Yeah, OP oughta check out some Ornette Coleman. Pretty much in the same vein as Brubeck and others 😉
Being that I used to play jazz guitar for a living, taught music theory for a few years at New School Jazz in NYC, and a Jazz Appreciation class as a continuing ed teacher, I figure I can weigh in with what you might be hearing and reacting to.
Before about 1945, jazz music was popular music, meant to be danced to. It had to be tuneful and danceable, therefore 'accessible'. Some, like Duke Ellington, could be pretty challenging, but always within the confines of danceable popular music. Most people would call that 'swing' music. Duke Ellington, Count Basie, Benny Goodman, Artie Shaw, etc etc. An example of a too-accessible artist would be Glenn Miller, who was basically a pop star. His music has not held up as well as the more experimental and forward-thinking but far less popular (back then) Duke Ellington. Of course now Duke is considered one of the great geniuses of 20th century music. Hindsight is 20/20.
In the late 1940s, Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie and associates changed the direction of jazz music away from popular dance music and towards a more intellectual music for serious listening which became known as "Bebop". It still swung, it was still melodic and often danceable (e.g., "Now's The Time") but the improvised solos and written 'heads' were much more complex and difficult to play than the swing music of the previous decade. It was meant to be 'serious' and 'difficult' music. Charlie Parker idolized Stravinsky, whose music could be quite dissonant and challenging.
As a broad generalization, 'modern jazz' or the acoustic jazz music developing from bebop in the mid to late 1940s through the late 1960s and into the 1970s is for the most part fairly challenging music. It was not meant to be danced to, it was meant for 'serious' listening. But even within that broad category, there is music that is more accessible and music that is more challenging. As you mentioned, a great artist like John Coltrane could play the finest 'accessible' music (as in the 'Ballads' album) and challenge the heck out of you too (as in the album 'Ascension').
In the 1960s, 'free jazz' became the 'new thing', and I suspect it's the influence of that style that turns you off. That's 100% okay -- it turns a lot of people off.
Basically, 'accessible' music is that which isn't meant to be really challenging or difficult, but which is still finely crafted, highly developed music. That is all perfectly 100% perfectly fine. Each musician has his/her own personality, and that's part of what makes music so much fun.
Let's take tenor saxophonists.
An example of a tenor saxophonist who specialized in 'accessible' music might be Zoot Sims. Zoot was always melodic and tuneful. Easy to grasp, and an excellent, imaginative player within his style. More challenging, but in a similar vein would be the great Stan Getz. He scored huge pop hits in the early 1960s playing Brazilian bossa nova with singer Astrud Gilberto, singer/guitarist/composer Joao Gilberto and pianist/composer Antonio Carlos Jobim. "The Girl From Ipanema" was a smash hit, which I'm sure you've heard. The saxophone you hear on that record is Stan Getz. (In the late 1960s Getz hooked up with young musicians and began to play a more challenging style that is less accessible to most listeners.)
An example of a more challenging tenor saxophonist would be the late, great Wayne Shorter, who was at heart an experimental artist, pushing the boundaries of what people call 'jazz' music. Even so, Wayne wrote and played ballads that are achingly beautiful. His music was always strikingly original, and so could be kind of spiky and edgy. You may love his music or you may not. It is all challenging.
Melodic, 'accessible' musicians of the 1950s thru '70s might include:
Bill Evans (piano)
Jim Hall (guitar) <-- A MASTER. Do check him out.
Ed Bickert (guitar) <-- ditto
Paul Desmond (alto sax)
Miles Davis in the 1950s, e.g. "Kind of Blue", "Workin'", "Steamin'", "Relaxin'", etc.
