It's true, of course, I really like the clear and limpid mids, the vocals in evidence and the penetrating brasses, as well as the airy and tinkling high notes, but what I really love and which I can't do without are the BASS, that true, only it makes me come like a maniac. Unfortunately I got tired of searching, I can no longer find speakers with full, powerful, authoritative, defined, deep and engaging, impactful, dynamic bass, with an F3 extension at least below 30 Hz in anechoic. So I'm asking for advice here: which is the best speaker you've ever known with a similar response in the low range, branded or DIY, even large, possibly no more than 150 litres, possibly not costing thousands and thousands of euros and that at least doesn't suck on the rest of the range, especially the vocals? Thank you for even the smallest contribution.
Yeah, the room modes ruins it, there is boom or no bass depending on where you listen and where the speakers are located at in the room.
You can adjust positioning until problems are least, or swap for bigger room until good, movie theatre scale. Multisub system averages some of it out lessening peaks and dips. Also I've read dipole or cardioid systems could possibly help. I cannot say which is the best option, it is yours to deside.
We are not listening to speakers but sound speakers put into room. Speaker system needs to be tailored to suit the room and practical positioning.
You can adjust positioning until problems are least, or swap for bigger room until good, movie theatre scale. Multisub system averages some of it out lessening peaks and dips. Also I've read dipole or cardioid systems could possibly help. I cannot say which is the best option, it is yours to deside.
We are not listening to speakers but sound speakers put into room. Speaker system needs to be tailored to suit the room and practical positioning.
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Minimize driver excursion (so horn loading and large membrane area are necessary). DSP, DSP, DSP. Take your time to find with placement in the room. And of course you will use subwoofers, so vocal will be handeled by something else.
Currently I am somewhat happy with 4 RCF LF15N401, push push slot loaded with closed back chambers in a room corner. Baffles touch the walls in a 30 degree angle. DSP to flatten response (measurement taken close up at the exit of the slot), low pass filter to prevent phono cartridge feedback.
Currently I am somewhat happy with 4 RCF LF15N401, push push slot loaded with closed back chambers in a room corner. Baffles touch the walls in a 30 degree angle. DSP to flatten response (measurement taken close up at the exit of the slot), low pass filter to prevent phono cartridge feedback.
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Can you share info on loudspeaker that you have right now which you are obviously not satisfied with?
Practically, below 300 Hz or so (depending on the room size), you are listening to what the room does to the loudspeakers.
This means that if you try different loudspeakers (but with similar low frequencies extension), all of them will have very similar response, if they are placed on the same points,
So try to move the loudspeakers and the listening seat to different points in the room.
Probably, you could find some better points.
This means that if you try different loudspeakers (but with similar low frequencies extension), all of them will have very similar response, if they are placed on the same points,
So try to move the loudspeakers and the listening seat to different points in the room.
Probably, you could find some better points.
Have you gone through speaker positioning? Do you have a laptop or PC to run REW to see what moving speakers around really changes in the response? I use AE TD15S woofers in 170ltr and after weeks of moving them around found a good spot (the best for the room).
What speakers are you using and describe the room?
What speakers are you using and describe the room?
Everything (multisub, other-than-monopole-sources) has been, or will be said on this. I could add the double bass array
, but most experts agree on the opinion that in relatively small rooms (domestic that is) adequate low frequency reproduction isn't possible with just one or two LF monopole sources.Furthermore, it really is pretty easy to acquire sub-30Hz anechoic (...) in 150 litres, the big question is: which SPL? I have simple 8" 40 litre ported systems that do 28Hz at 98dB/1m anechoic, nothing special. It's really a matter of one or more drivers with enough Vd, combined with a large enough enclosure, a decent amp and an active crossover/equalizer. All of these, bar the driver maybe, are ridiculously cheap these days.
I think a "small room" (all normal domestic rooms fall in this category) is completely different acoustic environment compared to a live venue.
It's of course the same physical rules in play, but small rooms will have a distinct and profound number of modes, which will give deep nulls and high peaks. The trick with multiple subs is to hit as many of the modes as possible to get an even low end freq response. Very large rooms have many more modes and will therefore be more naturally even ... few own rooms which are that big
Large concert venues have other concerns like large reflecting surfaces, many ms away from the speakers which will cause ecco even in the low end, making up for a muddy low end.
And the video is true and good for live performance.
So one more for multi sub
It's always a good idea to start with the theory when you search for the best possible thing!
You want a direct translation of the low frequency music signal to sound waves in the room. So there are a lot of factors ... let's start with the speaker. We don't want resonators or resonant lines or other resonant stuff when searching for the ulimate quality. Do we agree on that? So a closed box is a good start.
It also needs to go to low frequencies with low delay -> a combination of filters applies. The filter behaviour of speaker + enclosure. Low pass filter of your integration to the main speaker. And some electronics and other stuff involved which are hopefully good enough to don't have influence. Now you can add and manipulate filters in a linear system - and we are talking about best quality, so our speakers are not driven into extremes, they stay linear. (THD proves that btw).
With a closed speaker you can more or less decide about the frequency response you like with adding filters. The phase response and group delay will follow. But I normally don't boost more then 10dB as rule of thumb ... would be an interesting topic on it's own.
And now the most important part - the room!
