I haven't seen that they do use isolators for USB high speed. For the simple reason there are no off-the-shelf solutions I'm aware of. USB full speed sure, isolators are plentiful and cheap - but the present market rather looks down on the 96kHz limitation.
Even doing it like that it wont be possible because different technology needs different output stage.
There are many different DAC technologies. 12bit ladder DAC has lower resolution than 16bit NOSDAC. Having squeezed some performance out of some chips, I feel that 16bit is a bottleneck unless you oversample the data, which create different audible issues.
Until now, I found no definitive best. Each has their own strength in sound. I think it would be nice if I can hear the best OSDAC versus the best NOSDAC (such as the DAC-END from Andrea with best tube output circuitry) to see what "balance" each can provide.
Re academic spec: It is well known what dynamic range is possible with certain music and speaker and what multi-bit digital can offer.
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Short article here based on a chat with Bruno P about the Mola-Mola DAC : Bruno Putzeys Talks DACs | AudioStream
Sorry, wasn't talking about usb bus isolation but just the almost compulsory i2s isolation+reclocking. It is arguable whether this isolation leads to any noise reduction.
Ah I haven't noticed DACs with I2S isolation, perhaps I'm not looking in the right places. I do spend plenty of time on 6moons ogling at the audio pr0n there 🙂
Looks like Bruno Putzey of Hypex Class D amp fame has gone to designing a discrete Multibit dac (called the Mola Mola) that uses 32 x 1 Bit dacs per channel, that is capable of doing dsd as well as Redbook.
Production board
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LNvVXCqEtEU/hqdefault.jpg
I think this was the prototype
http://puremusicgroup.com/cart/images/uploads/Moladac_proto-web.jpg
PS: Beat me to it Abraxalito
Cheers George
Production board
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LNvVXCqEtEU/hqdefault.jpg
I think this was the prototype
http://puremusicgroup.com/cart/images/uploads/Moladac_proto-web.jpg
PS: Beat me to it Abraxalito
Cheers George
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A-ha! This is exactly what I predicted was happening in Joe Rasmussen's post DAC filter as in my first post on that thread (now temporarily closed).
In what sense is it 'multibit' ? Because of a multitude of 1bit DACs on the output? He's using PWM and a modulator so I really think its disqualified as a multibit. I understand Bruno's not a fan of multibit anyway, and especially not NOS.
I did an experiment using Dragon Fly 1.0 USB sound cards that runs from the USB power. This AudioQuest USB thingy as a 14 page manual and uses an ESS chip so it has to be good, yes?
Before cracking it open I listened to it and the noise from my mouse and disk activity was still the same as with the internal sound card.
I cut the power track on the PCB and ran it from batteries with a shunt regulator. The noise moving my mouse and the drive activity remained unchanged.
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ES9018...
ESS SABRE 32 ( Buffalo III Se ) with TRIAD HS-56V audio output transformers...the best DAC I've ever heard. Take a look in my implementation
Sheherazade dsd-pcm Sabre32 DAC....
ESS SABRE 32 ( Buffalo III Se ) with TRIAD HS-56V audio output transformers...the best DAC I've ever heard. Take a look in my implementation
Sheherazade dsd-pcm Sabre32 DAC....
These isolators are for voltage, most are not laid out for EMC (noise) suppression that I have seen.
So Marce, what is the hype about having a stand alone DAC with frighting specifications and as soon as you hook it to the preprocessor part (PC), the insane specifications are of little significance. Rubbish in rubbish out, there is no getting away from the real world.
Anseho, your implementation looks very nice but without lying too much what is the application like. I design and build amplifiers and I make amplifiers that you would not know whether they are turned on or off they are so quiet. Then you hook it up with equipment with an interior clock or switch-mode supply and the story changes dramatically.
Are we not experiencing the same with DACs, they sound much the same but the peripheral equipment hanging around them such as the power supply internet radio receiver, PC, is what give most of the characteristics that makes them "good" or the "best in the world"..
Anseho, your implementation looks very nice but without lying too much what is the application like. I design and build amplifiers and I make amplifiers that you would not know whether they are turned on or off they are so quiet. Then you hook it up with equipment with an interior clock or switch-mode supply and the story changes dramatically.
Are we not experiencing the same with DACs, they sound much the same but the peripheral equipment hanging around them such as the power supply internet radio receiver, PC, is what give most of the characteristics that makes them "good" or the "best in the world"..
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Is Mola Mola not a South-Asia brand using Hypex OEM Ncore module with its own powersupply (Not smps à la Hypex if I remember ?) ?
B. Putzey used AK chips on his DSP module.
Maybe one day he will jump from class D to numeric amp DDX ? But as he did walk that way (analog amps) with hypex amps I assume the OEM dac chips were just for him a simple commodoty VS the importance on how to treat the post analogic signal and its efficienty (his amps !) ????
