Volt drivers in 3 way system, help needed

[gaborbela]

Thank you

Hello

All 3 driver I picked gave similar sim result. Probably the Revelator is the best but I owned two pair Revelators 5" and 7" nothing special just very expensive.
Do not misunderstand great drivers but for that price??
I think I go with the Alcone, if the producer don't lie it has good sensitivity, look like a well built driver.
I have a alu membrane Visaton AL130 and I like it a lot. I chose that over the 5" Revelator.
Thanks one more time.
I will have to tune after my ear anyway. The port tube is flared type. 3" but at the output 6" and the input about 4.5" 11 and 1/4" long.
I will cut out from the middle one inch after another and test it com pared to the original.
If I tune it F3 to 31-32Hz I get it perfect on the line. With the room gain I still I have F3 way under 30Hz.
All tuning must be done step by step listening over and over.
Thanks one more time
I got similar simulation with that program to.

Greetings Gabor🙂

 

[Inductor]

SCANSPEAK 26W/8861T00 VB = 75.0 L, FB = 20.0 Hz, Qb = 7.0
F3 outside(no gain) = 31Hz, F6 (-3 with room gain) = 25Hz

 

[gaborbela]

Hello
That is beautiful! Absolutely nice.
Thank you!
The 89.3dB mean the woofer a bit more sensitive than the factory speech?
Or 2.82V/m allow some move up and done.
Do you think these woofer can be rated good??
Scanspeak Discovery 26W/8534G 10" Aluminum Cone Woofer 8 ohm: Madisound Speaker Store
Scan Speak took over the Discovery series from Vifa.
How I stated to me most important the first 10-15W quality.
It would be great to have the possibility to do listening test. Com pare all 3 driver.
Life not so easy.
Any way I greatly appreciated what you done to me!
Thanks one more time.
If I remember well you offered me the Davis driver but after I found out only has 25mm voice coil I drop that.
Greetings Gabor

 

[gaborbela]

Hello
Please do not do the Discovery simulation.
That need at least 90L enclosure.
I will chose between the Alcone and the Scan Speak 26W/8861T00 .
I afraid from the Davis.
Is not cheap and I had bad experience with a similar carbon membrane Audax.
I know the membrane not all. A lot of other think influence the sound to.
Greetings Gabor

 

[Inductor]

ALCONE AC 10 HE, VB = 75.0 L, FB = 31.0 Hz, Qb = 7.0
F3 outside(no gain) = 31Hz, F6 (-3 with room gain) = 27Hz

Port tube about 3-3.5"/9 cm diam gives a length to be adjusted at 31Hz of ~8"/19.66 cm and a resonant frequency of the port of ~874 Hz.
Note: I'm not using the flared calculations.😎

 

[Inductor]

Hello
That is beautiful! Absolutely nice.
Thank you!
The 89.3dB mean the woofer a bit more sensitive than the factory speech?
Or 2.82V/m allow some move up and done.
Do you think these woofer can be rated good??
Scanspeak Discovery 26W/8534G 10" Aluminum Cone Woofer 8 ohm: Madisound Speaker Store
Scan Speak took over the Discovery series from Vifa.
How I stated to me most important the first 10-15W quality.
It would be great to have the possibility to do listening test. Com pare all 3 driver.
Life not so easy.
Any way I greatly appreciated what you done to me!
Thanks one more time.

You are welcome.

...If I remember well you offered me the Davis driver but after I found out only has 25mm voice coil I drop that.
Greetings Gabor

Sorry that was Duarte.

have you tryed Davis woofers 92db?

25SCA10W - Davis 10 inch woofer carbon - Europe Audio

or

AE Speakers --- Superb Quality, Unforgettable Performance, Definitely.

why dont you had a active sub to do the low extension you want ?

i tryed several woofers on my set , finally decided to stop spending money so i kept the 4 Visatons GF200 i had and got a JBL E250P sub , best decision ever.

 

[gaborbela]

Thank you so much!
Out of the two driver which one you would pick for yourself?
I have to let you know the last 6-7 years I'm listening to a Visaton AL130.
Aluminium membrane (very precise, fast but with some music can be clinical, over precise).
Of course it is much depend on the amplifier etc.
After that when I tested the Monacor Kevlar cone I found it to soft specially at the deep bass area.
I will see how much money can get together, if enough I go with the Scan Speak paper cone, if not I'll buy the Alcone.
OK the Davis was not from you. I drop that.
I found on the net somebody less than one hour test decided that Davis not a keeper..
Greetings Gabor

 

[Inductor]

Thank you so much!
Out of the two driver which one you would pick for yourself?...

