Hi X
These speakers sounded really nice
They had a very big and deep soundstage
Thing is this type of speaker That really does not have that
Typical sweet spot they just seem to disappear and the sound
Comes from the stage they really are fantastic actually
Beat the Manzanita Ultras that replaced them
But the WAF is quiet low for such a speaker so you have to pick your battles.
But I would say these DML make a speaker that even a really picky Audiophile
Could be really happy with they made this one happy for a long period.
These speakers sounded really nice
They had a very big and deep soundstage
Thing is this type of speaker That really does not have that
Typical sweet spot they just seem to disappear and the sound
Comes from the stage they really are fantastic actually
Beat the Manzanita Ultras that replaced them
But the WAF is quiet low for such a speaker so you have to pick your battles.
But I would say these DML make a speaker that even a really picky Audiophile
Could be really happy with they made this one happy for a long period.
Tall Story Update
Thank you for the kind comments and the interest.
Here is where I am after a re-test of everything this morning.
I tested the following
1. Tall panel in frame with damping on both long sides via foam tape. The panel was positioned horizontally between two supports.
2. Tall panel( no frame) literally held by my finger positioned 3 inches from the floor
3. Tall panel with the base of the panel touching the carpeted floor and the top held as in 2.
4. My main panels run full range without crossing to subs.
Details.
The ‘tall’ panel is 1160mm by 300mm 4mm Birch Ply BB grade
My main panels are 1200mm by 600mm 3mm Birch Ply BB grade suspended by wire.
I used a small 50watt class D on the tall panel and a mix of a Copland valve integrated and a Crown Class D amp for my main panels. I used two amps on the main panels because I thought I might have a problem with one of the amps. Turns out I did not. All amps were run full range with no DSP or EQ
The results were as follows
1. Full bass measured down to 40hz. Some output at 30hz
2. Full bass down to 40 hz and output was somewhat higher than 1. above
3. Same as 2. above
4. Much lower bass output than the tall panels- circa 90-100 hz at low output
Which doesn't make any sense at all.
I am going to buy a decent microphone and do some detailed measuring because I realise that these results are a might controversial and I want to get subjectivity out of the way and present you with some hard numbers.
For the avoidance of doubt, the frame made no significant difference in bass output. The damping made no significant difference in bass output. Frames and damping obviously have other benefits in tuning the sound and providing a more convenient format for the home.
At this time I have to conclude it does seem to be the shape that is having such a marked effect. To be frank this makes me feel very uncomfortable because I can’t explain why, I can only urge you to test it for yourself to verify the effect.
@ gazzagazza I have not finished the final build yet, I was experimenting midway so I can’t comment yet on the use of splines. I the test piece which I used horizontally I used a heavy book as a temporary reaction mass which seemed to provide some benefit but, as you will have read above, the free panel without a spline also produced good usable 40hz output. I will be pulling the build together today and tomorrow and will update then.
Best to all
Burnt
Thank you for the kind comments and the interest.
Here is where I am after a re-test of everything this morning.
I tested the following
1. Tall panel in frame with damping on both long sides via foam tape. The panel was positioned horizontally between two supports.
2. Tall panel( no frame) literally held by my finger positioned 3 inches from the floor
3. Tall panel with the base of the panel touching the carpeted floor and the top held as in 2.
4. My main panels run full range without crossing to subs.
Details.
The ‘tall’ panel is 1160mm by 300mm 4mm Birch Ply BB grade
My main panels are 1200mm by 600mm 3mm Birch Ply BB grade suspended by wire.
I used a small 50watt class D on the tall panel and a mix of a Copland valve integrated and a Crown Class D amp for my main panels. I used two amps on the main panels because I thought I might have a problem with one of the amps. Turns out I did not. All amps were run full range with no DSP or EQ
The results were as follows
1. Full bass measured down to 40hz. Some output at 30hz
2. Full bass down to 40 hz and output was somewhat higher than 1. above
3. Same as 2. above
4. Much lower bass output than the tall panels- circa 90-100 hz at low output
Which doesn't make any sense at all.
I am going to buy a decent microphone and do some detailed measuring because I realise that these results are a might controversial and I want to get subjectivity out of the way and present you with some hard numbers.
