As this thread is worthless without pic's (or more data points) here's a graph of the preliminary mid-side EQ:
click to see the bigger version
The red line is the mid part of the EQ.
The blue line is the actual side EQ applied.
The green line is what the left ear gets from a side panned signal.
The purple line is what the right ear gets with a side panned signal.
See how this stuff isn't and will never be totally transparent? All EQ shown here is of the linear phase kind. The purple part needs even more explaining. We see a number of peaks, but they are not all of the same polarity. The bumps at ~600 Hz, 3700 Hz and 7200 Hz are inverse signals. Remember how I liked the JRiver Surround Field Medium Enhancement? Lets see what that signal looks like:
Now it may make more sense. This is the side panned sound only. The Stereo mid sum looks exactly like the red line here, but here in this graph it is representing the result at the left ear from the Surround Field enhancement.
The opposed channel (or ear) gets the green line. An inverse copy of the left channel.
So what I did with the mid-side EQ is copy the good parts of the Surround Field effect at the frequencies where the cross talk bleed sums favorably.
This makes the virtual sound source "seem" to come from the left, instead of the actual speaker location on hard left panned sounds. Mimicking a sound as one would hear it coming from the left.
The Surround Field effect by itself is fun by itself, but the combination of the mid and side EQ as shown here is a more subtle and tonally correct version of it.
By no means do I declare this work in progress as finished, but I figured to show what it is I'm doing, so some may try to copy it for themselves. This is merely an in-between plot. It shows me there's room for improvement.
Should I write more? For instance how to make/check these graphs? Is there any interest in what this is all about? Just let me know...
It is remarkable how this all sums at our ear(s)... if we apply the cross talk with head shading etc...
The side EQ isn't really applying a boost or a cut, it is merely shifting energy from one channel to the other. However the sum at the ears does not change all that much, but how it is interpreted in our brain does!
Enough riddles for one night....
** disclaimer ** The level tweak of the upper mid/side EQ plot is a general +2.5 dB boost in my mid-side EQ plugin... it has nothing to do with the actual level differences between the left, right or phantom parts when compared to the surround field (just add a bit of boost to both lines in the bottom chart to adjust for this difference). Searching this thread on 'Surround Field' should present my earlier reverse engineering attempts of what is happening there.
click to see the bigger version
The red line is the mid part of the EQ.
The blue line is the actual side EQ applied.
The green line is what the left ear gets from a side panned signal.
The purple line is what the right ear gets with a side panned signal.
See how this stuff isn't and will never be totally transparent? All EQ shown here is of the linear phase kind. The purple part needs even more explaining. We see a number of peaks, but they are not all of the same polarity. The bumps at ~600 Hz, 3700 Hz and 7200 Hz are inverse signals. Remember how I liked the JRiver Surround Field Medium Enhancement? Lets see what that signal looks like:
Now it may make more sense. This is the side panned sound only. The Stereo mid sum looks exactly like the red line here, but here in this graph it is representing the result at the left ear from the Surround Field enhancement.
The opposed channel (or ear) gets the green line. An inverse copy of the left channel.
So what I did with the mid-side EQ is copy the good parts of the Surround Field effect at the frequencies where the cross talk bleed sums favorably.
This makes the virtual sound source "seem" to come from the left, instead of the actual speaker location on hard left panned sounds. Mimicking a sound as one would hear it coming from the left.
The Surround Field effect by itself is fun by itself, but the combination of the mid and side EQ as shown here is a more subtle and tonally correct version of it.
By no means do I declare this work in progress as finished, but I figured to show what it is I'm doing, so some may try to copy it for themselves. This is merely an in-between plot. It shows me there's room for improvement.
Should I write more? For instance how to make/check these graphs? Is there any interest in what this is all about? Just let me know...
It is remarkable how this all sums at our ear(s)... if we apply the cross talk with head shading etc...
The side EQ isn't really applying a boost or a cut, it is merely shifting energy from one channel to the other. However the sum at the ears does not change all that much, but how it is interpreted in our brain does!
Enough riddles for one night....
** disclaimer ** The level tweak of the upper mid/side EQ plot is a general +2.5 dB boost in my mid-side EQ plugin... it has nothing to do with the actual level differences between the left, right or phantom parts when compared to the surround field (just add a bit of boost to both lines in the bottom chart to adjust for this difference). Searching this thread on 'Surround Field' should present my earlier reverse engineering attempts of what is happening there.
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I'm interested but you knew that already
Looks like the Mid EQ is a bit smoother with a bit less jagged dip that was there before, sides seem a little busier.
Interested in the values to compare against what I had running before.
Absorbing it all. More please
Doing some upgrades atm. Juzt replace my laptops 1tb hd for an 860 EVO 2tb ssd that runs aside an 970 EVO M.2 ssd used as boot.
