If that is where he is at, then it explains much, because his hearing acuity muxt be poor.
dave
Liste to a pair of Frugel-Horn Lite, they exemplify the missing fundemental replacement...
dave
Why? What is the relation between price and transparency of DACs? How do you define transparency, as a subjective parameter? We could debate until infinity in such way.
I simply don't know if it is based on (or backed by) his own listening tests, but maybe he'll tell when he is back.
There are cheap DACs that have better power supplies and analog sections than some expensive DACs. There are simple DIY DACs that outperform expensive DACs too. It may be hard to swallow but price and quality are not 1:1 related. One pays a large part of the sum for the brand name and the emotion that the object is good. All part of the insecurity of humans in general. Many need to hear from others what is good 
Having built an extreme amount of DACs of all kinds I can tell that external DACs are a lottery. A cheap(er) DAC built into an audio player is way more effective than putting time and energy in a intrinsically very good external device connected with a weak interface. That is the bottleneck in a lot of cases. Less = more, also here.
Having built an extreme amount of DACs of all kinds I can tell that external DACs are a lottery. A cheap(er) DAC built into an audio player is way more effective than putting time and energy in a intrinsically very good external device connected with a weak interface. That is the bottleneck in a lot of cases. Less = more, also here.
Last edited:
I have been involved with the design of these types of products. Dealing with Asian vendors is not easy. We all have been beating on them for many years with the phrase "Cost Down!" such that its a knee jerk reaction to make things cheaply. However excellent design costs little more. Really good parts cost only a little more. However execution is work. if you make the effort to work with the vendors they can build superb products (like iPhones). The Cosmos efforts are a good example of excellent design and components implemented well and for a good price. Once you have the basics- components, good design and layout, the box becomes the focus of the cost. One super premium product I was involved with had a case that cost 5 times what the electronics cost (and you could buy a new car for its cost). However, in high end audio, few customers are able to judge the value or performance of a product, let alone the design so they fall to what they understand- jewelry. The external appearance is the determinant of value.
In other words there is no fundamental reason a DAC must be expensive. And being expensive is no indication of performance or quality of construction.
In other words there is no fundamental reason a DAC must be expensive. And being expensive is no indication of performance or quality of construction.
Exactly. The box and features count. This so simpleton thinking but even if your self built DIY DAC outperforms a very expensive DAC some people will then say something about the looks of the DIY DAC. Or when the cost of building is asked then a smile "that can't be good". In some cases the DIY device will even be ignored although others confirm it to be better. It is against the general logic. IMHO adding extra stuff with known bottlenecks is against logic but unfortunately it took me a while to understand that
The experiment: build an affordable DAC into your media player of choice and be surprised. Some manufacturers deliberately build a mediocre DAC section in their devices only to sell you the external box too.
The experiment: build an affordable DAC into your media player of choice and be surprised. Some manufacturers deliberately build a mediocre DAC section in their devices only to sell you the external box too.
Last edited:
That doesn’t make the cheap DAC sound any better, it just means that there are over-priced DACs just as there is overpriced everything else.
dave
Last edited:
Aha wrong thinking. Better power supplies and analog sections do make the cheap device in question sound better. That is why it outperforms the less well designed device. Lets suppose both have the same DAC chip. It won't be the brand name on the front cover that determines the device to be the "best" does it? News flash: to many it does. Some buy Dyson products even though the previous 3 lasted only a year and they still can tell with dry eyes that the product is excellent.
One should not look at brand name and price but try to find and understand quality. It gives a kind of independence as well.
One should not look at brand name and price but try to find and understand quality. It gives a kind of independence as well.
Last edited:
I have experience about box in amplifier. I and my friend design an amplifier and the amplifier compared to commercial amplifier which the price more expensive about 3x. They said my amplifier sound better than the commercial amplifier. My friend ask if they have any chance to buy the amplifier? They said: NO. Because the box look cheaper and ugly.
There lays the difficult challenge to many of us. Good or even excellent performance is the main goal (and hard enough on itself) but then comes the maybe even harder challenge to give it nice looks. Again a justification to build a DAC into devices. In general better performance and no worries at all about the looks. Often cheaper, better, smaller footprint and almost no metal work. Should appeal to some.
Oh oh here come "resale value", "difficult", "not original", risc .... and craftsmanship.
Oh oh here come "resale value", "difficult", "not original", risc .... and craftsmanship.
Last edited:
I am involved in the design of integrated circuits for consumer electronics. It's frustrating sometimes, like when you spent months designing a DAC that meets some distortion target, and then find that the application people recommend using a quite nonlinear ceramic class 2 capacitor for output AC coupling because it is the cheapest solution and therefore the only solution that is likely to be accepted by customers. Not that it affects the distortion spec much: distortion is specified at 1 kHz, where there is hardly any signal voltage across the capacitor - besides, you can always put in the datasheet small print that the distortion spec applies at the IC pin.
@jean-paul,
Evenharmonics just wanted me to quote his phrase and so I did, but he was reasoning about matured technology and finally offered his categorical assertion about "even cheap DACSs are audible transparent".
To me, the interesting part was not the relation to price, but the "audible transparent" part, and therefore asked for the evidence.
Evenharmonics just wanted me to quote his phrase and so I did, but he was reasoning about matured technology and finally offered his categorical assertion about "even cheap DACSs are audible transparent".
To me, the interesting part was not the relation to price, but the "audible transparent" part, and therefore asked for the evidence.
Dunno. This was the general wisdom in the 90s, but does it still hold? It certainly produced some interesting products like the AN range, based on mediocre digital boards and a rather prominent analogue part. Some listeners loved the result. Otoh, quite a few very high end dacs today almost completely lack an analogue part and use a smps. Some listeners love that too.
Hard to generalise. Based on sound preferences i know there is market for an mp3 player with a DHT, transformer coupled analogue part. If it allows for swapping of various DHTs to the owner's delight, it may even be very successful.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.