To make a choice I would have to check the one that would not block at Xmech. Also the one with bigger voice coil or vented voice coil for lesser compression. Of course that's in a pro environment. Also at crossover some drivers model better or are easy compared with "exotics" (more crossover components/more hassle/more expensive). The Alcone is/has probably +1dB (@passband) if important. The Scanspeak is +5dB at 20Hz for sub-sonics (~10dB attenuation of the Scanspeak vs ~15dB attenuation of the Alcone 10").

I think you should start another thread with this name:
"ALCONE AC 10 HE vs SCANSPEAK 26W/8861T00 - Which one is more musical?"
this is if that's the most important parameter for others to give some input.
Alcone Reference by Joseph d'Appolito

 

[gaborbela]

Hello

I have a question please if you can give me a simple answer I would be grateful for that.
Do the Qts has much influence about sound pressure (sensitivity)
I just found out someone on in German purchased a set Alcone driver what I want to buy to. Did some mesurments...
The factory data unfortunately far from the shared data! The company gave Qts 325 but the truth is Qts=41
I know high Qts not the best for BR system, what is the optimal Qts in 75L
Here is the measured data. These is the real (measured) speech.
hifisound eShop * -* ALCONE 10 HE - ALU MEMBRAN * R
Is a lot if differences between the company data and the measures data.
Company ................. Measured

Fs ---- 28 >>>>>>>>>>> 31
Was ----100L >>>>>>>>>>> 93L
Qts ----- 0.325 >>>>>>>>>> 0.41

I do not understand never why the speakers companies lie about the most important information
I purchased a pair 8" Monacor Kevlar Woofers, the factory sensitivity 90db
my friend calculated 88.25.
He didn't went further to measure other shared data but I got upset when I got the info.
In case the after the measured speech the Alcone not the best to my 75L enclosure I have to go with the Scan speak
Or there is another Scan speak called discovery
That has fiber glass membrane good sensitivity but it has only 38mm voice coil instead 51mm. Scan Speak 5" revelator use that size of voice coil.
These is nice woofer all do it has only 38mm voice coil and much lower power handling.
Sensitivity 89db , Was 153L, Fs25
http://www.solen.ca/pdf/scan/26w8534g00.pdf
Please let me know after the new speech which woofer would you chose.
I think I must wait until has enough money to get the Revelators if those are the best.
Right now I have $550..
I need at leas 300-350 more because I have to pay taxes to.
Thanks one more time your help .

Greetings Gabor🙂

 

[Inductor]

Hello

I have a question please if you can give me a simple answer I would be grateful for that.
Do the Qts has much influence about sound pressure (sensitivity)
I just found out someone on in German purchased a set Alcone driver what I want to buy to. Did some mesurments...
The factory data unfortunately far from the shared data! The company gave Qts 325 but the truth is Qts=41
I know high Qts not the best for BR system, what is the optimal Qts in 75L
Here is the measured data. These is the real (measured) speech.
hifisound eShop * -* ALCONE 10 HE - ALU MEMBRAN * R
Is a lot if differences between the company data and the measures data.
Company ................. Measured

Fs ---- 28 >>>>>>>>>>> 31
Was ----100L >>>>>>>>>>> 93L
Qts ----- 0.325 >>>>>>>>>> 0.41

I do not understand never why the speakers companies lie about the most important information
I purchased a pair 8" Monacor Kevlar Woofers, the factory sensitivity 90db
my friend calculated 88.25.
He didn't went further to measure other shared data but I got upset when I got the info.
In case the after the measured speech the Alcone not the best to my 75L enclosure I have to go with the Scan speak...

Is perfectly acceptable a variation in driver of about xx% at the factory. When they are tested in the chain, the machine/operator that measures parameters just says "GOOD" WHEN THE DRIVER IS IN THE MARGINS. Then as you know you can have more restricted margins or pick your own matched pairs, what is more expensive.
I find the BL parameter to be more interesting in the Alcone AC 10 HE (BL=13.2) than on the Scanspeak 26W/8861T00 (BL=9.9).

