yep, may be we should rename the thread from:
The Well Tempered Master Clock - Building a low phase noise/jitter crystal oscillator
into:
The Well Tempered Master Clock - Owning a low phase noise/jitter crystal oscillator and discussing among the owners on implementation and perceived sound quality upgrade.
At least in our minds - it would do the thread good
The Well Tempered Master Clock - Building a low phase noise/jitter crystal oscillator
into:
The Well Tempered Master Clock - Owning a low phase noise/jitter crystal oscillator and discussing among the owners on implementation and perceived sound quality upgrade.
At least in our minds - it would do the thread good
100% agree! As always in life and especially online people troll and also like to make themselves "look big and smart" in life.
100% there are super smart people on this forum but I find in life those that shout they are smart are often not so smart....less is more in my expereince
we all decide what to spend our hard earned money on and if we get pleasure from these things and work for us they it does not matter at all what any one else thinks......they might be technically correct but so what and doe snot matter if we are happy.
No.
I read experiences of others that are posted on various forums where they compare diy designs and commercial designs on the market, and TRY to find the listening experiences and real life comparisons made without financian interest, ,moreso on the smaller forums,written by older users, and not follow the "gift" type of reviews on commercial, large forums. I do not say price mirrors performance as a rule as the scale varies and sometimes things are much more expensive than they should be. On the other hand for a very long time the rockna dac at 10000 was considered by many to be the best R2R Dac and then, after a while, the market got flooded with various discrete r2r dacs, and while many were not as good, they were 90% as good for 20% of the price. Thus, the market is dynamic and at various points in time when technology settles, the price does reflect performance with some exceptions that break this rule, which usually are marketed alot less than the ones that follow it.
Alright then i'll say ear-brain-heart-soul interface. If it were only the brain you were hearing with, you would never feel anything in your chest when listening to music. That's my perception on it, of course you can say ear-brain pleasure hormones but i do not believe that to be true.
Sure, it's easier and quicker to pay for something to be done by someone with more experience than to do it yourself especially if you don't have the right tools on hand and/or the state of mind to do it.
That's what this entire thread is. "Building a low phase noise/jitter crystal oscillator"
But It never was about oscillator design & building. Andrea & Co did all the work
and the fanbois engaged in lyrics. A few of them might even have a solder iron.
Gerhard[/QUOTE]
All i see here are people who appreciate the work done and people who don't, for various reasons, none of which are substantiated by anything constructive or good.
My interest has only been to bring in some common sense.
I hate seeing people waste money following claims that aren't entirely true. I have also had a lot of equipment damaged by well meaning attempts to improve it.
All I can say is, investigate claims made no matter by who and what they are. If you are going to make a change to your equipment, great. But please work neatly and research what you are doing so you have some chance at success. DIY is great when you do things that actually work and make a real difference.
After so many years in the service business, it breaks my heart to tell a customer that they either got ripped off, or their equipment is badly damaged by "improvements". It isn't a surprise that the information or changes are designed or executed by people with little to no training.
I'm not attacking Andreas or anyone else. All I have ever attempted to do was shine a light of truth on the information. We all want to be able to do better and some times this hope becomes a faith thing, and the idea an underdog is being protected. The opposite is true. I'm just trying to protect our members and anyone who reads these threads, and all I have ever asked was some education and research be done by those making claims that are not supported.
If you have actually researched this in a meaningful way and decide to go ahead - great! Just be aware that this particular idea has issues and will not bring you to the point in your system you think it should.
Also, one important consideration. Look at the system or device as a whole and see where the weak points are. Address those first so you actually get something for your efforts and money. In 99.9% of your systems, the clock is not your biggest issue. You are very lucky if it is.
-Chris
I hate seeing people waste money following claims that aren't entirely true. I have also had a lot of equipment damaged by well meaning attempts to improve it.
All I can say is, investigate claims made no matter by who and what they are. If you are going to make a change to your equipment, great. But please work neatly and research what you are doing so you have some chance at success. DIY is great when you do things that actually work and make a real difference.
After so many years in the service business, it breaks my heart to tell a customer that they either got ripped off, or their equipment is badly damaged by "improvements". It isn't a surprise that the information or changes are designed or executed by people with little to no training.
I'm not attacking Andreas or anyone else. All I have ever attempted to do was shine a light of truth on the information. We all want to be able to do better and some times this hope becomes a faith thing, and the idea an underdog is being protected. The opposite is true. I'm just trying to protect our members and anyone who reads these threads, and all I have ever asked was some education and research be done by those making claims that are not supported.
If you have actually researched this in a meaningful way and decide to go ahead - great! Just be aware that this particular idea has issues and will not bring you to the point in your system you think it should.
Also, one important consideration. Look at the system or device as a whole and see where the weak points are. Address those first so you actually get something for your efforts and money. In 99.9% of your systems, the clock is not your biggest issue. You are very lucky if it is.
-Chris
I am going to agree with the above as being a valid point of view.