Kenny Burrell (guitar)
Hank Jones (piano)
Tommy Flanagan (piano)
Gene Ammons (bluesy tenor sax)
Cannonball Adderley (alto sax)
Wes Montgomery (guitar)
John Coltrane in the 1950s (he was playing 'straight ahead' 'post-bop' music then)
Red Garland (piano)
'Challenging' musicians of the 1950s thru '70s:
Ornette Coleman (alto sax, composer)
Eric Dolphy (alto sax, bass clarinet, flute)
John Coltrane Quartet of the 1960s
Charles Mingus (bass, composer)
Miles Davis of the mid-1960s (then goes electric in the 1970s)
Wayne Shorter (tenor sax)
Joe Henderson (tenor sax)
McCoy Tyner (piano, especially challenging at the height of his career in the 1970s)
That's just a sampling of musicians whose names popped into my head first as examples of the two fairly arbitrary categories of 'accessible' and 'challenging'. But I hope this gives you a better picture of the wide scope of jazz music, and helps inform your opinions and likes/dislikes. There's been so much great jazz music recorded in the last 90 years, Nobody has to love all of it, but it's worth exploring just to get to know our musical heritage.
Happy listening, and most of all. enjoy the adventure.
Before about 1945, jazz music was popular music, meant to be danced to. It had to be tuneful and danceable, therefore 'accessible'. Some, like Duke Ellington, could be pretty challenging, but always within the confines of danceable popular music. Most people would call that 'swing' music. Duke Ellington, Count Basie, Benny Goodman, Artie Shaw, etc etc. An example of a too-accessible artist would be Glenn Miller, who was basically a pop star. His music has not held up as well as the more experimental and forward-thinking but far less popular (back then) Duke Ellington. Of course now Duke is considered one of the great geniuses of 20th century music. Hindsight is 20/20.
In the late 1940s, Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie and associates changed the direction of jazz music away from popular dance music and towards a more intellectual music for serious listening which became known as "Bebop". It still swung, it was still melodic and often danceable (e.g., "Now's The Time") but the improvised solos and written 'heads' were much more complex and difficult to play than the swing music of the previous decade. It was meant to be 'serious' and 'difficult' music. Charlie Parker idolized Stravinsky, whose music could be quite dissonant and challenging.
As a broad generalization, 'modern jazz' or the acoustic jazz music developing from bebop in the mid to late 1940s through the late 1960s and into the 1970s is for the most part fairly challenging music. It was not meant to be danced to, it was meant for 'serious' listening. But even within that broad category, there is music that is more accessible and music that is more challenging. As you mentioned, a great artist like John Coltrane could play the finest 'accessible' music (as in the 'Ballads' album) and challenge the heck out of you too (as in the album 'Ascension').
In the 1960s, 'free jazz' became the 'new thing', and I suspect it's the influence of that style that turns you off. That's 100% okay -- it turns a lot of people off.
Basically, 'accessible' music is that which isn't meant to be really challenging or difficult, but which is still finely crafted, highly developed music. That is all perfectly 100% perfectly fine. Each musician has his/her own personality, and that's part of what makes music so much fun.
Let's take tenor saxophonists.
An example of a tenor saxophonist who specialized in 'accessible' music might be Zoot Sims. Zoot was always melodic and tuneful. Easy to grasp, and an excellent, imaginative player within his style. More challenging, but in a similar vein would be the great Stan Getz. He scored huge pop hits in the early 1960s playing Brazilian bossa nova with singer Astrud Gilberto, singer/guitarist/composer Joao Gilberto and pianist/composer Antonio Carlos Jobim. "The Girl From Ipanema" was a smash hit, which I'm sure you've heard. The saxophone you hear on that record is Stan Getz. (In the late 1960s Getz hooked up with young musicians and began to play a more challenging style that is less accessible to most listeners.)
An example of a more challenging tenor saxophonist would be the late, great Wayne Shorter, who was at heart an experimental artist, pushing the boundaries of what people call 'jazz' music. Even so, Wayne wrote and played ballads that are achingly beautiful. His music was always strikingly original, and so could be kind of spiky and edgy. You may love his music or you may not. It is all challenging.
