I got from a junk store a very clean Sony DVP-NS75H DVD player, for 10 squid. Sounds very good to me, but being a curious nature I took the think in our university lab and took a close look at the digital performance.
The frequency response is 20Hz-20KHz +/-0.06dB. The noise floor is at -98.2dB, within the experimental errors to the theoretical limit of -98.1dB for 16bit quantization errors. THD (without noise) is -134dB at 1KHz. Jitter was under 200pS peak to peak.
I used the Bink free audio test CD that I burned myself from a set of flacs, and a R&S audio analyzer set at 24bit 44.1KHz sampling digital input, fed through the optical link (the S/PDIF link rendered essentially the same results). Of course, these measurements are targeting the digital part only, the D/A conversion is a different story (I'll take a look at that ASAP).
This being said, where should I look (other than in my wallet) to find a difference to a, say, 10k audiophile CD transport like the Wadia 27?
The frequency response is 20Hz-20KHz +/-0.06dB. The noise floor is at -98.2dB, within the experimental errors to the theoretical limit of -98.1dB for 16bit quantization errors. THD (without noise) is -134dB at 1KHz. Jitter was under 200pS peak to peak.
I used the Bink free audio test CD that I burned myself from a set of flacs, and a R&S audio analyzer set at 24bit 44.1KHz sampling digital input, fed through the optical link (the S/PDIF link rendered essentially the same results). Of course, these measurements are targeting the digital part only, the D/A conversion is a different story (I'll take a look at that ASAP).
This being said, where should I look (other than in my wallet) to find a difference to a, say, 10k audiophile CD transport like the Wadia 27?
The big differences are high price, shiny exterior, fanciful reviews. That's true not only for CD players.
Btw, the first CD player by Sony is not much worse with a bit lower linearity and a bit higher jitter (~300 ps total correlated).
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Any $10 CD drive will read correct data from a CD...
This technology has been around for so long, the manufacturers have kind of figured it out...
> This being said, where should I look (other than in my wallet) to find
> a difference to a, say, 10k audiophile CD transport like the Wadia 27?
There is no difference in the digital data (unless the player has a serious bug, or digital volume control).
There can be differences in jitter on the digital output, and things like noise (HF common mode noise on the spdif cable, etc). Of course if you use optical, common mode noise isn't an issue.
Wether the DAC faithfully reproduces jitter/noise in the output signal or eliminates it is "another problem"...
This technology has been around for so long, the manufacturers have kind of figured it out...
> This being said, where should I look (other than in my wallet) to find
> a difference to a, say, 10k audiophile CD transport like the Wadia 27?
There is no difference in the digital data (unless the player has a serious bug, or digital volume control).
There can be differences in jitter on the digital output, and things like noise (HF common mode noise on the spdif cable, etc). Of course if you use optical, common mode noise isn't an issue.
Wether the DAC faithfully reproduces jitter/noise in the output signal or eliminates it is "another problem"...
A decent transport should give the correct data (as probably does your Sony, so long as it doesn't have remote volume control on its S/PDIF out) and also inject the lowest possible common-mode noise into your DAC. If your Sony has an SMPSU it might well fall down on this latter requirement.
Most of the time the better players will have far better DACs and better audio circuitry generally.
An "audiophile" CD player is one that:
1. Has a very good sound (1 to 10% better than a "regular" CD player).
2. Usually cost more.
3. Usually is better constructed and using premium parts, and a better implementation of them parts, like two quality DACs per channel for example.
1. Has a very good sound (1 to 10% better than a "regular" CD player).
2. Usually cost more.
3. Usually is better constructed and using premium parts, and a better implementation of them parts, like two quality DACs per channel for example.
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audiophile CD player ....bla bla bla ...
compare by listening to your favorite cd
My Arcam CD36 is considerably more pleasant to listen to than its predecessor. This is mainly down to the implementation of 8 x parallel DACs and far better audio circuitry.
Of course what you are listening to, where you are listening and the rest of your system will all play a part in how much difference you will hear.
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I get loads of people asking me what Hi-Fi to buy and what to avoid. OK there are the obvious candidates for poor build quality and very poor sound but once you get above the high street level of Hi-Fi I always tell them, "listen - your ears will tell you what is best for you".
If you can hear an improvement then the money spent on achieving it will be well spent. If you can't it's money wasted.
As long as you realise that the other components in the system make a considerable contribution towards the overall sound too.
Some people will say that the source is the most important, some will say that the speakers are. Crap in = crap out. A $million CD player will sound rubbish with a poor amp and speakers. And a $million amplifier wont improve a poor source, nor will the speakers.
