Keep it at 84 mm to keep some wiggle room, making the array part 2100 mm tall. Personally I used a 85.5 mm c-t-c distance because of the way I wanted to create the back-chambers.
I agree with @nc535 keep it close to the ground and leave the space up top. Including my feet construction the total height of my array is about 2270 mm. Leaving me about a 75 cm gap to my ceiling from the top driver. That's making the array about 71% of my total floor to ceiling height. The ceiling used to be 20 cm lower, but due to a renovation we restored the original 3m height ceiling.
Thinking about the cabinets, i (currently!) imagine using 19mm black MDF, I am familiar with it as I used it for my 3 ways and when oiled it goes dark black, i would then put a black sock over the whole assembly as a grille. spacing of the sock and details to follow but a foam strip each side of the drivers like i saw previously probably being the answer to ensure cone clearance.
I knocked up a cabinet section to visualise how deep in the corners of the room it will go, this is 163mm baffle to back, and feels really small. It is 1 litre per chamber if i use 12mm horizontal dividers so, having visualised that, it will look fine also if i increase the front to back and side to side by 25% each, giving 1.65ltr. Is that going to be sufficient? To assemble, i can cut the vertical strips at the correct angles to fit, lay them out open and rout for the 12mm dividers and then wrap/glue the cabinet onto the dividers, keeping the baffle strip until last.
Then i can round the outside corners to a reasonable degree which will make it a somewhat non specific shape rounded hexagon section which should look OK however it is aimed.
Before all that i imagine i should start with the optimum baffle dimensions, if keeping it to a particular dimension is desirable then i can vary the back shape to a suitable volume.
Assuming that may be an outline of the construction then i need to conclude about EQ and amplification.....
I knocked up a cabinet section to visualise how deep in the corners of the room it will go, this is 163mm baffle to back, and feels really small. It is 1 litre per chamber if i use 12mm horizontal dividers so, having visualised that, it will look fine also if i increase the front to back and side to side by 25% each, giving 1.65ltr. Is that going to be sufficient? To assemble, i can cut the vertical strips at the correct angles to fit, lay them out open and rout for the 12mm dividers and then wrap/glue the cabinet onto the dividers, keeping the baffle strip until last.
Then i can round the outside corners to a reasonable degree which will make it a somewhat non specific shape rounded hexagon section which should look OK however it is aimed.
Before all that i imagine i should start with the optimum baffle dimensions, if keeping it to a particular dimension is desirable then i can vary the back shape to a suitable volume.
Assuming that may be an outline of the construction then i need to conclude about EQ and amplification.....
Attachments
The TC9 is no longer the budget darling driver it once was at under $10 each…..here in the US it’s over double that even in quantity. It rose to popularity based on price and simplicity.……an array like Wesayso‘s without a crossover could be built for less than $500 per pair…….the TG9 was the better driver on paper and the driver Roger Russell used in his premier design……but it cost more so it was set aside by a lot of folks in favor of the cheaper TC9.
Tympany/Peerless are no longer looking to distribute outside of OEM solutions…..you CAN get their drivers in high quantity, but otherwise, availability has been reduced to existing stocking quantities. If you can find the TG9, it’s now much cheaper than the TC and it is a better sounding driver and performs better on paper.
I have one of each….i purchased them years ago along with quite a few other 3-4” FR drivers in singles to simply install each in an enclosure and just listen…….i wanted to see/hear for myself what all the hype was about. Sadly, for the most part it was all a let down as none of these little cheap wonders did anything remarkable or memorable………they weren’t bad.….and they weren’t great…..they just were……..like a granola bar……..tastes better than Kale but pales compared to Lobster…..it just is……fairly inexpensive sustenance……….buy a few boxes and your good for a while.