Melodic, 'accessible' musicians of the 1950s thru '70s might include:
Bill Evans (piano)
Jim Hall (guitar) <-- A MASTER. Do check him out.
Ed Bickert (guitar) <-- ditto
Paul Desmond (alto sax)
Miles Davis in the 1950s, e.g. "Kind of Blue", "Workin'", "Steamin'", "Relaxin'", etc.
Kenny Burrell (guitar)
Hank Jones (piano)
Tommy Flanagan (piano)
Gene Ammons (bluesy tenor sax)
Cannonball Adderley (alto sax)
Wes Montgomery (guitar)
John Coltrane in the 1950s (he was playing 'straight ahead' 'post-bop' music then)
Red Garland (piano)
'Challenging' musicians of the 1950s thru '70s:
Ornette Coleman (alto sax, composer)
Eric Dolphy (alto sax, bass clarinet, flute)
John Coltrane Quartet of the 1960s
Charles Mingus (bass, composer)
Miles Davis of the mid-1960s (then goes electric in the 1970s)
Wayne Shorter (tenor sax)
Joe Henderson (tenor sax)
McCoy Tyner (piano, especially challenging at the height of his career in the 1970s)
That's just a sampling of musicians whose names popped into my head first as examples of the two fairly arbitrary categories of 'accessible' and 'challenging'. But I hope this gives you a better picture of the wide scope of jazz music, and helps inform your opinions and likes/dislikes. There's been so much great jazz music recorded in the last 90 years, Nobody has to love all of it, but it's worth exploring just to get to know our musical heritage.
Happy listening, and most of all. enjoy the adventure.
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If you like Keith Jarrett, then I'm sure you'll enjoy:
Bill Evans (the pianist, not the saxophonist) - start with the ultra-classics "Waltz For Debby" and "Sunday at the Village Vanguard"
Brad Mehldau - start with "Introducing Brad Mehldau". His later music gets more complex and challenging.
Bill Evans (the pianist, not the saxophonist) - start with the ultra-classics "Waltz For Debby" and "Sunday at the Village Vanguard"
Brad Mehldau - start with "Introducing Brad Mehldau". His later music gets more complex and challenging.
You mentioned gypsy jazz. You might find Joscho Stephan to be of some interest. He is a young guitar player from Germany and performs gypsy and other forms of jazz. His work is extremely virtuosic, and I always find him very entertaining. He also has some amazing work on YouTube with Tommy Emmanuel - worth checking out in its own right.
Also look at Modern Jazz Quartet - founded in the early 1950's - so don't let "modern" in the name throw you off. They invented the concept of "Chamber Jazz" . Instrumentation was piano, vibes, bass, and percussion. Their influences were traditional jazz, blues, and classical. Their music was always for listening as opposed to dancing, and they never played club dates - strictly concert halls.
Also look at Modern Jazz Quartet - founded in the early 1950's - so don't let "modern" in the name throw you off. They invented the concept of "Chamber Jazz" . Instrumentation was piano, vibes, bass, and percussion. Their influences were traditional jazz, blues, and classical. Their music was always for listening as opposed to dancing, and they never played club dates - strictly concert halls.
Not sure if you'd like the gypsy/swing music music of Django Reinhardt and his various bands, including with Stefan Grappelli. Unfortunately, like the great Charlie Christian, he recorded in the days of 78s and the sound quality is pretty ordinary.
