was less lucky with it:
Paul W. Klipsch "Wide-Stage Stereo"
see attached picture for details, Klipsch observation of a severe hole-in-the-middle or echo-like highs in such configuration are interesting, no other bipolar stereo experimenter reported it so far, perhaps the speakers He used were too directional?
