From concept and experience:
1) Sufficient membrane area with low loss suspension in closed box, active powered and equalized via DSP, if you aim for quality and precision.
I have a system running here with 2x Scan Speak 26W/8534G00 working in around 65l (Qts=0,85) per speaker, each pair in parallel on one channel of Hypex FA123 with Linkwitz transform to Qt=0,7/Fs=30Hz and a bit room equalization. I really like them a lot; they give tight, deep and very precise bass and play completely undistorted and uncompressed up to stroking with x_lim = Pmax of amp channel (power matched system), DC offset seems neglectable.
2) If you want it thunderous loud, go BIG; a 15" - 18" per side, low loss, vented in a low group delay alignment can also play very precise and is really able to shake your windows and guts. Had also speakers here with one Faital 18FH500-8 woofers in 140l vented @ 35Hz tuning. They played also very nice, but I don't need the headroom; speakers are under reconstruction dedicated for our neigbourhood party PA system at the moment...
I could also imagine that a "2-way-woofer" with dedicated "kicker" speaker in CB for the fundamentals plus long stroke sub-section in vented or TML alignment can give much SPL with high precision, e.g. look at designs from Troel Gravesen.
Beside from placing and exciting of the room to improve low frequency mode behaviour, there are often more trivial things that limit at least maximum sound pressure: Overall enjoyable SPL of both mentioned systems above is limited by my (untreated) living room's reverbereation time, not the speakers. When you crank the volume up, more and more reverberations exceed the hearing threshold what makes the sound unpleasing. When you crank up the mentioned 18" speaker even a bit more, everything in the room starts rattling - doors, windows, shelfs and so on as the woofer is still far from x_max.
Best regards
Peter
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Best bass I've heard came from a pair of large FLHs with two unknown15" drivers per side. It was a tie between that and some huge OB subs with four 18s per side. The OB arrangement had the most natural bass by a mile. The low end had depth and physical presence which could be located precisely in the stereo image. That was the first time I've actually heard holographic bass that had a sense of space. You could hear the exact location of all the LF detail from an orchestra, even individual string bass parts. Pipe organ music was presented as being in the building itself where the mics were located during the recording.
The room is always going to limit the amount and type of bass you'll be able to achieve. Sealed subs are easier to make sound better, flatter, smoother than ported subs, mainly due to the many phase shifts you have to deal with that will interact unpredictability in various locations in the room.
The group delay is another issue, being higher in ported subs than sealed subs. Its just easier to use good class D plate amps with built in DSP to get it close to your liking. Everyone perceives bass differently. That makes a measured flat LF response sound thin and boring to alot of people. Unless you're trying to achieve studio monitor quality bass that needs to be reference flat, its going to sound better to most people with most forms of music putting a slight bump or tilt in the LF curve. The playback level also has alot of affect on the LF EQ and level. What sounds good at referenced at 90 dB average will sound too bottom heavy at 100 dB. DSP helps alot with this. I would never use passive subs due to all these limitations and variables. A minimum of 2 subs is necessary to get decent integration with the main speakers. The more the better.
The room is always going to limit the amount and type of bass you'll be able to achieve. Sealed subs are easier to make sound better, flatter, smoother than ported subs, mainly due to the many phase shifts you have to deal with that will interact unpredictability in various locations in the room.
The group delay is another issue, being higher in ported subs than sealed subs. Its just easier to use good class D plate amps with built in DSP to get it close to your liking. Everyone perceives bass differently. That makes a measured flat LF response sound thin and boring to alot of people. Unless you're trying to achieve studio monitor quality bass that needs to be reference flat, its going to sound better to most people with most forms of music putting a slight bump or tilt in the LF curve. The playback level also has alot of affect on the LF EQ and level. What sounds good at referenced at 90 dB average will sound too bottom heavy at 100 dB. DSP helps alot with this. I would never use passive subs due to all these limitations and variables. A minimum of 2 subs is necessary to get decent integration with the main speakers. The more the better.
Re:'F3 extension at least below 30 Hz' - I think this is a bit of an audio myth, for most music an F3 in the mid 30s is more than adequate. More important is solid and clean mid-bass, where most 'bass' information resides.