However, I would like to point out some of an opposing view too: Andrea set out to make the best clocks he could. His stated plan is to make the best clock, then the best FIFO buffer, and then the best dac he can. Then we will see what he ends up with. At that point there may be a weak spot that is not the clock (even if lesser clocks are a little audibly inferior). Maybe there will be further work on any weak spot if found, we will have to wait and see.
A problem at this point is that many people have dacs with IMHO rather mediocre clock implementations. IMHO and IME the clocks could be significantly improved or replaced at lower cost and complexity than if using Andrea's clocks (although still not equaling Andrea clock measured performance). For many dacs that might offer a good price/performance trade off. However, nobody in the forum seem to have mastered exactly how to do that, at least not anyone willing to go public with it at this time.
So for many people an option available now is to stick with the clocks they have or else switch to using Andrea's clocks, which may be a bit of overkill given the other weaknesses of many dacs. Some people will chose to apply improvements available now and maybe hope further improvements become available later.
IMHO there is no need to get overly excited if some people are enthusiastic about choosing such a path. Its their hobby, their choice.
Last edited:
Hi Mark,
How can I disagree with you? Many clocks are not that great, but they aren't horrible either. Generally, if the existing clock is that bad, you have other issues that are more important.
I think there are other options out there that would take less work and improve a mediocre clock to an acceptable level. This isn't something I have researched a great deal, I can only comment on what I have seen over the years.
How can I disagree with you? Many clocks are not that great, but they aren't horrible either. Generally, if the existing clock is that bad, you have other issues that are more important.
I think there are other options out there that would take less work and improve a mediocre clock to an acceptable level. This isn't something I have researched a great deal, I can only comment on what I have seen over the years.
This one statement above by a MOD here gets to the heart of why this thread has been corrupted.
Since when did it become OK for a MOD to tell so many of us who had no issues, tested different clocks in our digital journey and were happy with the results using Andrea's clocks that it cannot be so!
The mind boggles at the level of denial of our results by someone who has not even tried Andrea's clocks.
Hi Sligolad,
Well, you seem to be severely confused as to what a member who also is a moderator is all about. We are members and have our own expertise and view points like everyone else. We also have extra work to do above and beyond what you have. So why, just because we do extra work should we be prevented from participating and sharing our knowledge?
Your statement makes a number of assumptions of course.
Secondly, as many know and I have said, I am an audio professional with well over four decades of experience. I have direct experience with recording studio digital recording equipment as well as consumer and professional reproduction equipment and have been trained by several factory representatives on CD electronics and understand the concepts behind the technology. I also know what inherent short comings there are, and practical limitations of the technology. Believe me, you don't want to know the truth, and I am sure not going to spend countless hours explaining it and then debating with people who have no training or experience.
I currently and have since CD players were brought to market been repairing and in some cases improving (for real) the performance of these machines. I also have a specific piece of high quality test equipment designed to measure the performance of clocks. It uses an S-C cut, double oven oscillator for the base clock at 10 MHz (standard test equipment frequency).
From experience spanning decades and covering all kinds of audio modifications, I can tell you the average audiophile cannot tell even if the equipment is operating properly, never mind if something makes it better. If the equipment does work reasonably well, and you decide it is perfect, then by gosh, it is working perfectly even if it isn't. I also can tell you that many "upgrades" can detract from the normal performance, and a few things may improve it.
I can't tell you how many times a person presents equipment for the latest internet mod sensation has equipment that isn't even working properly. Generally, after the equipment is returned to proper operating status the customer does hear a difference for the better and often will forgo the "improvements" that were planned.
Good equipment is designed by trained teams of engineers. A hobbyist normally does not have access to the equipment, training or experience required to improve on a design. No surprise if you think about it. I'm not a good car technician, even though I have rebuilt (successfully) engines, because I don't have the equipment or experience. I'm not a good accountant either, or many other things.
So, you have a problem with a person who has experience, training and equipment (there is over $100K on my bench in current and quality test equipment) suggesting that an hobbyist might not have the perfect solution? Okay, cool.
Believe what you want, it is your money and equipment. But for those considering this, all I have said was to do some actual research, use common sense and approach the decision intelligently.
When you move to improve anything, the very first thing that needs to be done is to look at the entire system or device, then determine where improvements would be helpful. The clock used in any particular CD player or DAC is not normally the weak link. If the entire thing is low quality, you're wasting your money and will not see a real improvement. That's a fact of life, too bad. If your equipment is so good that the clock is the biggest problem - fantastic! You're lucky to have such great gear, but in that case, the jitter and other issues present in the recorded material is greater and once again, your money is wasted.
Always look at the big picture. Also, no longer will some person working without a lot of support will you have any significant improvement made. Everything to do with digital audio has a long development history and is highly engineered.
-Chris
Well, you seem to be severely confused as to what a member who also is a moderator is all about. We are members and have our own expertise and view points like everyone else. We also have extra work to do above and beyond what you have. So why, just because we do extra work should we be prevented from participating and sharing our knowledge?
Your statement makes a number of assumptions of course.