This all being said, if you do continue down this road…..this is a much better driver
https://www.parts-express.com/FaitalPRO-3FE25-3-Professional-Woofer-8-Ohm-294-1104?quantity=1
It wasn’t around when this whole craze started and when it did arrive…..the $25 price tag was more than twice that of the TC/TG so it wasn’t considered…..now that they’re nearly the same $$$, I couldnt see any use case for the TC/TG option. The 3FE is also available in 16 ohms which would make wiring a much simpler task.
But at the end of the day……$1k US for drivers for such a project?…….I can’t see the value potential there anymore…..not when it was half that a few years ago…….
If you ultimately decide to continue, use the Faital 3FE…..they’re primarily a pro audio company and the driver was designed for array use…….the rising response is much more easily responsive to parametric EQ where it counts.
Tympany/Peerless are no longer looking to distribute outside of OEM solutions…..you CAN get their drivers in high quantity, but otherwise, availability has been reduced to existing stocking quantities. If you can find the TG9, it’s now much cheaper than the TC and it is a better sounding driver and performs better on paper.
I have one of each….i purchased them years ago along with quite a few other 3-4” FR drivers in singles to simply install each in an enclosure and just listen…….i wanted to see/hear for myself what all the hype was about. Sadly, for the most part it was all a let down as none of these little cheap wonders did anything remarkable or memorable………they weren’t bad.….and they weren’t great…..they just were……..like a granola bar……..tastes better than Kale but pales compared to Lobster…..it just is……fairly inexpensive sustenance……….buy a few boxes and your good for a while.
This all being said, if you do continue down this road…..this is a much better driver
https://www.parts-express.com/FaitalPRO-3FE25-3-Professional-Woofer-8-Ohm-294-1104?quantity=1
It wasn’t around when this whole craze started and when it did arrive…..the $25 price tag was more than twice that of the TC/TG so it wasn’t considered…..now that they’re nearly the same $$$, I couldnt see any use case for the TC/TG option. The 3FE is also available in 16 ohms which would make wiring a much simpler task.
But at the end of the day……$1k US for drivers for such a project?…….I can’t see the value potential there anymore…..not when it was half that a few years ago…….
If you ultimately decide to continue, use the Faital 3FE…..they’re primarily a pro audio company and the driver was designed for array use…….the rising response is much more easily responsive to parametric EQ where it counts.
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I have considered the SBA SB10PGC21-4 as a good driver for LA. It is very well behaved, a rise after 8kHz battling combing, and not too pricey.
It has a small distortion spike at 4kHz, but I figured if 25 were used by tower, that distortion peak might disappear. Plus, they can handle some EQing without a sweat.
$16 with the 10% discount.
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-3-fullrange/sb-acoustics-sb10pgc21-4-3-full-range/
It has a small distortion spike at 4kHz, but I figured if 25 were used by tower, that distortion peak might disappear. Plus, they can handle some EQing without a sweat.
$16 with the 10% discount.
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-3-fullrange/sb-acoustics-sb10pgc21-4-3-full-range/
Can you shop here?
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/peerless-by-tymphany/TC9FD18-08/6211125?s=N4IgTCBcDaIC4GMCcACAZgEwIwA4C0ADDiALoC+QA
Here's all the info you need on the TC9 to judge it: https://hificompass.com/en/speakers/measurements/peerless/peerless-tc9fd18-08
For best sound it just needs a little EQ shaping as it has a rising response. Too bad some people are allergic to that kind of tweaking
.
The rising response actually helps make it an excellent driver for this task. Put it behind a round-over like I did and it has even better on and off axis behavior.
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/peerless-by-tymphany/TC9FD18-08/6211125?s=N4IgTCBcDaIC4GMCcACAZgEwIwA4C0ADDiALoC+QA
Here's all the info you need on the TC9 to judge it: https://hificompass.com/en/speakers/measurements/peerless/peerless-tc9fd18-08
For best sound it just needs a little EQ shaping as it has a rising response. Too bad some people are allergic to that kind of tweaking
.The rising response actually helps make it an excellent driver for this task. Put it behind a round-over like I did and it has even better on and off axis behavior.
