I've never understood why speaker cable questions devolve into rancor and counterproductive arguements.
I think asking questions about the effects of cable and cross-over DCR on speaker performance are very relevant.
While the effects may be minimal on short runs of good thick cable not all beginners know this, I remember the cheating that Monster went through with their "instore" demonstrations decades ago
I think asking questions about the effects of cable and cross-over DCR on speaker performance are very relevant.
While the effects may be minimal on short runs of good thick cable not all beginners know this, I remember the cheating that Monster went through with their "instore" demonstrations decades ago
I was reading that a power cable that was made with aluminum/copper clad and an unknow covering by a maker of cables
did cause issues. It was a weave and came in different colors. It was under 100.00 USD and had 5 dollars worth of materials
that caused certain amps to screw up. I think it was certain class Ds. How do you screw up a PC? They managed too.
I look at my old equipment and most have fixed copper lamp cable 45 years or older. The house hasn't burned down yet.
AC resistance being impedance?
SPL losses in cables being not due to resistance?
Is an Ohm or so not really going to have any impact?
So is the money I may have just spent of good cable for my home theatre system actually been wasted and if this is so why do most people use big fat 2.5mm<2 stuff for in wall installations?
Real questions because if I don't really need all this big speaker cable I'll strip it for scrap; copper being scarce and quite valuable this year, and use the skinny stuff
SPL losses in cables being not due to resistance?
Is an Ohm or so not really going to have any impact?
So is the money I may have just spent of good cable for my home theatre system actually been wasted and if this is so why do most people use big fat 2.5mm<2 stuff for in wall installations?
Real questions because if I don't really need all this big speaker cable I'll strip it for scrap; copper being scarce and quite valuable this year, and use the skinny stuff
200W / 220V = 1 amp.
So a mains wire which can take 2 amps safely is enough.
Just don't use connectors intended for mains.
My mold maker had one of those cheap FM radios, and the mains plug broke, so he used the wire direct to the socket, which was one for many like chargers etc., so a lot of swapping.
His employee found a big speaker, and liked to use the big speaker with USB function on the FM radio, all was well, until he decided to move the speaker, and connected it to mains instead of the radio.
Both wire were bare, no plug....
Burned the coil....
To sum up, most speakers do not have the load of other equipment, almost any good quality wire will do.
Even a light duty drill is 300W and up...and those wires are maybe 1 square mm, if you are lucky.
So a mains wire which can take 2 amps safely is enough.
Just don't use connectors intended for mains.
My mold maker had one of those cheap FM radios, and the mains plug broke, so he used the wire direct to the socket, which was one for many like chargers etc., so a lot of swapping.
His employee found a big speaker, and liked to use the big speaker with USB function on the FM radio, all was well, until he decided to move the speaker, and connected it to mains instead of the radio.
Both wire were bare, no plug....
Burned the coil....
To sum up, most speakers do not have the load of other equipment, almost any good quality wire will do.
Even a light duty drill is 300W and up...and those wires are maybe 1 square mm, if you are lucky.
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Of course an ohm has an impact. But once you get it in the tens of milliohms its a don’t care beyond that. Any short piece of #12 will get you there. Doesn’t matter if it’s some snake oil brand at $80 a foot or Carol Cable at 50 cents.
AC resistance does differ from DC resistance - slightly. The bigger the cable, the MORE the difference. Solid vs. Stranded, and the strand count also change AC R slightly. But for reasonable wire lengths the difference is negligible. If in doubt, just buy #10 off the roll at Home Depot and it’s as good as a higher strand count #12 (at less price too).
AC resistance does differ from DC resistance - slightly. The bigger the cable, the MORE the difference. Solid vs. Stranded, and the strand count also change AC R slightly. But for reasonable wire lengths the difference is negligible. If in doubt, just buy #10 off the roll at Home Depot and it’s as good as a higher strand count #12 (at less price too).
Wrong.
A MAINS wire passing 200W will work with 220V and carry 1 ampere.
But we are NOT talking mains powered tools here, but speaker loads instead, please read the thread title before jumping to answer without thinking.
A 200W speaker will stand 20V and pass 10A ... you still think a 2A rated cable is enough?
WE-ARE-NOT-TALKING-POWER-TOOLS-HERE
I thought a higher rail voltage was needed for those amplifier ratings.
So maybe less than 10 A rated wire is enough.
In any case, nothing exotic is needed in terms of wire, and 1.5 square mm, of ordinary wire should be enough. or at 250 W+ , maybe 2.5 square mm.
In concert venues, that is different, depends on the speakers and amplifiers.
And length, though I would hesitate above 50 feet.
Certainly not 1000 feet, better to runs mains to amps, and keep speaker wires short.
Then of course, amp input wire length would count, and that is carrying a low level signal...
So maybe less than 10 A rated wire is enough.
In any case, nothing exotic is needed in terms of wire, and 1.5 square mm, of ordinary wire should be enough. or at 250 W+ , maybe 2.5 square mm.
In concert venues, that is different, depends on the speakers and amplifiers.
And length, though I would hesitate above 50 feet.
Certainly not 1000 feet, better to runs mains to amps, and keep speaker wires short.
Then of course, amp input wire length would count, and that is carrying a low level signal...
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The only report that I can recall was Polk 'cobra cable' interacting with specific Naim amplifiers maybe 40 years ago. The very definition of an edge case.
Indeed, fully agree.
But the problem is not with the usually valid questions.
Please reread a couple cable threads and you´ll see that some answers or claims are outrageous, attributing magical properties to some very peculiar ideas about how a cable should be built, materials used, claimed improvements, etc.
THERE is where the brawl starts.