FWIW, the best bass box I've built is in my current system, 2x 6" poly cone drivers (Jaycar CW2108) in 60L, F3 somewhere in the mid 30s. I run these from 500Hz down in a 20 sq meter room. Double bass & drums sound amazing to me.
FWIW, the best bass box I've built is in my current system, 2x 6" poly cone drivers (Jaycar CW2108) in 60L, F3 somewhere in the mid 30s. I run these from 500Hz down in a 20 sq meter room. Double bass & drums sound amazing to me.
You seem to be missing the point entirely.
Even if you had towers with duel 18" woofers playing at 400W each, if you are positioned in a small room with many nodes, it does not matter how good the bass is. The nodes will cancel out and you will hear no bass at that particular location.
I would recommend watching a few videos on audio theory, maybe you'll find the answer you are looking for.
I'll tell you the worst bass I've ever heard. Visited a rich person's house for a lunch. They showed off their SVS PB16 sub. It looks like a washing machine and was stuck in the corner of their open plan living room. Played some shite like Tiesto or something and the expensive crystal glasses fell off the kitchen counter in the next room. The bass was dreadful. What a waste of money.
A bit of money spent on treating the room and perhaps paying a pro to come and do some properly miked measurements.
I'm lucky in that my system is modular and I've placed my woofers and tops in different places in the room.
Modular and Bi-Amping can work well in many rooms too
I'm lucky in that my system is modular and I've placed my woofers and tops in different places in the room.
Modular and Bi-Amping can work well in many rooms too
18" equalised bass guitar speaker, Infinite baffle, worked great in small 10 x 11 feet room.
Recently for quality and depth rather than slam, modded yamaha YST SW40 and YST SW80s running from DCX2496. Big one EQed flat, near field, from 30 to 70Hz, smaller one EQed flat 70 to 200Hz nearfield. crossing over to small 2 way. Very good.
Recently for quality and depth rather than slam, modded yamaha YST SW40 and YST SW80s running from DCX2496. Big one EQed flat, near field, from 30 to 70Hz, smaller one EQed flat 70 to 200Hz nearfield. crossing over to small 2 way. Very good.
best bass / impact / slam I ever had was double 15" 2-way crossed at 750hz....
And I once ran a quad amp 4x18, 4x15, mid horn, piezo, crossing at 80hz, 750hz, and 5khz.
I prefered the big double 15 setup hands down.
Something about a big 2-way.
The real problem people have is forcing 15's to go higher than 800hz and / or not having a horn large enough to go down to (directivity) to 800hz either.
I preferred versus crossing at 80hz to subs.
My theory is bass/midrange is not going through a time/phase wrap of a 80-150hz crossover.
Ran basically that setup for years.
Still chasing that slam..................
Its F3 anechoic was just above 30hz.
dual Eminence magnum 15lf's in a jbl 4508a cabinet, plugged 1 port for 27hz tuning instead of 40hz.
2384 horn with a 2435hpl.
That thing pounded you.
And I once ran a quad amp 4x18, 4x15, mid horn, piezo, crossing at 80hz, 750hz, and 5khz.
I prefered the big double 15 setup hands down.
Something about a big 2-way.
The real problem people have is forcing 15's to go higher than 800hz and / or not having a horn large enough to go down to (directivity) to 800hz either.
I preferred versus crossing at 80hz to subs.
My theory is bass/midrange is not going through a time/phase wrap of a 80-150hz crossover.
Ran basically that setup for years.
Still chasing that slam..................
Its F3 anechoic was just above 30hz.
dual Eminence magnum 15lf's in a jbl 4508a cabinet, plugged 1 port for 27hz tuning instead of 40hz.
2384 horn with a 2435hpl.
That thing pounded you.
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Nearfield stereo dipole with the nulls in just the right position (relative to the listener) along with bass actuators in the listener's seat.
I actually have half of this equation for my Home Theater setup, but because it's for multiple listeners I had to give-up on stereo along with that head-shading effect of getting the nulls right - so it is a near-field mono dipole design with bass actuators in each listener's seat.