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Hmmmmm....so if your link is to be trusted. the TC9 doesn't have a rising response.......do your own measurements differ?Can you shop here?
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/peerless-by-tymphany/TC9FD18-08/6211125?s=N4IgTCBcDaIC4GMCcACAZgEwIwA4C0ADDiALoC+QA
Here's all the info you need on the TC9 to judge it: https://hificompass.com/en/speakers/measurements/peerless/peerless-tc9fd18-08
For best sound it just needs a little EQ shaping as it has a rising response. Too bad some people are allergic to that kind of tweaking
The rising response actually helps make it an excellent driver for this task. Put it behind a round-over like I did and it has even better on and off axis behavior.
I cant see why not, i have followed the link and they don't say i cannot! - and if i were to buy 55 that would be £588, free shipping, which seems reasonable, given all the discussions. i cannot judge whether there might be anything better, so am inclined to take the proven route!Can you shop here?
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/peerless-by-tymphany/TC9FD18-08/6211125?s=N4IgTCBcDaIC4GMCcACAZgEwIwA4C0ADDiALoC+QA
Here's all the info you need on the TC9 to judge it: https://hificompass.com/en/speakers/measurements/peerless/peerless-tc9fd18-08
For best sound it just needs a little EQ shaping as it has a rising response. Too bad some people are allergic to that kind of tweaking
The rising response actually helps make it an excellent driver for this task. Put it behind a round-over like I did and it has even better on and off axis behavior.
M
I need to understand baffle shapes and "round over"
The Faital name gets good reviews, but the numbers are at least 50% greater.
I will have EQ anyway so i can shape the response, no problem.
I want to hear some magic when i have finished but will not likely be as discerning as any currently responding! - so feel the TC9 remains the choice for me.
My drivers were from 2011, they had slightly different specs judged by the spec sheet at the time and all information available at that point in time showed an on-axis rising response.
Quite similar to the Scan Speak 10F, but the TC9 is better at lower frequencies and responds better to an EQ boost down low.
The Scan 10F is cleaner up top.
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I took a look at the link and the TC9 spec sheet at DigiKey has a nice (for me) interactive graph (put the cursor on the line and it reads off the values) that rises gradually above 1700 Hz on axis. is this the discussion?
As they will be subject to EQ, i assume one solves that with EQ? - like the bass?
Current stock is 361, so may order soon.
M
As they will be subject to EQ, i assume one solves that with EQ? - like the bass?
Current stock is 361, so may order soon.
M
https://products.peerless-audio.com/transducer/193
Yes, that compared to the hificompass measurements I linked to. Nothing to worry about, you need EQ anyway, anyhow.
If these are out of stock again, the wait can be quite long before a new batch shows up.
These would be even more desirable: https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/peerless-by-tymphany/TG9FD10-08/6557536 but I haven't seen any stock of that for more than 8 years or so. And those eyes....
Yes, that compared to the hificompass measurements I linked to. Nothing to worry about, you need EQ anyway, anyhow.
If these are out of stock again, the wait can be quite long before a new batch shows up.
These would be even more desirable: https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/peerless-by-tymphany/TG9FD10-08/6557536 but I haven't seen any stock of that for more than 8 years or so. And those eyes....
You wouldn't worry or wouldn't order!?😊I wouldn't.
I had imagined a fabric grille, as I prefer that in a domestic environment, probably important in the family environment, all depends what baffle and cabinet i might conjure up, After saying earlier they might be a complete wrap round sock, i do like the walnut veneer i saw on Halair's pics..........M - first the function though;
Volume per unit?
Baffle shapes?
Transducer mounting
EQ
are my current three top questions - ah that's four!
