A Subjective Blind Comparison of 2in to 4in drivers - Round 3

[xrk971]

Just voted and attach txt file with ranking plus a guess for matching drivers to letters : )

Byrtt,
Your predictions were not bad - you got 4 of the 8 right, but the top 3 or 4, as we all had similar difficulties in picking a favored one, is not surprising that you could not pinpoint them. You ended up picking the B80, but thinking it was the SB65 which is interesting. I wish the B80 was easier to obtain in the US. I hear they are only $65 in Europe which is a very fair price considering the performance and build quality. The real surprise here is the plastic framed P830983 and SB65WBAC25-4, both tiny Nd motor 2.5inch drivers that pretty much can give a more expensive alloy framed Nd motor 3.5in and 4in drivers a run for the money. We will have to see how they all fare against each other in Round 4, which will feature two drivers from Peerless line of P83098x. Something to be said for that formula of building small aluminum cone drivers.

 

[BYRTT]

.....Why? Alpair can never catch a break during listening tests.....

Think it can't stop its energy soon enough, see IR below how a electric bandpass filter 200Hz-18kHz looks, then see how close but acoustic a 10/8424 gets to this, and last see how A7.3 rings. For fun show RS100P-4 from round 1 because this driver audio able for me was the best at ACDC track to sound as dry as possible compared to reference track which is really dry.

Electric bandpass 200Hz BW2 - 18kHz BW2:

xrk971's 10F/8424 plot linked from round 2 http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...3in-5in-drivers-round-2-a-17.html#post4328938.

xrk971's A7.3 plot linked from round 2 http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...3in-5in-drivers-round-2-a-17.html#post4328938.

xrk971's RS100P-4 plot linked from round 1 http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...in-5in-full-range-drivers-34.html#post4251796.

 

[mondogenerator]

Yes there were more drivers that sounded good and this made deciding much harder this time. When I get back to my computer I will post HD and impulse function plots. The drivers were really not stressed - I think about 85dB at 0.5m or 79dB at 1m. HD of most was not bad but one had a peak of 3 or 4% at 700Hz even at tbis low drive voltage.

I'd hazard a guess

Still even 79 dB is a very low level, and whilst the FRS5X isn't keen on loads of SPL, I don't think (hope) its that bad... So perhaps a second-guess would be the MA...

You've probably read the 2" TB madness thread?

Now that is what Id like to see/do with the FRS5X

I almost feel like sending the guy a pair and seeing what the results are

 

[timpert]

Mark expressedly has said that his drivers are meant to be listened to off axis

Which means there should be an optimal angle from which the response is cleanest. Is there any such data?

 

[5th element]

Which means there should be an optimal angle from which the response is cleanest. Is there any such data?

You'll be lucky getting useful information out of Mark is like squeezing blood from a stone.

Full rangers are not explicitly meant to be listened to off axis, I mean you can actually listen to them at any angle you so desire and really you should only listen to them at the angle that you prefer. You can tame most full rangers gently rising response by going off axis but the A7.3s don't show your the kind of response that going off axis will solve. The have an abrupt and severe jump up at just under 9k with massively elevated output above. Still below that issue they are pretty flat.

 

[BYRTT]

Which means there should be an optimal angle from which the response is cleanest. Is there any such data?

Why that necessary when datasheet show smooth response .

No serious for A7.3 Bob Brines had showed fine response at think 15º angled speaker, for other Alpairs don't know if they relative smooth off axis as A7.3.

Have a pair of A10.2M they need tons of EQ to get response like datasheet show and got it to sound relative pretty good by using EQ and combined LCR/RC passive network to linearize their impedance.

 

[vinylkid58]

Curious, the A7.3 appears to have measured the flattest yet it was at the bottom. Why? Alpair can never catch a break during listening tests.

Odd isn't it? As a "full range" driver, running in a box with no filters, it's an excellent driver. Maybe you should get a pair.

jeff

 

[xrk971]

xrk971's RS100P-4 plot linked from round 1 http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...in-5in-full-range-drivers-34.html#post4251796.

Byrtt,
Thanks for reminding us of how clean the IR of the RS100P-4 was. That is an impressive result and may warrant me to explore that driver a little further. It may deserve to be the mid in my next 3-way as it seemed to lack a little bit on the top end - but the clean IR and flat mid response may make it ideal for a transient perfect 3-way speaker. Something like RS225-8 for bass, RS100P-4 for mids, and RS28F-8 for the tops for an "All Dayton 3-way transient perfect speaker" using either a B&O "hole filler' XO or the symmetric (BW4-BES2-BW4) Harsch 3-way XO.

 

[timpert]

You can tame most full rangers gently rising response by going off axis

And which is why a gently rising response is forgivable or even desirable. At least, that's how I always looked at it.

No serious for A7.3 Bob Brines had showed fine response at think 15º angled speaker, for other Alpairs don't know if they relative smooth off axis as A7.3.

I think you're talking about the "another FAST option" thread. I saw his measurements, they look quite good. I didn't find any mention of equalization, so that leaves me wondering if he did anything to straighten out the Alpair.