BL: Driver motor strength.
The higher the value the stronger the motor. Given in tesla meters. Drivers with high BL values of around 30 or more have the ability to control their cones very accurately. These drivers will almost certainly have very large magnets and will weigh a lot. Note also that drivers with high BL values will normally have a low Qts value. Drivers with a low BL value of 20 or less will be less able to control their cones. These drivers will not feel as tight as those with higher BL’s. They will also normally have higher Qts values of over 0.28 and while at home in ported or bandpass cabinets I call these drivers mud motors because of there slow and heavy sound with a less than perfect transient response. Speakerplans.com

Qms is also interesting in the Alcone 4.100 vs Scanspeak 5.200. See pic at the end of the simulation/elect. model of an idealized speaker driver. CR4 - Thread: Acoustical Impedance Tube with paper here: http://online.physics.uiuc.edu/cour...Spring01/PPoongbunkor/Piya_Poongbunkor_TS.pdf
Now, I find strange that Qes is changing from 0.35 to 0.45 on the Alcone driver. Anyway, driver parameters can change with:

• Temperature
• Altitude
• Humidity
• Ampli damping factor Damping factor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

or just being from a new driver vs one that was soften. Parameters also change, with conditions, from measuring it in open back or closed box and size of enclosure/distance/method.

I also like this saying:

The diaphragm is often too light or stiff, why the level rises towards the treble. The narrowing of sound field should cause a rise on 6dB, dependent of the size of baffle, but no more, and the increase must happen in a gentle manner.
It is strange with these opinions. The diaphragm is best when it is light and stiff, they say. But that is wrong. The weight must be balanced with the magnetic force present. The stiffness must not give rise of level at first break up frequency, so the stiffness must be softened, without the main goal of stiffness is lost. It is always a question of balance, and in far more complicated than thought of...
Duelund, DK (rip)

 

[gaborbela]

Hello
Thank you , so nothing wrong with the Alcone.
I reed these info and get confused.
Alcone AC 10 HE, Lautsprecher - HIFI-FORUM
Can you translate with Google??
Thanks one more time.
You know I purchased to the project Audax woven carbon membrane woofers, Vifa, Scan speak, Monacor so on.
Finally I would like to get a pair woofer has enough good quality bass. I lost a lot of money because I purchase all those drivers and after I sold them half a price. Now I went up with my enclosure 75L and 10". Now I just want to get the right woofer. Not "perfect" just close to my taste.
Sorry about my frustration, I just want to understand my situation.
Thanks

Greetings Gabor

 

[Inductor]

---Or there is another Scan speak called discovery
That has fiber glass membrane good sensitivity but it has only 38mm voice coil instead 51mm. Scan Speak 5" revelator use that size of voice coil.
These is nice woofer all do it has only 38mm voice coil and much lower power handling.
Sensitivity 89db , Was 153L, Fs25
http://www.solen.ca/pdf/scan/26w8534g00.pdf
Please let me know after the new speech which woofer would you chose.
I think I must wait until has enough money to get the Revelators if those are the best.
Right now I have $550..
I need at leas 300-350 more because I have to pay taxes to.
Thanks one more time your help .

Greetings Gabor🙂

SCANSPEAK 26W8534G00, VB = 75.0 L, FB = 22.0 Hz, Qb = 7.0
F3 outside(no gain) = 35Hz, F6 (-3 with room gain) = 27Hz

 

[bbggg]

Do the Qts has much influence about sound pressure (sensitivity)

Yes, in a roundabout way. Qts is mostly influenced by Qes (Qms contribution is usually minimal in woofers), and the inverse of Qes is proportional to (Bl)^2. (Bl) is the product of the cumulative length of the voice coil (l) immersed in magnetic flux (B). A driver's efficiency is proportional to (Bl)^2 as well, and since sensitivity is directly related to efficiency, there is indeed the correlation you seek: both depend largely on the value of (Bl)^2. Voice coil length (l) is obviously stable, so the real determinant of all these is B, the strength of the magnet. When everything else is equal, a higher B means a lower Qes and higher sensitivity.

