@THD+N
I’m 15 pages into the AK thread regarding the PRV 18x10 and d2200ph.
It’s sort of meandering all over the place based on various people using them in different situations.
You posted two crossover schematics at the beginning of the thread…4 and 8 Ohm versions…for your PRV modified LaScala build.
There’s much talk of the Universal crossover being used in the thread.
Are the schematics you posted a variant of the Universal?
Are people building there own Universal crossovers and then adjusting or modifying them?…or are they ALK and Crites Universals that are being used?
It seems like there are also a lot of people working with whatever original crossover they have and modifying them to suit.
I’ve come across both AA and HIE original crossovers for sale. Whether they would be a worthy investment as a basis for
modifying to suit my project is beyond my current understanding.
If people are working with DIY Universal crossovers I’d be interested in knowing what schematic to use in building one and where the most cost effective source for parts would be to build it…especially the autoformer.
I’m 15 pages into the AK thread regarding the PRV 18x10 and d2200ph.
It’s sort of meandering all over the place based on various people using them in different situations.
You posted two crossover schematics at the beginning of the thread…4 and 8 Ohm versions…for your PRV modified LaScala build.
There’s much talk of the Universal crossover being used in the thread.
Are the schematics you posted a variant of the Universal?
Are people building there own Universal crossovers and then adjusting or modifying them?…or are they ALK and Crites Universals that are being used?
It seems like there are also a lot of people working with whatever original crossover they have and modifying them to suit.
I’ve come across both AA and HIE original crossovers for sale. Whether they would be a worthy investment as a basis for
modifying to suit my project is beyond my current understanding.
If people are working with DIY Universal crossovers I’d be interested in knowing what schematic to use in building one and where the most cost effective source for parts would be to build it…especially the autoformer.
I have had a pair of LaScalas for almost 40 years but unfortunately they were in a storage unit for the last 20. I recently restored my barn and now finally have a room for them again.
They are black commercial speakers from the early '70s and came with AA crossovers. Over the last couple of months I have made quite a few changes and upgrades.
Shortly after I got them out of storage one of the original oil filled capacitors failed so the decision to replace the crossovers was effectively made for me, lol. I went with Universal crossovers from Crites.
I installed braces in the bass bins and used DynaMat on the squawker horn. I replaced the K-55 drivers with Crites A-55G/2 drivers. For the tweeters I'm using B&C DE120 drivers in Celestion's H1-9040P horns. I built frames for them and have them time-aligned with the squawkers. I also used DynaMat on the tweeter horns.
I have a pair of Fostex T90As that I had tried using as super-tweeters to add some sparkle to cymbals and such. I'm using 0.68 mfd ClarityCap CSA caps and fiddled around with a bit of resistance and was able to get the level where I wanted but I was never entirely happy with the results so that's when I decided to replace the tweeters. I'm currently using the Fostex tweeters as out-of-phase ambience tweeters, facing kind of back and out and up.
I decided that the way to really get the bass bins level matched with the rest of the system was to bi-amp. I have been bi-wired for ever, and split the Crites crossover as soon as I got it, so passive bi-amping couldn't have been easier. I'm not sure why it took me so long to get around to it! I've been using BRZHIFI Audio A80 300B monoblocks and the smallish OTs seem to like running this way.
My current project is to replace the woofers, which is probably where I should have started. I have finished one speaker so far. The old driver has a much bigger and heavier magnet assembly, presumably the Crites CW1526 woofers are using more modern materials. When I pulled the first woofer I found that it makes a strange huffing noise when shaken. That could explain why I was dissatisfied with the system, lol. It could sound fabulous at lower levels, and sounds much louder than it is if you know what I mean, but it would go from just right to too loud and blaring with just one notch too much volume.
All of these changes have fundamentally had the same effect: lower distortion and resonance. The speakers still sound like themselves, only better. The extra control that I've gotten from the adjustability that I now have has allowed me to really get the drivers in balance.
If anyone cares, my current system is a Maplenoll air-bearing turntable with a Grado Statement cartridge, a PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC and a CJ Evolution 20 preamp. Amps are the BRZHIFI Audio A80 300B monoblocks for the top end and a ParaSound New Classic 275 for the bass bins. I have a pair of Martin Logan Dynamo 800 subwoofers.