Secondly, as many know and I have said, I am an audio professional with well over four decades of experience. I have direct experience with recording studio digital recording equipment as well as consumer and professional reproduction equipment and have been trained by several factory representatives on CD electronics and understand the concepts behind the technology. I also know what inherent short comings there are, and practical limitations of the technology. Believe me, you don't want to know the truth, and I am sure not going to spend countless hours explaining it and then debating with people who have no training or experience.
I currently and have since CD players were brought to market been repairing and in some cases improving (for real) the performance of these machines. I also have a specific piece of high quality test equipment designed to measure the performance of clocks. It uses an S-C cut, double oven oscillator for the base clock at 10 MHz (standard test equipment frequency).
From experience spanning decades and covering all kinds of audio modifications, I can tell you the average audiophile cannot tell even if the equipment is operating properly, never mind if something makes it better. If the equipment does work reasonably well, and you decide it is perfect, then by gosh, it is working perfectly even if it isn't. I also can tell you that many "upgrades" can detract from the normal performance, and a few things may improve it.
I can't tell you how many times a person presents equipment for the latest internet mod sensation has equipment that isn't even working properly. Generally, after the equipment is returned to proper operating status the customer does hear a difference for the better and often will forgo the "improvements" that were planned.
Good equipment is designed by trained teams of engineers. A hobbyist normally does not have access to the equipment, training or experience required to improve on a design. No surprise if you think about it. I'm not a good car technician, even though I have rebuilt (successfully) engines, because I don't have the equipment or experience. I'm not a good accountant either, or many other things.
So, you have a problem with a person who has experience, training and equipment (there is over $100K on my bench in current and quality test equipment) suggesting that an hobbyist might not have the perfect solution? Okay, cool.
Believe what you want, it is your money and equipment. But for those considering this, all I have said was to do some actual research, use common sense and approach the decision intelligently.
When you move to improve anything, the very first thing that needs to be done is to look at the entire system or device, then determine where improvements would be helpful. The clock used in any particular CD player or DAC is not normally the weak link. If the entire thing is low quality, you're wasting your money and will not see a real improvement. That's a fact of life, too bad. If your equipment is so good that the clock is the biggest problem - fantastic! You're lucky to have such great gear, but in that case, the jitter and other issues present in the recorded material is greater and once again, your money is wasted.
Always look at the big picture. Also, no longer will some person working without a lot of support will you have any significant improvement made. Everything to do with digital audio has a long development history and is highly engineered.
-Chris
yep, and there is something not clean to continue while the starter is banned. Despite some continue to dirt it and its author while keeping its work. That's not fair or wise either !
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should, no ?
It should be open for the builders exchanges and not for the toilett paper orthodoxia that already won and that made from one of the good thread a water closed room !
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should, no ?
It should be open for the builders exchanges and not for the toilett paper orthodoxia that already won and that made from one of the good thread a water closed room !
Last edited:
Chris,Your messages are so long, repetitive, i wonder if someone reads them again
Déjà vu.https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/dig...itter-crystal-oscillator-427.html#post6710987
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/dig...itter-crystal-oscillator-405.html#post6708284
I'd rather trust the morons who rock 50000USD wilsons and listen to 50000USD dac's and choose between many of those in gatherings of 400000 USD gear while all of them conclude that a 30000USD external clock improves the performance. Yeah everything i just mentioned should lack a 0 at the end but that doesn't matter, in reality, what matters is that the best clocks do create a difference and whoever denies that either hasn't experimented with gear like that, commercial or DIY, or simply has other agenda promoted by the usage of long phrases and little knowledge. In fact what i just said contains more knowledge :
In short : There are hundreds of very rich people who all have reach, individually and collectively the same conclusion when it comes to the best digital on the market, and those digital sources and dac's have alot in common with DIY-ing SOTA clocking. It's like someone expeditely doesn't want the DIY community to have access to that same level of digital, like someone is much rather representing the high end commercial vendors while pretending to benefit diy-ers. What has the world come to ?
What else exactly is there in a CD transport outside of laser, motor and the chips that all depend on clocks ? How bad can they be , these imaginary digital chains that have many other problems, when the whole damn audio thing's essence is made out of DELTA ENERGY AND DELTA TIME and clock is the most important when it comes to TIMING?
Hey, i'm no expert, i haven't fixed anything, i'd rather understand how things really work before i start to work on them.
In short : There are hundreds of very rich people who all have reach, individually and collectively the same conclusion when it comes to the best digital on the market, and those digital sources and dac's have alot in common with DIY-ing SOTA clocking. It's like someone expeditely doesn't want the DIY community to have access to that same level of digital, like someone is much rather representing the high end commercial vendors while pretending to benefit diy-ers. What has the world come to ?
What else exactly is there in a CD transport outside of laser, motor and the chips that all depend on clocks ? How bad can they be , these imaginary digital chains that have many other problems, when the whole damn audio thing's essence is made out of DELTA ENERGY AND DELTA TIME and clock is the most important when it comes to TIMING?
Hey, i'm no expert, i haven't fixed anything, i'd rather understand how things really work before i start to work on them.
Last edited:
Not until you disclose what kind of difference is created by the best clock.
If you want to work on sound replaying system, focus on speaker quality and room acoustics because that's where the real bottleneck is.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.