 

[gaborbela]

Hello
Thank you very much.
These Discovery Scan Speak dos not the best.
I think price per value the best option still the Alcone.
Probably next week I order a pair from Germany.
The Scan Revelator very nice but the price is double.
Now I increased the enclosure from 50L a bit over 75L even the 8" Monacor SPH-200KEP sound almost acceptable without any tuning. I just lay the driver face to the 6" hole (I cut that for the flared port tube)
It does not sound bad at all
hifisound eShop*-*MONACOR SPH 200 KE KEVLAR*
One woofer run about 10 hours and start to get better or I started to get used to it??
I like fat, deep bass but must be controlled (precise if I can say that).
I got addicted to the sound of my Visaton AL130.
Kevlar a bit soft all do I think I will not get red of the drivers. One day I'll use them in a two way 50L enclosure. Not bad driver at all com pare to the other drivers I tested and sold them.
Audax, Scan Speak Carbon paper, Vifa so on all 8" drivers. The Audax had very nice mid range but thin bass. The Vifa sensitivity 85db good bass. In the data they say 175W continuous but it was probably 30W. The Scan speak I don't know nothing exceptionally.
Thanks one more time.
These SB has very nice parameters after the data but someone warn me to sty away from that driver it has a very weak motor.
SB Acoustics SB29NRX75-6 10" Woofer: Madisound Speaker Store
Hard to believe it a bit because it has huge vented voice coil 75.5mm. Force factor BL 10.8 I don't know I just want to collect as much information as possible before I purchase. But sometimes some guy give bad information because he didn't tested the driver well etc.
In the SB case I feel somehow that way. The guy who tested and warn me he wrote the company data far from the reality, and it has weak motor.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...ir-sb-acoustics-sb29nrx75-6-10-woofers-2.html
They produce them after the Vifa drivers.
Vifa now moved to China and use the new magnet in their drivers.
I'm really tired to search for woofer to these project, especially if I think I already lost at least around $600 to 800.
If the Alcone reference to it will be good to me to. Alcone Reference by Joseph d'Appolito


Greetings Gabor

 

[lduarte1973]

if you have bought the revelators right from the start you would have save money and probably endup with better sound...

 

[gaborbela]

Hello
Not all Revelator sound excellent.
I had a 5" sticky membrane and I prefer the Visaton AL130 over that.
Also I had a pair 7" that was OK (clear paper membrane). You know we used to say if I knew I fell done I would seat before.
What happened in the past I can cry over but that does not help at all.
Now! Now I want to chose finally something I can enjoy it.
I think I paid the "learning fees" so I'm more careful.
Greetings Gabor

 

[Inductor]

... In the SB case I feel somehow that way. The guy who tested and warn me he wrote the company data far from the reality, and it has weak motor.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...ir-sb-acoustics-sb29nrx75-6-10-woofers-2.html

I couldn't read any of the wrongness you mention. First I don't know. Now from specs and people saying, everything I could understand was, first the person doesn't have experience in the subject, second the mentioned woofer, as tinitus say's, is good for a 3-way and not for a xover at 900Hz (or 2-Way). Third the problem of the measurement method. I think is correct and is derived of the fact that was taken at 31cm (IEC baffle, mic distance 31.6 cm, SPL shown for 2.83 V / 1 m) but of course then after you have to multiply to give the right sensitivity at 1m - Sensitivity (2.83 V / 1 m) 88 dB.
So I don't see any problem. Bl is good and Xmax=11 mm is very good, only Sd looks like is much less 312 vs 346 cm^2 of the Alcone.
SB Acoustics 10" SB29NRX75-6, VB = 75.0 L, FB = 22.0 Hz, Qb = 7.0
F3 outside(no gain) = 23Hz, F6 (-3 with room gain) = 20Hz
SB Acoustics :: 10" SB29NRX75-6

 

[Inductor]

Hello
Not all Revelator sound excellent.
I had a 5" sticky membrane and I prefer the Visaton AL130 over that.
Also I had a pair 7" that was OK (clear paper membrane). You know we used to say if I knew I fell done I would seat before.
What happened in the past I can cry over but that does not help at all.
Now! Now I want to chose finally something I can enjoy it.
I think I paid the "learning fees" so I'm more careful.
Greetings Gabor

Yes, I agree with you. I have many drivers at home that I never used. Old speakers and new drivers. But some of the best where the pro drivers I bought for a 3-Way (hifi) from Beyma (CD/Horn and bullet tweeter) and HH 12" woofer (100dB) a manufacturer that doesn't exist anymore. They have been working until now I have my straight good behaved Focals.😎
I just don't understand what you wrote about: "if I knew I fell done I would seat before". In Google it gave me:
How can dogs sense when you are pregnant?😀