Pete
They are black commercial speakers from the early '70s and came with AA crossovers. Over the last couple of months I have made quite a few changes and upgrades.
Shortly after I got them out of storage one of the original oil filled capacitors failed so the decision to replace the crossovers was effectively made for me, lol. I went with Universal crossovers from Crites.
I installed braces in the bass bins and used DynaMat on the squawker horn. I replaced the K-55 drivers with Crites A-55G/2 drivers. For the tweeters I'm using B&C DE120 drivers in Celestion's H1-9040P horns. I built frames for them and have them time-aligned with the squawkers. I also used DynaMat on the tweeter horns.
I have a pair of Fostex T90As that I had tried using as super-tweeters to add some sparkle to cymbals and such. I'm using 0.68 mfd ClarityCap CSA caps and fiddled around with a bit of resistance and was able to get the level where I wanted but I was never entirely happy with the results so that's when I decided to replace the tweeters. I'm currently using the Fostex tweeters as out-of-phase ambience tweeters, facing kind of back and out and up.
I decided that the way to really get the bass bins level matched with the rest of the system was to bi-amp. I have been bi-wired for ever, and split the Crites crossover as soon as I got it, so passive bi-amping couldn't have been easier. I'm not sure why it took me so long to get around to it! I've been using BRZHIFI Audio A80 300B monoblocks and the smallish OTs seem to like running this way.
My current project is to replace the woofers, which is probably where I should have started. I have finished one speaker so far. The old driver has a much bigger and heavier magnet assembly, presumably the Crites CW1526 woofers are using more modern materials. When I pulled the first woofer I found that it makes a strange huffing noise when shaken. That could explain why I was dissatisfied with the system, lol. It could sound fabulous at lower levels, and sounds much louder than it is if you know what I mean, but it would go from just right to too loud and blaring with just one notch too much volume.
All of these changes have fundamentally had the same effect: lower distortion and resonance. The speakers still sound like themselves, only better. The extra control that I've gotten from the adjustability that I now have has allowed me to really get the drivers in balance.
If anyone cares, my current system is a Maplenoll air-bearing turntable with a Grado Statement cartridge, a PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC and a CJ Evolution 20 preamp. Amps are the BRZHIFI Audio A80 300B monoblocks for the top end and a ParaSound New Classic 275 for the bass bins. I have a pair of Martin Logan Dynamo 800 subwoofers.
Pete
re-using Klipsch Heritage networks makes sense if the price is fair compared to all new components - I've charge coupled one ("E") with old but still good Russian metalized paper in oil caps to compare on a K-horn.. There is a supply house with great prices on regular motor run caps.
Caps at sensible prices
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Motor-Run-Capacitors-19702000
Caps at sensible prices
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Motor-Run-Capacitors-19702000
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The crossover I am currently using is a modified AA. The patriarch of all these crossover mods is the ALK Universal crossover network. My 4 & 8 ohm crossover versions are derivations of the Universal.
Heritage Type A, AA, E, E2, etc pop-up on eBay often and if the price is fair, you can buy them for slightly more than a pair of (just) autoformers from Crites. When you do this, you get the woofer choke, barrier strip, wood base, etc. A good bargain again, if the price is right.
You can also use an L-Pad on the midrange and use the series notch filter to tame the resonance peak that the autoformer naturally suppresses.
If you can get the AA or HIE for a good market price, definitely snag them.
Most everything can be sourced from Parts Express except the autoformer. I believe Crites is the only source for those, unless you find a pair on eBay separately from complete Heritage crossovers.
What LF horns did you find? If you are going to build FH-1's or LaScala clones think about porting those to extend the bass down to around 30Hz even though you have the LF horns. You never know when you might need the FH-1 or LaScala clones to carry all the weight down the road without the LF horns being used.
Why such a big horn just for the tweeter? You may get better results/coverage from a smaller horn.
@THD+N Thanks for that explanation!
I’m still considering a hybrid active/passive system. I have some Hypex amps that would work well with the low frequency horns.