At the High end of Hi-Fi you start to hear "signature" type sound. Different manufacturers target different aspects of what they deem as perfection. I like the Arcam coupled to my Pass Aleph 4. It does produce an almost "tubey" type sound, which is pleasant on my ears. I found the Pass F5 too harsh but many many others swear by the F5.
I was amazed many years ago when I first delved into Super-Fi. I bought a Denon PMA 737 amplifier, and, for the first time, I could hear real differences between speaker cables. I'm not talking about snake oil cables but just different gauges of cable.
I did have a Sony CD player, unfortunately it was let down by poor choices in the audio chain. Some manufacturers play on their reputation, we all know that. Denon were a good choice a while ago as they were an unknown. They still produce reasonable gear but as their reputation grows so do their prices,
In the mid Hi-Fi range, Kenwood also compete very well.
I always find the mid-range most critical. With a good amplifier and speakers listen to vocals of your music. Poor component choice often turns an "S" into a "TSSssssss"
If you can hear an improvement then the money spent on achieving it will be well spent. If you can't it's money wasted.
As long as you realise that the other components in the system make a considerable contribution towards the overall sound too.
Some people will say that the source is the most important, some will say that the speakers are. Crap in = crap out. A $million CD player will sound rubbish with a poor amp and speakers. And a $million amplifier wont improve a poor source, nor will the speakers.
At the High end of Hi-Fi you start to hear "signature" type sound. Different manufacturers target different aspects of what they deem as perfection. I like the Arcam coupled to my Pass Aleph 4. It does produce an almost "tubey" type sound, which is pleasant on my ears. I found the Pass F5 too harsh but many many others swear by the F5.
I was amazed many years ago when I first delved into Super-Fi. I bought a Denon PMA 737 amplifier, and, for the first time, I could hear real differences between speaker cables. I'm not talking about snake oil cables but just different gauges of cable.
I did have a Sony CD player, unfortunately it was let down by poor choices in the audio chain. Some manufacturers play on their reputation, we all know that. Denon were a good choice a while ago as they were an unknown. They still produce reasonable gear but as their reputation grows so do their prices,
In the mid Hi-Fi range, Kenwood also compete very well.
I always find the mid-range most critical. With a good amplifier and speakers listen to vocals of your music. Poor component choice often turns an "S" into a "TSSssssss"
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Audiophile CD player costs at least $10,000
Anything less than $10,000 doesn't sound good at all.
The best is to spend around $20,000 to get high-end audiophile gear.
Above should be applied to all components - not only CD players.
Nick
Anything less than $10,000 doesn't sound good at all.
The best is to spend around $20,000 to get high-end audiophile gear.
Above should be applied to all components - not only CD players.
Nick
$20,000 😱? Did they use military tech. and hire some alien in their line production?
Follow this logic:
A chain can be only as stong as its weakest link.
Each subsequent component in the audio chain should be better that the preceding component, otherwise it would degrade the sound quality.
Human perception is logarithmic, about 3dB change can be perceived by most people, that is about +40%.
If you play back an average (20$) CD, you need a 40% above average CD player (100$ -> 140 $). Then you need a 2x above average amplifier (100$ -> 200$). Then you need a pair of 2.8x above average loudspeakers (150$ -> 420 $). And of course you need 4x above average ears... Then you can call yourself audiophile.
A chain can be only as stong as its weakest link.
Each subsequent component in the audio chain should be better that the preceding component, otherwise it would degrade the sound quality.
Human perception is logarithmic, about 3dB change can be perceived by most people, that is about +40%.
If you play back an average (20$) CD, you need a 40% above average CD player (100$ -> 140 $). Then you need a 2x above average amplifier (100$ -> 200$). Then you need a pair of 2.8x above average loudspeakers (150$ -> 420 $). And of course you need 4x above average ears... Then you can call yourself audiophile.
not quite expensive my son
i´m a poor man , i must live with sub 1K components and whatever i diy , that´s my high end
KatieandDad , love the arcams too , my 2 bass amps are old moded arcam delta 290 , powerfull and smooth
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No, they hired an experienced writer of popular fiction to write the advertising copy.bimo said:
Afair, a poor man does not live with a sub 1k component, but sleeps in the box it was sold in.
Last thing I remember before turning senile at the verge of the new millennium, was that 'audiophile' stood for the emphasis on (lasting) sound quality and overall durability. About as confusing as to what defines a poor man.
Who knows, in 25 years from now, retrophiles may be diving dumpsters for Sony HDMI classics.