Since NO "cold clinical" measurements are ever used, or if any, completely unrelated and useless (impedane at 20 MHz, standing waves, skin effect, etc.), they are replaced by exaggerated claims: (I used to hear 3 violins, now I hear 17) or appeal at Authority, as in "my Wife came running from the kitchen and said what did you do? now it sounds 1000 times better"
OK Maybe then I won't delve further.
I have however always wondered why the person who first proposed using 3-core flex as speaker wire advised using the couple wires with the lower DCR as the return wire rather than the other way around. While I've always done that I've not ever understood why that might make a difference when the total resistance was the same
I have however always wondered why the person who first proposed using 3-core flex as speaker wire advised using the couple wires with the lower DCR as the return wire rather than the other way around. While I've always done that I've not ever understood why that might make a difference when the total resistance was the same
Doesn‘t make diddly squat which side you use for the return if you double up one side using the green conductor. It’s a series R. Just don’t squander the extra copper you already paid for and leave it unconnected in the interest of balance. Wrap one conductor around the other on the pigtail and solder. The resulting single conductor will still fit in a Speakon. Put a little piece of heat shrink on it and you don’t have to worry about it shorting.
Attachments
I use #12 extension cord in violent florescent colors for my speaker wires. I use a 4 pole speakon.
I connect the third wire to the 2+ terminal of the speakon. That way can wire a speaker internally +1 to +2, and then set the amp to bridged and it will work.
IR drop is of no concern.
And none of my applications require I worry about the impedance of the cable, as imaging is not a concern.
John
I connect the third wire to the 2+ terminal of the speakon. That way can wire a speaker internally +1 to +2, and then set the amp to bridged and it will work.
IR drop is of no concern.
And none of my applications require I worry about the impedance of the cable, as imaging is not a concern.
John
That’s still a valid use for the extra conductor - ease of use without swapping in the field. Wire them that way and have three (or 4) jacks on the cabinets. One wired for 1+/2+ and the others 1+/1- for non-bridge and/or daisy chaining. It’s not like it sitting in there chopped off and no use at all.
IR drop is a concern or you would be using 16 or 18 gauge wire. You simply deem a single run of #12 “good enough”. It is, but if that green wire isn’t doing anything else I’d rather drop the R that little bit more.
I use 4 pole speakons on my #12’s because it doesnt fit thru the backshell of an NL2FX. #14/3 does, and I have plenty of #14’s too - in fluorescent colors because often those fluorescent extension cords are on special sale cheap - and color coding bass, mid, high makes sense. I wire everything 1+/1- back at the amp rack so the cables are universal, even if the setup changes. When I build a big amp, I put on another pair of speakon jacks wired for bridge. I run little patch panels from the red binding posts to speakon jacks for bridge mode on store-bought amps. You just need a convention and stick with it, whatever it is.
IR drop is a concern or you would be using 16 or 18 gauge wire. You simply deem a single run of #12 “good enough”. It is, but if that green wire isn’t doing anything else I’d rather drop the R that little bit more.
I use 4 pole speakons on my #12’s because it doesnt fit thru the backshell of an NL2FX. #14/3 does, and I have plenty of #14’s too - in fluorescent colors because often those fluorescent extension cords are on special sale cheap - and color coding bass, mid, high makes sense. I wire everything 1+/1- back at the amp rack so the cables are universal, even if the setup changes. When I build a big amp, I put on another pair of speakon jacks wired for bridge. I run little patch panels from the red binding posts to speakon jacks for bridge mode on store-bought amps. You just need a convention and stick with it, whatever it is.
At 90 feet, I am not worried about the IR drop of a #12 vs two in parallel on one leg. The 2+ leg allows all my cables to be used for any speaker, only a cab defined for bridged use will connect to 2+. Granted, if the amp is configured stereo, the sound coming out of a bridged cab will be rather interesting.
As you say, define a convention and stick with it.
The primary reason I bought the wild florescent cords was to prevent confusion over who owns it, being #12 was my minimum requirement for neutrik 4 poles. The sound guy at work only had black cords.
Speaking of convention, I usually make a patch panel for the XLR out at the mixer and input at the amp. I wire R+ to XLR+, L+ to XLR -, gnd to gnd. I run single ended from mixer to amp using a standard mike cable. That meant the cable count from amp to mixer is two. I put nylon braid over the line cord and line signal cable, makes setup trivial. With the power and signal lines wrapped together, no ground loop is formed. This has worked for me with 100 foot amp to mixer runs, a one foot runs (mixer stacked on amp) and 6 foot runs (mixer on stand, amp on floor) are no brainers with no hum or noise.
John
As you say, define a convention and stick with it.
The primary reason I bought the wild florescent cords was to prevent confusion over who owns it, being #12 was my minimum requirement for neutrik 4 poles. The sound guy at work only had black cords.
Speaking of convention, I usually make a patch panel for the XLR out at the mixer and input at the amp. I wire R+ to XLR+, L+ to XLR -, gnd to gnd. I run single ended from mixer to amp using a standard mike cable. That meant the cable count from amp to mixer is two. I put nylon braid over the line cord and line signal cable, makes setup trivial. With the power and signal lines wrapped together, no ground loop is formed. This has worked for me with 100 foot amp to mixer runs, a one foot runs (mixer stacked on amp) and 6 foot runs (mixer on stand, amp on floor) are no brainers with no hum or noise.
John
Mains power cables are often specified for speaker use on PA installations when the electrical installer is also responsible for installing ceiling speakers, because this cheaper and easier way to do things. Local regulations allow it; however not all cable engineers recommend using these types of connections due risk factors involved such as long distances between outlets or bridges that may have high voltage wires running through them (which makes soldering difficult). Make sure you know what your amp can handle before plugging anything into an outlet near noisy equipment like saws since even though they're rated at higher tensions than household light switches