Member OPC used a "sock":
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/stupid-cheap-line-array.193015/page-2
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/stupid-cheap-line-array.193015/page-2
Interesting discussion, lots of great practical information flying around here. 👍🏻
I heard this line array (in a stereo pair obviously) and it was a surprising and wonderful experience. It is based on 25 Visaton FRS8M drivers, unshaded and some fairly basic passive filtering to balance the frequency response. It was crossed to a sub, but I don't remember at which frequency or what the subwoofer was. Anyway, it was at a diy-meet and I could play my own music and I chose Mahler, 5th symphony, the opening minutes with the powerful trumpet phrases. A recording of an orchestra I know well, a trumpet player I have heard many times, recorded in a concert hall with a famous and characteristic acoustic signature (Concertgebouw in Amsterdam). The scale of the sound was very good and the sort of lazy and dark dying off of the reverberation in the hall was absolutely perfect. There were many excellent loudspeakers there that day and in many ways they sounded more detailed, special, etc. But this basic line array absolutely slayed overall. So I attributed this to its dispersion characteristics and, basically, the total cone area of a 15 inch driver with the midrange and treble of a 3 inch fullrange driver.
I looked into the concept but the sheer number of driver and resulting cost were prohibitive. A bit later, I heard a 4 driver array crossed over fairly high in the midrange, which gave some of the effect. I wanted to limit vertical dispersion due to harsh reflections off the floor and ceiling of my living room, so gave the smaller line array a go. 6 drivers.
By that time, Visaton had recently released the FRS5X:
SD is a mere 12.5 cm^2, it has a beautifully extended treble, good dispersion. Too small for a sub-sat system by itself, but it worked very well in a short line array. Definitely offered enough vertical beaming to get rid of those nasty reflections. But still a limited cone area, so sounded a bit tame on dynamics.
If I ever would to a full floor to ceiling line array, I would prefer to use this driver. But because it's even smaller, I would need even more than 25. Yikes.
I heard some really long ribbon "tweeters" (something like 1.8 meters long) crossed at 200Hz to woofers. I guess that would be a suitable proper line source. It sounded really good, but.... Not sure if it sounded any better than the Visaton 25's.
Hmmmmm I should have a point in sharing this... 😉
Ah, yes, I strongly feel that it matters why you are building speakers and what you want to get out of it. For me, it started out of curiosity for "different sound" by which I mean: what do people mean by horn dynamics, what effect do different dispersion patterns have etc etc etc. I know what a civilised consumer audio two-way sounds like, but what else is out there?
I think that small fullrange drivers in a large line array offer that big cone area/small driver midrange and treble experience, and the special dispersion characteristics. As such, they are highly involving and enjoyable. I have heard an open baffle system, a 3-way based on consumer level drivers and a very brilliant crossover (designer has a PhD in that stuff, he takes no prisoners and doesn't need exotic components to achieve that) that was obviously superior, by far. Definitely the drivers working together optimally, the front and rear radiation patterns flawless and identical. I also heard a horn system with a coaxial compression driver in a round tractrix horn that had that same coherence, but a very different experience.
I believe very much in the 80-20 rule, getting 80% of the result with 20% of the effort. A bucket load of fullrange drivers in a line array are definitely in my top 3 of 20% effort for lots of quality. Perhaps number one if you're someone like Wesayso and can take that long path of DSP optimisation. Wesayso, I have followed your work for years, big respect!
OP, I would do more work with regards to driver selection. The driver used determines so much about the character of the resulting line array. The driver under consideration is old and still OK, but there may be others more suited in the price range by now.