More upgrades to my CR-10 S4 3D printer. New E3D V6 hot end, auto bed leveling, new PS/ Display and latest dual extrusion motherboard. New magnetic bed build from Wham Bam System, I was on their Kickstarter. More items coming, Hoping to have done in a week. Have some waveguides to make
btw have my New force oppossing MLTL prototype built. It has removable side panels for interal access held on with 52 Hurricane wingnuts. Need to run some tests, but as is appears to defy current TL theory, thus why its built as is. Its an experiment that requires ample headscratching
Doing some upgrades atm. Juzt replace my laptops 1tb hd for an 860 EVO 2tb ssd that runs aside an 970 EVO M.2 ssd used as boot.
More upgrades to my CR-10 S4 3D printer. New E3D V6 hot end, auto bed leveling, new PS/ Display and latest dual extrusion motherboard. New magnetic bed build from Wham Bam System, I was on their Kickstarter. More items coming, Hoping to have done in a week. Have some waveguides to make
btw have my New force oppossing MLTL prototype built. It has removable side panels for interal access held on with 52 Hurricane wingnuts. Need to run some tests, but as is appears to defy current TL theory, thus why its built as is. Its an experiment that requires ample headscratching
EJL TL
Couple of pics. Still yet to cut the plexiglass windows into the removable panels. Works well to 26Hz
If this pans out (and I think it will nicely) would not require wingnuts or windows, but would require 4 of these. Configuration of either flanking or stackable so two is like ~7'6".
Couple of pics. Still yet to cut the plexiglass windows into the removable panels. Works well to 26Hz
If this pans out (and I think it will nicely) would not require wingnuts or windows, but would require 4 of these. Configuration of either flanking or stackable so two is like ~7'6".
Yes, please!
I will begin my own line arrays this fall (I have to finish the house first!), and your build is my primary source of inspiration. Your work on compensating for the cross talk is very interesting to me, and I will use your ideas for sure. So the more info on this the better!
Best regards,
Mattias
I'll be sure to write more about it . I do have to keep on mentioning, the reduction of early reflections is key. At least to be able to clearly distinguish between these settings.
Clarity improves a lot that way. Music is "floating" and 3D like, independent from speaker positions. Balance is key.
. I do have to keep on mentioning, the reduction of early reflections is key. At least to be able to clearly distinguish between these settings.Clarity improves a lot that way. Music is "floating" and 3D like, independent from speaker positions. Balance is key.
Still playing with values, still not completely happy, but certainly not unhappy either.
I figure I can do a little better, but "Dark Side of the Moon" sure was sweet to listen to!
Love all those little effects... the intro of "Time" is and continues to be amazing!
So I guess it's alright just to enjoy it like it is... On to Home Theater tonight, movie time...
I figure I need more "Time".
I figure I can do a little better, but "Dark Side of the Moon" sure was sweet to listen to!
Love all those little effects... the intro of "Time" is and continues to be amazing!
So I guess it's alright just to enjoy it like it is... On to Home Theater tonight, movie time...
I figure I need more "Time"
.
Too hot for outdoor testing atm, perhaps if a tropical depression cools us off it could be done. Every year it seems anymore we set new all time record high temps. Really sucks too because I finished the IEC standard baffle to fully test the W5-2143 5" fullrange as an intended midrange for my one of my projects.
3D printer is slowly coming together. Forgot to order 2 filament sensors with the order that arrived today. So another small delay. Intend on dual extrusion, but not right at this moment. Right now am assembling a new E3D type V6 titan hotend. 50w heater, nickel plated copper heatblock, titanium heat break and copper alloy plated nozzles yadda yadda yadda. Next will be a 1000w heater for the bed, just require the pad, $103 Amazon Prime
Get this hotend setup and intend on a few waveguides and front panel frames that'll need to be made... Want to make Patrick Bateman's Unity horn. Have the tweeters, need mids.
Your comments on how this tweaking sounds reminds me of the opamp ckt I built while in the USAF early '80's. All processing was signal seperation eg pulling a stereophonic signal apart into their own discrete channels. Processing was done with analog 1/3octave eq'a and early bbb delay lines. The ckt got noticable improvements like you mention except it was bloody noisey must have had a S/N Ratio of 50 lol.
I'm glued to this Bat Channel
3D printer is slowly coming together. Forgot to order 2 filament sensors with the order that arrived today. So another small delay. Intend on dual extrusion, but not right at this moment. Right now am assembling a new E3D type V6 titan hotend. 50w heater, nickel plated copper heatblock, titanium heat break and copper alloy plated nozzles yadda yadda yadda. Next will be a 1000w heater for the bed, just require the pad, $103 Amazon Prime
Get this hotend setup and intend on a few waveguides and front panel frames that'll need to be made... Want to make Patrick Bateman's Unity horn. Have the tweeters, need mids.
Your comments on how this tweaking sounds reminds me of the opamp ckt I built while in the USAF early '80's. All processing was signal seperation eg pulling a stereophonic signal apart into their own discrete channels. Processing was done with analog 1/3octave eq'a and early bbb delay lines. The ckt got noticable improvements like you mention except it was bloody noisey must have had a S/N Ratio of 50 lol.