I actually have half of this equation for my Home Theater setup, but because it's for multiple listeners I had to give-up on stereo along with that head-shading effect of getting the nulls right - so it is a near-field mono dipole design with bass actuators in each listener's seat.
Ok, so for the question best ever bass heard, memory road gives me 3 (quite different):
1. Wisdom Audio Adrenaline M75 with 2 x 12" per side. Listened to YES - Junior B in very large room at a HiFi conference
- Super deep and super powerful
2. Wilson Audio Sophia (1 x 10" Scanspeak in ca 60 l vented. Listened to Karunesh - Returning to Now, in a small hotel room ant a hifi conference
- Super clear, super deep, super powerful
3. L'Acoustics, the biggest and baddest gig in 2019, powerd by 380kW, and a stadium. Listened to Rammstein
- If you want slam and kick ... you got it .... truely chest pounding, but still very clear (yes used earplugs
)
For a normal room the 1x10" from Wilson, is probably the best way to go
1. Wisdom Audio Adrenaline M75 with 2 x 12" per side. Listened to YES - Junior B in very large room at a HiFi conference
- Super deep and super powerful
2. Wilson Audio Sophia (1 x 10" Scanspeak in ca 60 l vented. Listened to Karunesh - Returning to Now, in a small hotel room ant a hifi conference
- Super clear, super deep, super powerful
3. L'Acoustics, the biggest and baddest gig in 2019, powerd by 380kW, and a stadium. Listened to Rammstein
- If you want slam and kick ... you got it .... truely chest pounding, but still very clear (yes used earplugs
)For a normal room the 1x10" from Wilson, is probably the best way to go
I have not heard this system, but wall of sub has been reporting to have clean room modes free bass.
https://properformance.at/en/projects/club/club-sub/
https://properformance.at/en/projects/club/club-sub/
The best value I am aware of in a loudspeaker that can really pump out the bass is Solen's Monitor 9, with a woofer that SBA calls 8-inch, but I measure its Outside Diameter as 9 inches. The Morel Midrange-Tweeter module is very sweet.
https://solen.ca/en/products/solen-monitor9-passive-3way-monitor
Solen claims "extension" to 25Hz, no -dB reference, and I doubt that is an anechoic measurement.
But, for about USD$2500 the pair--which is what other people charge for a BBC Shoebox, for a professionally built completed speaker, I know of nothing like it. I assume that it is also available from Solen in France, if you are in Europe. NB, at the moment I am working on a review of the active version, which is powered by the Hypex FA 223 module.
ciao,
john
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I placed my subs into the wall/cabinet to change the response to half hemisphere instead of quarter hemisphere. Someone with more knowledge may correct this information if I am wrong. I also changed the ceiling height in my living room to 9 ft. when we built our house to smooth out some nasty room nodes. 8 ft. ceilings are not very good in that respect.
"best" isnt important
I know good bass when i hear it!
for that money, buying in the used market makes much more sense. 2500 usd buy you better sound on the used market.
I know good bass when i hear it!
for that money, buying in the used market makes much more sense. 2500 usd buy you better sound on the used market.
The slam from double 15 feels nice))). Norman, could you tell what is the xover order and EQ if any you use for the 2384 horn with a 2435hpl? Thanks.
id argue NOTHING has changed since then
the entire audiophile industry today is built upon the scam that small bookshelves can sound satisfying
so you have audiophile trying dozen of 6" 2-ways over the years. adding subs, changing pre amps, spending thousands and thousands on amps, source, pre amps, but they use 6" 2 way speakers. They dont understand that what they dislike is their small gutless speakers.
since real big speakers are not affordable, you have a army of audiophile who will never experience real bass.
More info about wall of bass, including detailed explanation and video, flat to 7 Hz
https://www.avsforum.com/threads/club-subs-“wall-of-bass”.1510495/
terrible background music in that video, but some useful explanation
https://www.avsforum.com/threads/club-subs-“wall-of-bass”.1510495/
terrible background music in that video, but some useful explanation
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