Try this taster, a modern cover of one of his famous numbers by Gretschen Menn, who's better known as a member of 'Zepperella', a Led Zep covers band:
Geoff
Try this taster, a modern cover of one of his famous numbers by Gretschen Menn, who's better known as a member of 'Zepperella', a Led Zep covers band:
Geoff
Adding to that, I‘d like to push Don Cherry. A lot of his recordings won’t match as it is deeply free jazz stuff, and still, uncle Don has so much warmth and kindness in his playing that I still find it wonderful! A very mucu easier approach to his style is multiculti, easy fairitaily jazz
Wow! What an interesting read. I'm not OP but thank you for writing that up
Kinda unrelated, but I have a question for you. I kinda get the sense that a lot of the flavors of jazz I listen to were targeted at an audience other than the jazz cats you might associate the term with. What is the general perception among folks such as yourself, who presumably live in the heart of the genre, of music from the likes of The Lounge Lizards, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Jameszoo, John Zorn's newer stuff, Tigran Hamasyan, Ben Lamar Gay, or other similar artists who barely fit the classification? In the case of The Lounge Lizards, I've even heard their music referred to as "fake jazz"
I love the stuff, personally, but I've always wondered if it is also respected by more seasoned musicians
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This are just a few of the albums I suggest to people new to Jazz, easy to listen to but still interesting.
Wayne Shorter- "Speak No Evil" perfect album
Miles Davis- "In Person at the Blackhawk" Miles with Hank Mobley on Tenor, very swingin
Cannonball Adderley- "Somethin Else" a great album with a guest spot from Miles
Shelly Manne And His Men- "Live at the Blackhawk" 5 albums worth of swinging west coast jazz
John Coltrane- "Blue Train" the first album I heard that got me hooked on Jazz
Sonny Rollins- "A Night at the Village Vanguard" live Sonny a little more fun and loose than studio Sonny
Thelonious Monk- "Live at the It Club" monk with his most cohesive swinginest band, Charley Rouse is the perfect compliment to Monk
Wes Montgomery- "Smokin at the Halfnote" Wes on fire
Grant Green- "Idle Moments" laid back and cool
Louie Armstrong- "Hot Fives and Hot Sevens" peak Louie before he got cheezy
Duke Ellington- "The Blanton Webster Band" Duke at his zenith
Wayne Shorter- "Speak No Evil" perfect album
Miles Davis- "In Person at the Blackhawk" Miles with Hank Mobley on Tenor, very swingin
Cannonball Adderley- "Somethin Else" a great album with a guest spot from Miles
Shelly Manne And His Men- "Live at the Blackhawk" 5 albums worth of swinging west coast jazz
John Coltrane- "Blue Train" the first album I heard that got me hooked on Jazz
Sonny Rollins- "A Night at the Village Vanguard" live Sonny a little more fun and loose than studio Sonny
Thelonious Monk- "Live at the It Club" monk with his most cohesive swinginest band, Charley Rouse is the perfect compliment to Monk
Wes Montgomery- "Smokin at the Halfnote" Wes on fire
Grant Green- "Idle Moments" laid back and cool
Louie Armstrong- "Hot Fives and Hot Sevens" peak Louie before he got cheezy
Duke Ellington- "The Blanton Webster Band" Duke at his zenith
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Wow -- GREAT question!
I'm familiar with John Zorn from back in the 1990s and aughts, but not later.
I knew and played with some musicians who were associated with the Lounge Lizards. They're really good musicians.
When I was a teenybopper learning to play guitar, I idolized John McLaughlin -- especially on "Birds Of Fire". I even learned the guitar solo from the title cut.
I'm not familiar with the other musicians you named.
I think those are examples of music that is out of the 'mainstream' of jazz, but definitely related. Some of John Zorn's work could be lumped in the category of 'New Music', along with Philip Glass or Steve Reich -- but of course it's completely different. The question of what is and what is not 'jazz' is a vexing one, because the question "What is jazz?" is almost impossible to answer in a satisfactory manner. Duke Ellington and Miles Davis both disliked the word 'jazz' - feeling it limited them and pigeonholed them into a 'category' -- It's all just music, after all.
I kept my examples to classic, 'mainstream' jazz of the 1950s and 1960s to keep things clear and easily understandable. Also as an entry point for beginning the adventure of finding which musicians move you.
There's a whole world of great music out there, an awful lot of it called 'jazz' -- but what the heck is that?
