This weekend is placement weekend. I got Paul McGowan's speaker placement book and test tracks. Will spend a day walking thru it and see where they end up. I think where they are is the starting point before I diverted onto a distorty F4.
No idea how Curt tune's them so any reading material/links would be greatly appreciated.
My goal this weekend is to get my SO to actually hear a stereo image as she doesn't appear to have had that epiphany in life yet.
No idea how Curt tune's them so any reading material/links would be greatly appreciated.
My goal this weekend is to get my SO to actually hear a stereo image as she doesn't appear to have had that epiphany in life yet.
I just looked on their site and this is what I found. It looks like the off axis response is pretty darned good. I suppose, listen to the highs and alter it to taste.
http://speakerdesignworks.com/Halcyon_5.html
That would be cool if you can get your SO to hear imaging etc.
Speaker placement is something I get pretty excited about! Especially with these open-backed designs.
My experience has been to get them off of the wall as far as you can. The crossovers are designed to take into consideration the back wave bouncing off of the back wall. So Jim and Curt usually suggest a range of how far to place them. Getting them off of the wall further, in my experience, sets the center image further back behind the speakers and helps with the sense of space. I have my speakers set to 15 degrees off axis as that is what Jim suggested for the Bordeaux.
I start with an equilateral triangle between the speakers and my ears. Move my seat forward and backwards until I can hear the imaging working well. However, that is really all a taste thing. Even changing placement from time to time can give you a different experience if you want to change things up.
http://speakerdesignworks.com/Halcyon_5.html
That would be cool if you can get your SO to hear imaging etc.
Speaker placement is something I get pretty excited about! Especially with these open-backed designs.
My experience has been to get them off of the wall as far as you can. The crossovers are designed to take into consideration the back wave bouncing off of the back wall. So Jim and Curt usually suggest a range of how far to place them. Getting them off of the wall further, in my experience, sets the center image further back behind the speakers and helps with the sense of space. I have my speakers set to 15 degrees off axis as that is what Jim suggested for the Bordeaux. I start with an equilateral triangle between the speakers and my ears. Move my seat forward and backwards until I can hear the imaging working well. However, that is really all a taste thing. Even changing placement from time to time can give you a different experience if you want to change things up.
In my experience with a single F4 running SE. If your preamp throws an image, you will hear it. My favorite way is an isosceles triangle, with the speakers closer to each other than to me. Aimed directly to the listening seat.
This goes both for the Maggies and the ANs.
The ANs actually image to the outside of the speakers, the Maggies, well, dipole time.. they load the room.
However, with the little AN-K, I also experience a "head on a vice"... not so much with the Maggies.. which surprised me.
The F4 is indeed a chameleon, it has no sound of its own.
This goes both for the Maggies and the ANs.
The ANs actually image to the outside of the speakers, the Maggies, well, dipole time.. they load the room.
However, with the little AN-K, I also experience a "head on a vice"... not so much with the Maggies.. which surprised me.
The F4 is indeed a chameleon, it has no sound of its own.
I'm going to have to think about how to work with the 15deg. I've been itching to walk thru Paul's (of PS Audio fame) setup instructions. Especially as he started up Octave Records and took the time to record demonstration tracks particular to the instructions. Reminds me of the old Stereophile test CDs.
https://www.psaudio.com/products/the-loudspeaker/
https://www.psaudio.com/products/the-loudspeaker/
Running off of this Benchmark DAC3, if it is on the recording, it'll be in the room. I think davebtw can attest to that. Balanced operation takes the F4 to the next level. Just have to dial in the speakers.
Patience, patience... I don't have a balanced source for my phono stage... taking my time... hopefully by June it will all be up and running.
Both my AD/DAC and DAC have balanced I/O but I'm using a SE preamp... that is being addressed....
I have my Halcyons against the wall (well maybe 2" away), as I thought that most of the energy coming out of the A10p tube was effectively attenuated with the foam stuffing. My office is crowded and for now I want to leave them as they are but I might be convinced otherwise.
I am playing the The World's Greatest Audiophile Vocal Recordings from Chesky. I am running 94K 24 bit on my DAC3 with balanced cables to my Benchmark AHB2 amp. They are sounding better than ever tonight. Still breaking in a bit.
I am playing the The World's Greatest Audiophile Vocal Recordings from Chesky. I am running 94K 24 bit on my DAC3 with balanced cables to my Benchmark AHB2 amp. They are sounding better than ever tonight. Still breaking in a bit.
This may be a good read in regards to these open backed designs:
https://techtalk.parts-express.com/...31301-designing-an-open-back-midrange-speaker
Curt chimes in a few times starting at post #12.
https://techtalk.parts-express.com/...31301-designing-an-open-back-midrange-speaker
Curt chimes in a few times starting at post #12.
Here is what Curt Campbell specifically states in his Halcyon Speaker documents on page 3 called Cabinet Construction.
"The Alpair 10P is housed in its separate sub-enclosure. An 8" sonotube wedged inside the rectangular space. There are several sizes of 8" sonotubes so
they can nest inside each other for shipping. Pick the smallest one as the rectangular space is 7.5" x 7.5". The advantage of the sonotube cylinder is to
eliminate standing waves from the sides of the enclosure. The sonotube is lined with a 1" thick piece of foam. The rear of the enclosure, open through the
6" hole has a 5" to 6" plug of foam to attenuate all but the lowest frequencies from exiting the enclosure. The advantage here is little or no acoustic energy
is reflected back onto the alpair cone to smear or muddy the sound. So little escapes from the rear of the enclosure that only an inch or of space is
necessary between the rear of the enclosure and the front wall."