Normal listening rooms do horrible things to your frequency response, often +-10-15dB, dependend where your speaker sits and where you are. Therefore you NEED TO fit your speaker system, position and listening position to your room for best performance!
Is there a possibility to remove the room completely? Yes - a double bass array.
Searching for ultimate performance and "truth" in low frequency reproduction? That's the way to go.
So no, there is no single, cheap speaker with the best bass you ever heard and great vocals out there. It's not possible, simply cause of your room.
But 2-4 closed subwoofers, postioned on good spots and a DSP module for filtering the speaker + room will bring you pretty far. And then choose good speakers for the higher frequency range.
You want a direct translation of the low frequency music signal to sound waves in the room. So there are a lot of factors ... let's start with the speaker. We don't want resonators or resonant lines or other resonant stuff when searching for the ulimate quality. Do we agree on that? So a closed box is a good start.
It also needs to go to low frequencies with low delay -> a combination of filters applies. The filter behaviour of speaker + enclosure. Low pass filter of your integration to the main speaker. And some electronics and other stuff involved which are hopefully good enough to don't have influence. Now you can add and manipulate filters in a linear system - and we are talking about best quality, so our speakers are not driven into extremes, they stay linear. (THD proves that btw).
With a closed speaker you can more or less decide about the frequency response you like with adding filters. The phase response and group delay will follow. But I normally don't boost more then 10dB as rule of thumb ... would be an interesting topic on it's own.
And now the most important part - the room!
Normal listening rooms do horrible things to your frequency response, often +-10-15dB, dependend where your speaker sits and where you are. Therefore you NEED TO fit your speaker system, position and listening position to your room for best performance!
Is there a possibility to remove the room completely? Yes - a double bass array.
Searching for ultimate performance and "truth" in low frequency reproduction? That's the way to go.
So no, there is no single, cheap speaker with the best bass you ever heard and great vocals out there. It's not possible, simply cause of your room.
But 2-4 closed subwoofers, postioned on good spots and a DSP module for filtering the speaker + room will bring you pretty far. And then choose good speakers for the higher frequency range.
Ok thanks to all, my idea was just a simplistic question as 'what's the speaker that best have shattered your ears in terms of bass response', regardless of room, i.e. assuming that speaker/room interaction was pretty good.
I don't want to involve subwoofer because obviously it shocks every consideration about main speakers and because I'll try not to use any because of the risk to became mad in modifing settings for every song I'll hear.
My actual system is a pair of MTM floorstanders, about 65 liters transmission line (not mass loaded), four 6,5'' midwoofer really famous (Vifa P17), which I'm convenced even finding the best situation in room will never give me that slam I'm looking for.
I don't want to involve subwoofer because obviously it shocks every consideration about main speakers and because I'll try not to use any because of the risk to became mad in modifing settings for every song I'll hear.
My actual system is a pair of MTM floorstanders, about 65 liters transmission line (not mass loaded), four 6,5'' midwoofer really famous (Vifa P17), which I'm convenced even finding the best situation in room will never give me that slam I'm looking for.
That's the point - I never heared a speaker just comming close to what's possible with a good room "integrated" sub system.
Start with getting knowledge in a measurement system (e.g REW), do a good integration - you will not need to change the level of a proper set up subwoofer. But it's similar to developing a crossover in an active speaker - it takes time and a lot of measurements to get it right.
(btw - I don't use a sub with my main listening speaker system. But these speaker are wall integrated and the lf drivers are on the right position to build a single bass array ... many ways to do it when you can design a system (=speaker + room) from scratch.)
Start with getting knowledge in a measurement system (e.g REW), do a good integration - you will not need to change the level of a proper set up subwoofer. But it's similar to developing a crossover in an active speaker - it takes time and a lot of measurements to get it right.
(btw - I don't use a sub with my main listening speaker system. But these speaker are wall integrated and the lf drivers are on the right position to build a single bass array ... many ways to do it when you can design a system (=speaker + room) from scratch.)
Yeah, point of the subwoofer is not make bass sound louder, to tease your neighbor or shake the glassware, its purpose is to make the bass sound better, cancel bad effect of small room. And not just one sub but multiple, and DSP to tune it all out. Bass quality does not matter if you don't hear it, or it booms and masks any qualities there is, cannot underestimate how much the room affects perception of bass "quality".
As general all around advice what kind of speaker has good bass here is the secret: you get better quality bass the bigger the driver cone is, and thats about it. Multiple 8", or one 12" or so is much more capable than one 6". Many have mains with 15" drivers, or bigger. I'm now at 15" drivers on main speakers and not going smaller, its just so much fun, even on low volume. If there is no space to have big system, you could also try and look some kits that feature modern very low distortion high excursion small drivers like Purifi, but they are expensive, single driver can buy multiple small active subs.
As general all around advice what kind of speaker has good bass here is the secret: you get better quality bass the bigger the driver cone is, and thats about it. Multiple 8", or one 12" or so is much more capable than one 6". Many have mains with 15" drivers, or bigger. I'm now at 15" drivers on main speakers and not going smaller, its just so much fun, even on low volume. If there is no space to have big system, you could also try and look some kits that feature modern very low distortion high excursion small drivers like Purifi, but they are expensive, single driver can buy multiple small active subs.
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