I heard this line array (in a stereo pair obviously) and it was a surprising and wonderful experience. It is based on 25 Visaton FRS8M drivers, unshaded and some fairly basic passive filtering to balance the frequency response. It was crossed to a sub, but I don't remember at which frequency or what the subwoofer was. Anyway, it was at a diy-meet and I could play my own music and I chose Mahler, 5th symphony, the opening minutes with the powerful trumpet phrases. A recording of an orchestra I know well, a trumpet player I have heard many times, recorded in a concert hall with a famous and characteristic acoustic signature (Concertgebouw in Amsterdam). The scale of the sound was very good and the sort of lazy and dark dying off of the reverberation in the hall was absolutely perfect. There were many excellent loudspeakers there that day and in many ways they sounded more detailed, special, etc. But this basic line array absolutely slayed overall. So I attributed this to its dispersion characteristics and, basically, the total cone area of a 15 inch driver with the midrange and treble of a 3 inch fullrange driver.
I looked into the concept but the sheer number of driver and resulting cost were prohibitive. A bit later, I heard a 4 driver array crossed over fairly high in the midrange, which gave some of the effect. I wanted to limit vertical dispersion due to harsh reflections off the floor and ceiling of my living room, so gave the smaller line array a go. 6 drivers.
By that time, Visaton had recently released the FRS5X:
SD is a mere 12.5 cm^2, it has a beautifully extended treble, good dispersion. Too small for a sub-sat system by itself, but it worked very well in a short line array. Definitely offered enough vertical beaming to get rid of those nasty reflections. But still a limited cone area, so sounded a bit tame on dynamics.
If I ever would to a full floor to ceiling line array, I would prefer to use this driver. But because it's even smaller, I would need even more than 25. Yikes.
I heard some really long ribbon "tweeters" (something like 1.8 meters long) crossed at 200Hz to woofers. I guess that would be a suitable proper line source. It sounded really good, but.... Not sure if it sounded any better than the Visaton 25's.
Hmmmmm I should have a point in sharing this... 😉
Ah, yes, I strongly feel that it matters why you are building speakers and what you want to get out of it. For me, it started out of curiosity for "different sound" by which I mean: what do people mean by horn dynamics, what effect do different dispersion patterns have etc etc etc. I know what a civilised consumer audio two-way sounds like, but what else is out there?
I think that small fullrange drivers in a large line array offer that big cone area/small driver midrange and treble experience, and the special dispersion characteristics. As such, they are highly involving and enjoyable. I have heard an open baffle system, a 3-way based on consumer level drivers and a very brilliant crossover (designer has a PhD in that stuff, he takes no prisoners and doesn't need exotic components to achieve that) that was obviously superior, by far. Definitely the drivers working together optimally, the front and rear radiation patterns flawless and identical. I also heard a horn system with a coaxial compression driver in a round tractrix horn that had that same coherence, but a very different experience.
I believe very much in the 80-20 rule, getting 80% of the result with 20% of the effort. A bucket load of fullrange drivers in a line array are definitely in my top 3 of 20% effort for lots of quality. Perhaps number one if you're someone like Wesayso and can take that long path of DSP optimisation. Wesayso, I have followed your work for years, big respect!
OP, I would do more work with regards to driver selection. The driver used determines so much about the character of the resulting line array. The driver under consideration is old and still OK, but there may be others more suited in the price range by now.
Thanks so much for that input Ivo, as you say, lots of good practical information being given, and i shall need more! - i appreciate the help!
Probably whilst you were typing i was placing the order for the TC9's............
I take your point, there may be better drivers these days, but i cannot select them, i don't have the knowledge to do that, and my aim is to build some good speakers, not undertake a research project, so i have gone with the opinion of the majority that its a good choice.
Next will be to consider how i can make a reasonable baffle and cabinet, i don't have CNC but can do a bit of hand routing.
Then there's the EQ to consider!
Probably whilst you were typing i was placing the order for the TC9's............
I take your point, there may be better drivers these days, but i cannot select them, i don't have the knowledge to do that, and my aim is to build some good speakers, not undertake a research project, so i have gone with the opinion of the majority that its a good choice.
Next will be to consider how i can make a reasonable baffle and cabinet, i don't have CNC but can do a bit of hand routing.
Then there's the EQ to consider!