That is why mine are about 2" away from the wall. Are some of you having different results?
"The Alpair 10P is housed in its separate sub-enclosure. An 8" sonotube wedged inside the rectangular space. There are several sizes of 8" sonotubes so
they can nest inside each other for shipping. Pick the smallest one as the rectangular space is 7.5" x 7.5". The advantage of the sonotube cylinder is to
eliminate standing waves from the sides of the enclosure. The sonotube is lined with a 1" thick piece of foam. The rear of the enclosure, open through the
6" hole has a 5" to 6" plug of foam to attenuate all but the lowest frequencies from exiting the enclosure. The advantage here is little or no acoustic energy
is reflected back onto the alpair cone to smear or muddy the sound. So little escapes from the rear of the enclosure that only an inch or of space is
necessary between the rear of the enclosure and the front wall."
That is why mine are about 2" away from the wall. Are some of you having different results?
Oh, btw... really nice speakers.
How loud is this gonna play? I mean, two F4s into efficient speakers... nothing like excess. I love it.
Looking through the thread...
(1) The flat pack is "out of stock".. I suppose I could ask.
(2) How much are you into this build? PM if you don't want your wife to find out.
How loud is this gonna play? I mean, two F4s into efficient speakers... nothing like excess. I love it.
Looking through the thread...
(1) The flat pack is "out of stock".. I suppose I could ask.
(2) How much are you into this build? PM if you don't want your wife to find out.
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I found that the Master Set/Sumiko method for placing speakers worked really well. It does not require room treatment or any sort of symmetrical geometry. You set one speaker up, adjust it until it's close to perfect, and "set" it. Then all the imaging etc comes from adjusting the other speaker to work with it and with the room as-is.
https://www.thesoundapprentice.com/2019/11/sumiko-speaker-placement-guide.html
A guy named Bob Robins does a similar thing.
Here is a video of a guy who used the approach:
I can confirm that tiny movements made a big difference once you get close.
Also, if you can find a recording of castanets clacking front, left, right, back etc., that really helps. I found that on the
There are other setup disks that have similar capability. I liked the castanets because you can really isolate where they are coming from, including behind you, if the setup is right. It should be easy to "see" the castanets on the far left (beyond speaker), left, left-middle, middle, right-middle, right, and far right sides quite distinctly and also "see" them close in and far away (and, if you are lucky back left, back, and back right).
https://www.thesoundapprentice.com/2019/11/sumiko-speaker-placement-guide.html
A guy named Bob Robins does a similar thing.
Here is a video of a guy who used the approach:
I can confirm that tiny movements made a big difference once you get close.
Also, if you can find a recording of castanets clacking front, left, right, back etc., that really helps. I found that on the
IsoTek The Ultimate System Set‐Up Disc
https://isoteksystems.com/products/ultimate-system-set-up-disc/There are other setup disks that have similar capability. I liked the castanets because you can really isolate where they are coming from, including behind you, if the setup is right. It should be easy to "see" the castanets on the far left (beyond speaker), left, left-middle, middle, right-middle, right, and far right sides quite distinctly and also "see" them close in and far away (and, if you are lucky back left, back, and back right).
Sorry about that 6xX7. I still listen to mine ever day. But when I drive them with choral music, especially large choirs in natural acoustic settings, I get a harshness or congestion in the upper mids that isn't there on my headphones or other speakers. I have been listening on multiple amplifiers as well, and it is definitely the A10p or the crossover (which I doubt because I upgraded all components a lot).
In my recording experience I don't think I have ever had a source that causes Intermod distortion quite like a vocal choir. I have found that mics can do it, and so can every other part of the signal chain. I am currently running on my DAC3 and AHB2 amp. The resulting sound is the cleanest I have heard in my system, yet the distortion is still there. I also record my sister's 90 voice choir twice a year with the best gear I can find, and it still happens on the A10p.
You may remember that I posted previously about the MAOP 10 as a possible upgrade. Dave at Planet 10 discouraged me but the Halcyons do so many other things right that I am still looking into it. Of course the hard part will be to find a pair of them.
-david BTW
In my recording experience I don't think I have ever had a source that causes Intermod distortion quite like a vocal choir. I have found that mics can do it, and so can every other part of the signal chain. I am currently running on my DAC3 and AHB2 amp. The resulting sound is the cleanest I have heard in my system, yet the distortion is still there. I also record my sister's 90 voice choir twice a year with the best gear I can find, and it still happens on the A10p.
You may remember that I posted previously about the MAOP 10 as a possible upgrade. Dave at Planet 10 discouraged me but the Halcyons do so many other things right that I am still looking into it. Of course the hard part will be to find a pair of them.
-david BTW
david BTW,
I'm looking at revisiting the design this summer. With the original SB Acoustic woofers out of production and a hankering to get back into speaker building, planning on investing in test gear and starting from concept. Thinking MA CHP-90 for the FR and the Satori MW19P 7.5" for the woofers. Going to play around with various x-over topologies (incl. active) to see if anything really stands out.
I dig the Halcyons and the idea behind them but think it is time to perform some of my own engineering trades to see if I can find what I'm listening for.
I'm looking at revisiting the design this summer. With the original SB Acoustic woofers out of production and a hankering to get back into speaker building, planning on investing in test gear and starting from concept. Thinking MA CHP-90 for the FR and the Satori MW19P 7.5" for the woofers. Going to play around with various x-over topologies (incl. active) to see if anything really stands out.
I dig the Halcyons and the idea behind them but think it is time to perform some of my own engineering trades to see if I can find what I'm listening for.