For the avoidance of doubt, the frame made no significant difference in bass output. The damping made no significant difference in bass output. Frames and damping obviously have other benefits in tuning the sound and providing a more convenient format for the home.
At this time I have to conclude it does seem to be the shape that is having such a marked effect. To be frank this makes me feel very uncomfortable because I can’t explain why, I can only urge you to test it for yourself to verify the effect.
@ gazzagazza I have not finished the final build yet, I was experimenting midway so I can’t comment yet on the use of splines. I the test piece which I used horizontally I used a heavy book as a temporary reaction mass which seemed to provide some benefit but, as you will have read above, the free panel without a spline also produced good usable 40hz output. I will be pulling the build together today and tomorrow and will update then.
Best to all
Burnt
@ihan. Hi Ian, following up on tape, the tape I used is this stuff
Fowong Adhesive Foam Tape 12mm(W) x 3mm(T) Draught Excluder Weather Stripping House Sealing Furniture Protective SoundProof, Total 15M Long (3 Rolls of 5M Long Each): Amazon.co.uk: DIY & Tools
Fowong and 3M make a range with different widths and thicknesses.
Fowong Adhesive Foam Tape 12mm(W) x 3mm(T) Draught Excluder Weather Stripping House Sealing Furniture Protective SoundProof, Total 15M Long (3 Rolls of 5M Long Each): Amazon.co.uk: DIY & Tools
Fowong and 3M make a range with different widths and thicknesses.
This should have read
4. Much less bass output than the tall panels- circa 90-100hz as lowest output.
Sorry for any confusion caused
Burnt
My shipment of 1200mmX600mmX10mm high density expanded polystyrene panels have recently arrived today. Yay me. lol
I will cut one panel in half to make 300mm like you suggested to see if bass output increases due to this shape. I am a little skeptical though because from my experience lower frequency bass response starts to suffer once the panels get smaller then 16inches take a few inches. Even The Podiums are around 23 inches wide and 55inches tall.
Hi DMLBES,
While it would be great to have someone else try this shape to see if you get the same result, I would not want you to change your plans on my account, and certainly not at this point. Why not wait until I have some decent measurements completed which will hopefully confirm what I am hearing. I hope to do that sooner rather than later.
Burnt
While it would be great to have someone else try this shape to see if you get the same result, I would not want you to change your plans on my account, and certainly not at this point. Why not wait until I have some decent measurements completed which will hopefully confirm what I am hearing. I hope to do that sooner rather than later.
Burnt
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Having doubts stopped me as my 15-16inch minimum rule has never failed me when it came to bass/lower frequencies. Plus 300mm is around 12inches which is only 3inches less. So I doubt adding 3-4inches would hurt and I believe more so could make it better in the lower frequencies.
I put together the prototype and gave it a quick listen, I have to be honest it was not very reassuring.
exciter and rubber tube is epoxied on and the whole thing seem quite solid.
I had suspended it on the frame vertically using quick grips, so the front wasn't touching anything.
I connected it to my small PC stereo amp (marantz m-CR511) to test it out.
I would describe the sound without EQ as extremely damped and very low output compared to my warfendale diamond 220 bookshelf speaker.
I then crancked up the volume and played around with EQ on the PC (voicemeter) and that helped quite a bit, but I had to do a very agressive EQ to make it sound anywhere near to a budget bookshelf speaker.
I am receiving my Umik-1 tomorrow and will do some measurements to get a better idea of what is going on.
I feel like the wooden board may over damped?
How aggressively do you guys need to EQ ply panels?
in case you missed it, its a 60mm x 90mm birch/spruce/birch 5mm plywood board (BB grade) and the exciter is a DAEX30HESF-4.
Edit: I swear those photos were neither rotated 90 deg. or flipped upside down, wth?!
exciter and rubber tube is epoxied on and the whole thing seem quite solid.
I had suspended it on the frame vertically using quick grips, so the front wasn't touching anything.
I connected it to my small PC stereo amp (marantz m-CR511) to test it out.
I would describe the sound without EQ as extremely damped and very low output compared to my warfendale diamond 220 bookshelf speaker.