 

[jeshi]

Perhaps it was too many drivers that kept people from taking the poll. I will try to keep is more manageable for final round. That may mean not being able to have a surprise driver. There was a request to put all three similar Vifa/SS drivers in final and that would mean adding the TG9FD. That would bring it to 7 drivers. Let's hear your thoughts on how many drivers you are all willing to do for the final round.
Thanks

Well round1 and 2 had 7 drivers and this round had 8 drivers, Not that big a difference.
Maybe it was the fact that the rounds 1&2 only had 3 tracks and this round had 4 different tracks and that the tracks this time were really similar styles. I would definitely recommend using fewer tracks and have them be more diverse styles. I found this round the classical track didn't help and there were several singer/guitar tracks, and no bass or pianos. I would highly recommend a jazz track again (bass, piano...). I find piano is the easiest way for me to judge the quality of a speaker driver.
Maybe a Holly Cole Trio track (bass piano singer) like these
https://youtu.be/NtNnoWJJd8o
https://youtu.be/nMDBjBc4yXc
https://youtu.be/ekATAVgUqvY
And something rock or jazzy with rhythm and dynamics.

I think this round was just harder to pick out differences with the choice of drivers being closer and the tracks not really helping to elucidate the differences.

I would be ok skipping the TG9FD if it would help people to participate though.

 

[xrk971]

Well round1 and 2 had 7 drivers and this round had 8 drivers, Not that big a difference.
Maybe it was the fact that the rounds 1&2 only had 3 tracks and this round had 4 different tracks and that the tracks this time were really similar styles. I would definitely recommend using fewer tracks and have them be more diverse styles. I found this round the classical track didn't help and there were several singer/guitar tracks, and no bass or pianos. I would highly recommend a jazz track again (bass, piano...). I find piano is the easiest way for me to judge the quality of a speaker driver.
Maybe a Holly Cole Trio track (bass piano singer) like these
https://youtu.be/NtNnoWJJd8o
https://youtu.be/nMDBjBc4yXc
https://youtu.be/ekATAVgUqvY
And something rock or jazzy with rhythm and dynamics.

I think this round was just harder to pick out differences with the choice of drivers being closer and the tracks not really helping to elucidate the differences.

I would be ok skipping the TG9FD if it would help people to participate though.

Jeshi,
Thanks for the feedback regarding choices of tracks for the test. I agree that the jazz track was a mistake in not being provided. Ok, I will look for good bass and pianos again to include. The ones you linked above are nice very simple vocals and you can clearly hear the bass and the piano. The 2000 miles is a possibility for the next round. The "I can see clearly now" is also a good possibility. I think I need a hard rock clip again with distorted electric guitar. Need a female vocal and male vocal. But try to keep to 3 tracks so maybe a combined male/female vocal track?

 

[jeshi]

Jeshi,
Thanks for the feedback regarding choices of tracks for the test. I agree that the jazz track was a mistake in not being provided. Ok, I will look for good bass and pianos again to include. The ones you linked above are nice very simple vocals and you can clearly hear the bass and the piano. The 2000 miles is a possibility for the next round. The "I can see clearly now" is also a good possibility. I think I need a hard rock clip again with distorted electric guitar. Need a female vocal and male vocal. But try to keep to 3 tracks so maybe a combined male/female vocal track?

The formula of the first round was good.
female vocals on emotional jazzy track (Nora jones)
Male vocals on rock track (ac/dc)
Jazz track with bass, piano and groove

Maybe something similar but new tracks

 

[Godzilla]

I misread the frequency charts. Seems I preferred the flatter drivers.

 

[xrk971]

I misread the frequency charts. Seems I preferred the flatter drivers.

Hey, at least you have "normal" hearing preferences

 

[vinylkid58]

female vocals on emotional jazzy track (Nora jones)

One of my favorites, although I wouldn't call this jazz: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8iM6tUEWFY&index=7&list=PLNriQSXEuhf9mZwiEEjj9fTjp4YfEq9LB

Or, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0R_rhdglVBk

Male vocals on rock track (ac/dc)

Not ac/dc, just a bit better :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfO8TcBa6I0 Shame I can't do a needle drop for this track, the LP sounds so much better it's not funny.

Here's another with a lovely distorted Epiphone Casino: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2GJU0uIMTw

jeff

 

[xrk971]

The formula of the first round was good.
female vocals on emotional jazzy track (Nora jones)
Male vocals on rock track (ac/dc)
Jazz track with bass, piano and groove

Maybe something similar but new tracks

I just got a new Nora Jones CD so I should be able to find something. I will have to enlist some help for a new hard rock clip like the AC/DC. I should be able to find a new jazz track with bass and piano. Although I think the Eric Clapton vocals this time was a worthwhile track to provide.

 

[BYRTT]

.....I think you're talking about the "another FAST option" thread. I saw his measurements, they look quite good. I didn't find any mention of equalization, so that leaves me wondering if he did anything to straighten out the Alpair.

Yes that's the thread and thinking deeper i can be wrong they un EQed because by time just get so used to the toe in/out advise from Bob Brines that i took it for given, so if he EQ or not the response shown in the thread in reality is unknown to me and now wish i hadn't mentioned it.

 

[Squeak]

+1 for ~ same number of drivers but less test-tracks.

 

[jeshi]

I just got a new Nora Jones CD so I should be able to find something. I will have to enlist some help for a new hard rock clip like the AC/DC. I should be able to find a new jazz track with bass and piano. Although I think the Eric Clapton vocals this time was a worthwhile track to provide.

A Nora Jones track would be good. The ZZtop track that jeff shared is quite good. I am not really into rock, but if you want something completely different..... I can recommend some progressive house and psy-trance tracks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hP3N7QW4Zg0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8ngrRsXzHM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oj6LhUQutsE&t=1m48s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWDYvbz-8qI&t=2m43s

but probably best to stick to the original formula

 

[wesayso]

How about a Zep track