However, if I ever want to try driving the LaScala Mid and high frequency with the same amp…or the whole speaker…I’ll need a passive solution to work with.
I’m trying to determine where the best VALUE is….not just price, but also quality.
Crites sells the AA for $400 and Universal for $500. Some people seem to like these, others don’t.
ALK offers a variety of other custom slope crossovers that just go up from there…$2500!
Average price I’ve seen for a used original Klipsch crossover so far has been about $250 plus tax, shipping etc…on par with what you said.
I’ve no idea what the cost would be to build something like a Universal from scratch. I’m sure it largely depends on what components you use.
The 3636 autoformers (T2A substitute) from Crites are $120 a pair. Ao as you said the used AA and HIE I’ve seen both have two pairs in circuit and are selling fir slightly more.
It seems like one should have a definite idea of the direction they are going with their build before hand when going passive.
Otherwise, one should be prepared to spend a lot of time and money exploring options. Oh, and the learning curve is feeling kind of steep with these passive crossovers.
I’m considering what to do if I don’t want to end up with a fully digital solution.
I feel I need the forgiveness of adjustability. I can use a MiniDSP I have for tests, but I was never satisfied with its sound quality.
I have several if the bi-amp crossover kits they sell in the DIYAudio store that I am thinking about trying to use.
I’m still considering a hybrid active/passive system. I have some Hypex amps that would work well with the low frequency horns.
However, if I ever want to try driving the LaScala Mid and high frequency with the same amp…or the whole speaker…I’ll need a passive solution to work with.
I’m trying to determine where the best VALUE is….not just price, but also quality.
Crites sells the AA for $400 and Universal for $500. Some people seem to like these, others don’t.
ALK offers a variety of other custom slope crossovers that just go up from there…$2500!
Average price I’ve seen for a used original Klipsch crossover so far has been about $250 plus tax, shipping etc…on par with what you said.
I’ve no idea what the cost would be to build something like a Universal from scratch. I’m sure it largely depends on what components you use.
The 3636 autoformers (T2A substitute) from Crites are $120 a pair. Ao as you said the used AA and HIE I’ve seen both have two pairs in circuit and are selling fir slightly more.
It seems like one should have a definite idea of the direction they are going with their build before hand when going passive.
Otherwise, one should be prepared to spend a lot of time and money exploring options. Oh, and the learning curve is feeling kind of steep with these passive crossovers.
I’m considering what to do if I don’t want to end up with a fully digital solution.
I feel I need the forgiveness of adjustability. I can use a MiniDSP I have for tests, but I was never satisfied with its sound quality.
I have several if the bi-amp crossover kits they sell in the DIYAudio store that I am thinking about trying to use.
LaScala…the industrial version with K43 drivers. They are stand alone from the Klipsch factory with no mid or high frequency sections.
I began referring to them as low frequency horns because there were comments about how they’re not “bass bins”…lol 🤷♂️
The doghouses may or may not benefit from interior damping. I'm of the mind that it doesn't detract and since I was building my LS clones from scratch, I might as well add it. I lined the insides with ice and water shield, hich is indistinguishable from the automotive bituminous damping and quite a bit cheaper. I also lined it with 1.5" pyramid acoustic foam. Does it make a difference? Since I didn't do any before measurements, I can't really say.
We all (here on the forum) can certainly understand this point of view. With all the documentation available, it is much less expensive to build an AA or Universal if you have the aptitude. The most expensive component is the pair of autoformers if you choose those over an L-Pad solution to attenuate the midrange. The caps and inductors for a pair of universals is fairly inexpensive as long as you don't go bonkers and use boutique caps/inductors.
Typically, lining the interior walls of a loudspeaker tames midrange resonances, not so much bass resonances. Lining a wall and stuffing an enclosure are not the same. These two approaches are done for different reasons.
Stuffing a sealed enclosure (correctly) can increase the apparent volume of said enclosure (Adiabatic Process) by 15~20%.
Lining the wall(s) of an enclosure will help tame mid-bass & midrange resonances inside the enclosure (sealed or bass reflex).
Stuffing a sealed enclosure (correctly) can increase the apparent volume of said enclosure (Adiabatic Process) by 15~20%.