I then crancked up the volume and played around with EQ on the PC (voicemeter) and that helped quite a bit, but I had to do a very agressive EQ to make it sound anywhere near to a budget bookshelf speaker.
I am receiving my Umik-1 tomorrow and will do some measurements to get a better idea of what is going on.
I feel like the wooden board may over damped?
How aggressively do you guys need to EQ ply panels?
in case you missed it, its a 60mm x 90mm birch/spruce/birch 5mm plywood board (BB grade) and the exciter is a DAEX30HESF-4.
Edit: I swear those photos were neither rotated 90 deg. or flipped upside down, wth?!
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Hi kaptajnThomsen,
How disappointing, you should have had a better result than that!
I will comment where I have experience. I run ply panels BB grade at two thicknesses, 3mm and 4mm, with similar exciters- Dayton Audio DAEX32EP-4 Thruster 32mm Exciter 40W 4 Ohm. The amount of energy going into the panels should be similar, I doubt the exciters are the problem.
Comparisons are very subjective but I would never describe the results from the panels I have as over-damped. Transients- e.g. drums etc, are startling in their rendition with real dynamics. I don't use any damping on these panels and they are suspended by wire.
I also have no problems with volume in a room 5M by 4M with carpeted floor and soft furnishings. So I suspect your diagnostic is right, you may have too much damping. DML's work by resonant modes, the mode nodes the better, and if you over damp you may be inhibiting this,
EQ is a matter of taste. I used to eq a little, in my experience ply does not need much, but I don't bother now.
If it's not too much work can you remove the panel from the frame and test out the panel without damping as a quick check?
Burnt
How disappointing, you should have had a better result than that!
I will comment where I have experience. I run ply panels BB grade at two thicknesses, 3mm and 4mm, with similar exciters- Dayton Audio DAEX32EP-4 Thruster 32mm Exciter 40W 4 Ohm. The amount of energy going into the panels should be similar, I doubt the exciters are the problem.
Comparisons are very subjective but I would never describe the results from the panels I have as over-damped. Transients- e.g. drums etc, are startling in their rendition with real dynamics. I don't use any damping on these panels and they are suspended by wire.
I also have no problems with volume in a room 5M by 4M with carpeted floor and soft furnishings. So I suspect your diagnostic is right, you may have too much damping. DML's work by resonant modes, the mode nodes the better, and if you over damp you may be inhibiting this,
EQ is a matter of taste. I used to eq a little, in my experience ply does not need much, but I don't bother now.
If it's not too much work can you remove the panel from the frame and test out the panel without damping as a quick check?
Burnt
I rigged something up pretty quick with some fishing line and quickdry superglued an exciter on a clean board with some very small screw hooks in the edge of the board, I think you may be able to see it in the picture.
I set it up in stereo so I could switch from left to right on the PC while sitting between the speakers and switch eq on or off.
Thanks for suggesting this comparison and i'm happy to say that the un-framed panel was a definite improvement over-all. I tried re-EQ'ing but I only had to raise it a bit below 500hz and above 10k hz. The bass was much more present as was evident when I switched from left to right.
What surprised me most was the significant boost I got from having them playing in stereo, even with one panel overly damped, the boost in output felt more significant then if I did the same with my bookshelf speakers.
So next ill try to remove the rubber and attach strings between my frame and front for a horizontal setup and test that out, but before that I will wait for my Umik-1 and test both current panels to have the measurement with the rubberfoam frame.
Attachments
Excellent! I am glad you made a step forward so quickly. I agree waiting until you can measure the panels as well as listening to them is very useful in diagnosing problems. In my limited experience the simpler you keep DMLs the better they sound. Good luck with the next steps and please share your results, it helps all of us learn.
Burnt
Burnt
You did your frame and spline wrong. These are basically Bipolar speakers so sound needs to radiate equally from the front to back. Your type of frame with spine covers too much of the back making the radiation pattern unequal so less output from the back side. Instead you should of mounted the frame on the outside of the "EDGES" of the panel. Also for the spine all you need is a "single" thin piece of wood. The spine's main purpose is to hold the exciters magnet in place to prevent voice coil sag and give the exciter something to push off of.