A little like the OP would like to say with the core chip of the PC VS a specialised chip (dac chip) to convert binary inputs in dedicated voltage or current (regarding the tech of the dac chip and what is embeded in it with extra : oap or not, I/V resistor or not, etc ?) : As already said briefly : at the end we need to be in the analog domain and it's not too much the purpose of a PERSONAL computer to make a sota output with it, it has just to show analog for eyes, for ears : versatility of outputs but not sota ! (at least in the domain we love it all here !)
I can't hear the harchness with a 16 bits dac chip (PCM) NOS or not if the layout around is of a good quality and tailored to the hifi system around, nore I can hear a lack of resolution with the most subtle instruments on the: voice, cello, grand piano, violin, harmonica, tabla, trumpett, triangle, cymbals, bass, andine flute or bamboo flute, oud,... with this same 16 bits.
I heard many different pcm, sigma delta and the basic ESS dac chips ! The winner is the simple TDA1541 : certainly because it was one of the chip wich was the most experienced about its surounding layout : pcb, importance of the ground, parts, of course power supplies, clocking, pre-treatment of the I2Ss signals, analog treatment, eventual post filtering... and also with a world wide sharing of those expériences on forums and reviews !
Same with PCM63... and now little by little with ESS chips with no conventional design (external I/V...).
Many say that a PCM1704 (24 bits) has more harchness than a PCM63 or AD1862 (20 bits) : internal design or layout ? Hard to say but even two close dac chips sound different . (PCM63 vs AD 1862 e.g.).... My simple idea is both are important and diyers or sota designers just can tailor around the manufactured chip (but if they are able to be chips designer itself with a production behind ... btw do you remember guys this famous japoneese dac chips we are all waiting for for years 😉 !
I just don't understand why a pc could do the same job as its layout and internal architecture and surrounding is not developed to do the same (are there pipes and queues jobs and sub process and memory in a dac chip as there are in a pc chip from Intel or AMD ???? It's a missunderstanding of the task to do with a dac than wanting a pc does the same job !
A pc is good to apply pre-treatment, Stream it but you will need always an external dac or a specializedi internal dac to do the job as long as a pc is made to treat multiple asynchrone tasks and calculs. It's like if we compare a thin continuous laser to make a hole (sort of analog : it's continuous) with a tank to make the same hole ! Just a two cents picture !
But we can imagine one day some manufacturer as Asus or Dell have the savoir-faire with dedicated ingeneers to do sota soundcards : but the markett is not there. Mass markett is about mp3 and embeded multi devices where the pc is the data loader (once again : asynchronous) of those multi stuffs !
It could be interressant to benchmark a B. Putzey DAC with the best high resolution files avaliable and a 16 to 24 bits dac chip with a proved layout around it and a sota reccording of a live event for red books as Chesky reccords can make it !
And I'm defintly not sure than Andrea's tubes stages with ESS9018 are the best analog outputs stages of the world ! But it could be also interressant to benchmark it with brands of the above lists but in the midlle segment! if SQ is not seen with the price ratio.
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Nope. NL company which Bruno is a co-founder of. He has fingers in several pies as far as I can tell, which is probably exactly how he wants it. Where it is built I cannot tell, but certainly designed in Europe.
Based on Bruno's past works I would expect the DAC to be state of the art. Whether that makes it sound pleasing to the ear of the subjectivists remains to be seen. And of course for those who lust for the 100k DCS stack its just waaaaaay too cheap 🙂
Yes this man is defintly a good stuffs maker 🙂 to say it simple , I'd love to listen to this dac !
Happy guy, fingers in different pies when you like cake is a good destiny !
Yes at the end it's the markett who choose : look at they miss the market vs Minidsp (for DSP stuffs I mean)!
Happy guy, fingers in different pies when you like cake is a good destiny !
Yes at the end it's the markett who choose : look at they miss the market vs Minidsp (for DSP stuffs I mean)!
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Look at this one could be easily convert in a switchable sound-card for PC 😉 ! But hey, like a Porsch : half of the pleasure is in the eyes of the owner ! If not, a compact Porsch as known as VW Beetle is enough to go to the concert !
MSB trys to do the DAC which can be transformed into a PC , but if it has pro sound interface it has not a rj45 plug which can receive the perfect bit Stream of a router, laptop, wifi card ???? or is it the same than pro I2S (looks like a sort of rj45 plug ?!) ? : at least I2S is not TCP/IP !
Call me the manager 😀 (or the chief project😛).
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ES9022/3, no, just a low end cost saving delta sigma chip with horrible spec
and your test is far from complete to draw a sensible conclusion
without even hooking up a scope to trace where the noise starts