(with R/C's, instead of mind-controlled operation with help of a surgical interface implant)
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Analog measurements
Well, using the same Bink free audio CD test disk, I was able to measure the analog output distortions. All test tones were 30 seconds of -1dB level, the analog autput was almost exactly 3Vpeak (remarkably constant over the 50Hz-20KHz band).
Results are attached (sony_cd_distortions.png). I have no idea if these are good or bad for a 10quid second hand CD player. I found quite peculiar the THD drop at 6300Hz and the corresponding rise in THD+N at the same frequency.
One to another, this player has a THD+N of better than 0.1% and a THD of better than 0.01%. Obviously, the noise dominates the distortions at (almost) all frequencies.
I was though completely unable to hear any noise in the speakers. Measuring bandwidth was 100KHz, so I took a look at the output spectra at 1KHz (attached) in the 50Hz-25KHz band. Nothing really special, the 2nd and 4rd harmonic are dominant, some residues of the rest (50_25000_sony_spectrum.jpg).
However, the 50Hz-100KHz spectrum reveals the source of the noise: two very distinct out of band spectral components, at 43.125KHz and 45.125KHz (50_100000_sony_spectrum_43k.jpg and 50_100000_sony_spectrum_45k.jpg) Being out of band at 1KHz, they don't count as THD, but count as noise.
I tried another audio CD disk (a Sony) and got exactly the same behavior (and amplitudes) at 1KHz, so definitely these components are generated in the Sony player. I took a look at other test frequencies and concluded that these components are always at the 44.1KHz +/- F (F is the test frequency). These components do not seem to create any major intermodulation products in the audio band, so I don't think they have any audible impact. These spectral lines also explain the sudden drop in THD+N, correlated with an increase in THD: when they fall in band, they are added to the THD and subtracted from the THD+N balances.
So: is this cheap Sony player good or bad compared to a 20k audiophile unit?
Well, using the same Bink free audio CD test disk, I was able to measure the analog output distortions. All test tones were 30 seconds of -1dB level, the analog autput was almost exactly 3Vpeak (remarkably constant over the 50Hz-20KHz band).
Results are attached (sony_cd_distortions.png). I have no idea if these are good or bad for a 10
One to another, this player has a THD+N of better than 0.1% and a THD of better than 0.01%. Obviously, the noise dominates the distortions at (almost) all frequencies.
I was though completely unable to hear any noise in the speakers. Measuring bandwidth was 100KHz, so I took a look at the output spectra at 1KHz (attached) in the 50Hz-25KHz band. Nothing really special, the 2nd and 4rd harmonic are dominant, some residues of the rest (50_25000_sony_spectrum.jpg).
However, the 50Hz-100KHz spectrum reveals the source of the noise: two very distinct out of band spectral components, at 43.125KHz and 45.125KHz (50_100000_sony_spectrum_43k.jpg and 50_100000_sony_spectrum_45k.jpg) Being out of band at 1KHz, they don't count as THD, but count as noise.
I tried another audio CD disk (a Sony) and got exactly the same behavior (and amplitudes) at 1KHz, so definitely these components are generated in the Sony player. I took a look at other test frequencies and concluded that these components are always at the 44.1KHz +/- F (F is the test frequency). These components do not seem to create any major intermodulation products in the audio band, so I don't think they have any audible impact. These spectral lines also explain the sudden drop in THD+N, correlated with an increase in THD: when they fall in band, they are added to the THD and subtracted from the THD+N balances.
So: is this cheap Sony player good or bad compared to a 20k audiophile unit?
Attachments
Those two extra components will be at 43.1kHz and 45.1kHz. They are the first two images of the 1kHz signal. They should not really count as noise. A perfect reconstruction filter would have removed them.
The peculiar behaviour at 6300Hz is probably an artifact of the FFT. 6300Hz is exactly 1/7th of the sampling rate.
The peculiar behaviour at 6300Hz is probably an artifact of the FFT. 6300Hz is exactly 1/7th of the sampling rate.
They are not really noise, but are counted as noise by the analyzer, as long as they are out of band.
No FFT artifact, simply 6300Hz generates in band components.
44.1KHz-6.3KHz=37.8KHz which is exactly the 6th harmonic of the 6.3KHz test signal. Being in band, when calculating the total harmonic distortions, the 6th harmonic adds to the THD, but is subtracted from the noise. Therefore, THD+N goes down and THD goes up. The same with 44.1KHz+6.3KHz=50.4KHz, that is the 6.3KHz 8th harmonic.
Haven't checked the inside D/A chip and the reconstruction filter specifics.
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