How about:
Bill Frisell
The current work of Andrew Cyrille and Trio 3 (with Oliver Lake and Reggie Workman)
Kurt Rosenwinkel
Robert Glasper Experiment
Oregon
Paul Winter Consort
etc etc etc
Me too! Although I'm not too far off from still being a "teenybopper" lol
Every member of Mahavishnu Orchestra is a standout for me, especially Billy Cobham. I still listen to his music regularly
Frank Zappa, John Zorn, and then John McLaughlin are probably the 3 most formative artists for me in the development of my tastes. Have you heard McLaughlin's work on Shakti? That part of his career is probably my favorite. Get Down and Sruti from Natural Elements, and Joy from Shakti with John McLaughlin are great examples. There is also Remember Shakti, which was formed by McLaughlin after the unfortunate deaths of some of the members of the original lineup.
I appreciate your response! That's a very good way of thinking about it. Also, so cool that you have played with some of the associated Lounge Lizards musicians! Are you a fan of their guitarist Marc Ribot? He's another favorite of mine. I love his playing in this video:
Bill Frisell was my most listened to artist of 2022, and is on track for 4th this year! He is tied for my favorite electric guitarist (couldn't quite dethrone Julian Lage for me, but he at LEAST shares that seat. They actually play together on View With a Room, which has some of my favorite guitar moments ever on it). I found his music through looking up the personnel on Naked City by Zorn, so imagine my surprise when my search resulted in me finding (among other things, of course) some of the most serenely beautiful music I've ever heard. Some of the happiest whiplash I've ever experienced. Frisell's got range! Oregon was the band to introduce me to instrumental music, specifically the album Out of the Woods. Also a big fan of Robert Glasper.
The others, I will check out ASAP! It's a pain having such particular tastes, when almost no one can sate them. So, I appreciate the recommendations
It's also funny you mention Steve Reich and Philip Glass, because that sort of music is the only kind that I potentially listen to more than jazz! If you can think of any more, I'd definitely make it a priority to check em out! I guess my tastes could be broadly defined as a fusion of punk, jazz, and minimalism, if that helps
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Oh, and definitely check out Tigran Hamasyan if you can find the time. He studied under Vijay Iyer
I think I'm a bit er... older than you. I saw Shakti a couple of times. I was about 17 years old at the time.
I became a kind of bebop fanatic, and I got set in my ways. I listen to pretty much all straight ahead stuff nowadays.
Is that Marc Ribot on the John Zorn vid? I don't recognize the guitar player... (later,..) Oh, I read your post. That is Marc Ribot. He's cool, but that's not the kind of guitar I personally like to listen to. Purely a taste thing. One cool thing that Marc did was his Cuban music band, Los Cubanos Postizos. They played the music of Arsenio Rodríguez, one of the giants of 20th century Cuban music. Check this out (Arsenio):
¡Diablo!
Have you heard Mehliana?
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Wow! I'm so jealous. I'd kill for a seat at one of those showsI saw Shakti a couple of times. I was about 17 years old at the time.
Yep, that's Marc.
Nope! But I love Brad Mehdau. Some days I have RoundAgain with him, Joshua Redman, Christian McBride and Brian Blade on repeat, haha
Watching, and thoroughly enjoying the video you sent now
I'm in danger of being overwhelmed!
Currently on my 3rd Rum n' Eggnog and listening to Christmas music while I pre-make our traditional Christmas Eve dinner, which is French-Canadian Tourtière.
I will be back to this thread to closely read everything, but traveling tomorrow for an early start to the Holidays, so all I can manage right now is a hearty "Happy Holidays!!!" to everyone!
Currently on my 3rd Rum n' Eggnog and listening to Christmas music while I pre-make our traditional Christmas Eve dinner, which is French-Canadian Tourtière.
I will be back to this thread to closely read everything, but traveling tomorrow for an early start to the Holidays, so all I can manage right now is a hearty "Happy Holidays!!!" to everyone!