Lining the wall(s) of an enclosure will help tame mid-bass & midrange resonances inside the enclosure (sealed or bass reflex).
Although subtle, I think lining the dog house helps the completed (ported) loudspeaker sound more balanced.
I have 3" fiberglass lining in my dog house and some in the upper midrange horn area. Measurements confirm taming of some peaks here and there with no loss of sensitivity.
I have 3" fiberglass lining in my dog house and some in the upper midrange horn area. Measurements confirm taming of some peaks here and there with no loss of sensitivity.
Don't do it as a first step. Take care of other, more important things, first, one step at a time and NEVER change more than one thing at a time. Otherwise you will never learn which thing you improved or made worse in the evolutionary process.
Hint, port the LF horns and they will be bass bins. Porting is not just for low(er) bass, but to enhance the entire range from 30Hz~400Hz.
Best (realistic) bass you will ever hear without a subwoofer.
I built my LaScala with a 15” passive radiator instead of a port, because I had it on hand. This is what the frequency response looks like, using a Dayton audio DSP 408 active crossover and multiple amps:
This is what it looked like before parametric eq was applied to get the response +/- 3dB:
You can also do time alignment with dsp, which you can’t do with a passive. There’s a 3 foot difference between the woofer and tweeter drivers a s that distance can make a huge difference in how the speaker images.
This is time aligned:
This is before:
I can’t say that the before was terrible, but the time aligned sound and imaging raised the hair on the back of my neck.
Multi amping with an active EQ is the best way to go with a LaScala, as you can use Room EQ Wizard to generate an eq profile to tame the nodes in horn response, which can varying wildly with a passive crossover. A Dayton Audio dsp 408 and a calibrated mic will set you back about $250. Exceptional quality class D amps can be found for $80-$150 so for $500, you can triamp your speakers and tune their response better than you imagined possible.
Whether you do dsp or not, definitely vent your enclosure. Doing both, though takes a LaScala from a great speaker with qualifications, to a truly, unqualified incredible listening experience.
This is what it looked like before parametric eq was applied to get the response +/- 3dB:
You can also do time alignment with dsp, which you can’t do with a passive. There’s a 3 foot difference between the woofer and tweeter drivers a s that distance can make a huge difference in how the speaker images.
This is time aligned:
This is before:
I can’t say that the before was terrible, but the time aligned sound and imaging raised the hair on the back of my neck.
Multi amping with an active EQ is the best way to go with a LaScala, as you can use Room EQ Wizard to generate an eq profile to tame the nodes in horn response, which can varying wildly with a passive crossover. A Dayton Audio dsp 408 and a calibrated mic will set you back about $250. Exceptional quality class D amps can be found for $80-$150 so for $500, you can triamp your speakers and tune their response better than you imagined possible.
Whether you do dsp or not, definitely vent your enclosure. Doing both, though takes a LaScala from a great speaker with qualifications, to a truly, unqualified incredible listening experience.
The ported modification has been on my radar and reading list for a while…even before I pulled the trigger on buying these.
All this additional information is great…thanks for posting the Hornresp model data freddi!
I am on the fence a bit simply because I am wondering what is a more efficient use of time and resources right now…the ported modification or building a tapped horn.
Neither would be a major financial investment.
If I pursue the ported mod I was thinking I would flip the LaScala upside down, remove the doghouse cover and build a mid/high frequency top with a proper additional volume that would seal against the dog house opening…completely reversible if desired.
The tapped horns would have the added benefit of being usable with any system. I have some 10” drivers on hand that I believe would work well in them.
Eventually I hope to try both.
All this additional information is great…thanks for posting the Hornresp model data freddi!
I am on the fence a bit simply because I am wondering what is a more efficient use of time and resources right now…the ported modification or building a tapped horn.
Neither would be a major financial investment.
If I pursue the ported mod I was thinking I would flip the LaScala upside down, remove the doghouse cover and build a mid/high frequency top with a proper additional volume that would seal against the dog house opening…completely reversible if desired.
The tapped horns would have the added benefit of being usable with any system. I have some 10” drivers on hand that I believe would work well in them.
Eventually I hope to try both.