 

[gaborbela]

Hello Inductor

I wrote that to lduarte1973 not to you.
He wrote to me if first I buy the Revelator I wouldn't have so much problem and I would save money to.
That is true.
But when I bought the driver I did ask about it and they highly offered to me.
For example the Vifa was offered by Madisound (they made test and chose the best driver feet my enclosure.
It has very natural sound and good base but 85db useless for SE tube amps.
All do I'll build 100W N Pass Aleph2 and Aleph X to.
That is a Hungarian proverb.
It mean in these case if I know those drivers does not feet my need I wouldn't spend my money on.
We doesn't the future, also I don't know a driver until I test them: so if I knew I fell done I seat done before so avoid the fail.
In reality to avoid the wasted money.
Another similar proverb "After rain apron" to protect from rain.
To late I get wet🙄
After I tested and doesn't like them easy to give smart advise "if you buy at first the Revelator"
He is right but Audax produce great drivers, Vifa great brand, I had the Scan speak carbon paper driver 'actually that was the worst to me'. Probably because it need much larger enclosure.
Not all Revelator sound great to my ear, of course different enclosure give different result. The sound is relative, I like these other guy like that..
I do not like the sticky Scan speak 5". Hard to drive it. And a bit "muddy" in the mid-range area.
I wrote to that guy a personal message about the BS drivers. And his answer was stay away from that driver it has very week motor and the factory parameter far of from the reality.
I don't know if is true but to me look like a great driver, well built, over 5Kg driver .
I need good woofer from 450Hz done ..
The SB has paper membrane (I love the good paper membrane).
Thank you for the simulation on the BS. I love it but I'm really confused when people say stay away from that driver.
So you agree with me the SB is not a bad driver for woofer.
Greetings Gabor

 

[Inductor]

Hello Inductor

I wrote that to lduarte1973 not to you.
He wrote to me if first I buy the Revelator I wouldn't have so much problem and I would save money to.
That is true.
But when I bought the driver I did ask about it and they highly offered to me.
For example the Vifa was offered by Madisound (they made test and chose the best driver feet my enclosure.
It has very natural sound and good base but 85db useless for SE tube amps.
All do I'll build 100W N Pass Aleph2 and Aleph X to.
That is a Hungarian proverb.
It mean in these case if I know those drivers does not feet my need I wouldn't spend my money on.
We doesn't the future, also I don't know a driver until I test them: so if I knew I fell done I seat done before so avoid the fail.
In reality to avoid the wasted money.
Another similar proverb "After rain apron" to protect from rain.
To late I get wet🙄
After I tested and doesn't like them easy to give smart advise "if you buy at first the Revelator"
He is right but Audax produce great drivers, Vifa great brand, I had the Scan speak carbon paper driver 'actually that was the worst to me'. Probably because it need much larger enclosure.
Not all Revelator sound great to my ear, of course different enclosure give different result. The sound is relative, I like these other guy like that..
I do not like the sticky Scan speak 5". Hard to drive it. And a bit "muddy" in the mid-range area.
I wrote to that guy a personal message about the BS drivers. And his answer was stay away from that driver it has very week motor and the factory parameter far of from the reality.
I don't know if is true but to me look like a great driver, well built, over 5Kg driver .
I need good woofer from 450Hz done ..
The SB has paper membrane (I love the good paper membrane).
Thank you for the simulation on the BS. I love it but I'm really confused when people say stay away from that driver.
So you agree with me the SB is not a bad driver for woofer.
Greetings Gabor

Just have in mind...

...It has very natural sound and good base but 85db useless for SE tube amps.

and...

SB Acoustics 10" SB29NRX75-6 Sensitivity (2.83 V / 1 m) 88 dB

So it's about twice the difference on ~2dB's (from 88 to 90dB Alcone). I would prefer having 2x drivers Alcone in Isobaric at a good price, if you ask me. (Than one that is less 2dB). If you want high sensitivity better you look for it.
Jobb félni, mint megijedni. - American Proverb.😎

You should look less and test less and model the drivers you want and feel good with, so you don't go around in circles.
Yesterday I found a "new magic driver". It's from a company that was bought by JBL. It's a 10" driver and a potential good mid with 98/100dB from 200 to 2K. It's a Selenium Midbass 10MB3P.