I'm glued to this Bat Channel
As it turns out, my vacation time was spend a bit different than expected. I figured there would be plenty of time to finish the subwoofers. However, my son really needs a place to chill with friends etc. so we decided it would be a good time to fix up that unused bedroom, the one full with stuff we never use anymore . Among other things there was a Behringer DEQ 2496, never used, bought back in 2011 for the Towers.
As he's also using my main PC for his Formula 1 2019 game I figured I might as well get a new PC for myself and hand down the old one to him. It will still be quite potent as a gaming rig, despite it's 6 year age.
Instead of buying a brand new PC for myself I shopped the reverbished category. I had seen new Lenovo Workstations that still had PCI support (for the Xonar Essence ST) but to get close to what I was used to, performance wise, would mean emptying my pockets.
So after shopping around I found that a 2017 HP Z440 still had PCI support, sadly the newer ones don't.
In short, I got myself a Z440 with an E-5 1650 V4 processor, a good amount of RAM (32 GB), a 700 watt power supply and moved all the old stuff out of the Lenovo S30 into the HP. I even had to make a molex extension cord as no shop had those in stock anymore. Ah well... everything is up and running, meaning the new PC has all HDD's, the Xonar Essence ST and a freshly installed Windows 7 Pro (yeah I know).
Now I need to install all programs again, my trusty Inventor, JRiver, REW etc. browsing the back-ups for specifics etc. So it will be a while before I'm completely up and running again. Once finished with the Workhorse I'll continue with my sons "new" PC. Of course he will get Windows 10, Pro in this case. Still need to score either a good price GTX 1080 for myself or a GTX 1660 TI for my son.
I also need to find a way to connect earth to the wall plugs upstairs. This old house from 1927 doesn't have any and it's a must for PC use.
Not exactly the vacation time I had in mind. Yes I'm happy with the new Workstation, no I didn't need it really. The bright side is I will be more than ready for a 4K TV, the performance is up to snuff to play it well, with the PC doing the rendering. So in time everything will be a bit better (I hope). It does mean I need to re-run Audio loopback tests to eak out the best performance out of this new rig. Lots to do! No more vacation time... this is the last official day.
. Among other things there was a Behringer DEQ 2496, never used, bought back in 2011 for the Towers.As he's also using my main PC for his Formula 1 2019 game I figured I might as well get a new PC for myself and hand down the old one to him. It will still be quite potent as a gaming rig, despite it's 6 year age.
Instead of buying a brand new PC for myself I shopped the reverbished category. I had seen new Lenovo Workstations that still had PCI support (for the Xonar Essence ST) but to get close to what I was used to, performance wise, would mean emptying my pockets.
So after shopping around I found that a 2017 HP Z440 still had PCI support, sadly the newer ones don't.
In short, I got myself a Z440 with an E-5 1650 V4 processor, a good amount of RAM (32 GB), a 700 watt power supply and moved all the old stuff out of the Lenovo S30 into the HP. I even had to make a molex extension cord as no shop had those in stock anymore. Ah well... everything is up and running, meaning the new PC has all HDD's, the Xonar Essence ST and a freshly installed Windows 7 Pro (yeah I know).
Now I need to install all programs again, my trusty Inventor, JRiver, REW etc. browsing the back-ups for specifics etc. So it will be a while before I'm completely up and running again. Once finished with the Workhorse I'll continue with my sons "new" PC. Of course he will get Windows 10, Pro in this case. Still need to score either a good price GTX 1080 for myself or a GTX 1660 TI for my son.
I also need to find a way to connect earth to the wall plugs upstairs. This old house from 1927 doesn't have any and it's a must for PC use.
Not exactly the vacation time I had in mind. Yes I'm happy with the new Workstation, no I didn't need it really. The bright side is I will be more than ready for a 4K TV, the performance is up to snuff to play it well, with the PC doing the rendering. So in time everything will be a bit better (I hope). It does mean I need to re-run Audio loopback tests to eak out the best performance out of this new rig. Lots to do! No more vacation time...
this is the last official day.
Another round of optimisation
Yes good enough and fixable but next round gets harder/pressure when mother and son realize that new room need some good sound and comes ask father can we move or borrow your good sounding speakers
into the new room so the young people can have some realistic reproduction and feel of the music they listen in there.Yes good enough and fixable but next round gets harder/pressure when mother and son realize that new room need some good sound and comes ask father can we move or borrow your good sounding speakers
That's a great problem to have
!
I can appreciate that not getting done what I wanted on my time off either. I got a 4K LG OLED TV recently when there was a 20% coupon on ebay which made them an attractive if still very expensive price. I think the OLED is worth it if you can afford it. I can't say I notice much difference between high bitrate 1080 and 4K native files in movies (not that I actually get to watch them these days) as the TV does a very good job of upscaling the 1080. Anything coded with X265 HEVC looks really good too even at small file sizes. Just don't try to watch 480p mp4 files, they look terrible when upscaled to 4k. I held off for a long time getting one but the picture is considerably better and it doesn't take 4K content to get it which is a bonus.