Now you really should try some extremely beaming horn instead the ST260 to know the difference.
Worth a thousand words.
I think that various kinds of non-constant, but monotonic DI can create timbral coloring, some more obvious/unpleasant than another, but they are not very detrimental to stereo illusion. As a personal anecdote, speaker with a DI rising in a straight line from 0 dB at 100 Hz to 14 dB at 17 kHz sounds surprisingly natural in a regular furnished room, though a bit lacking in highs (well, LeCleach is going to be worse).
Non-monotonous changes, on the other hand, seem to hurt naturalness way more. E.g., Dynaudio Contour s3.4, with its strong diffraction, large vertical off-axis nulls and roller coaster DI, eats spatial clues, so voices are moved back and indistinctive. In contrast with that 14 dB DI speaker, which sounds somewhat distant, but believable, Dyns are dystinctly unnatural. The owner enjoys their "laidback presentation", though.
In the end I agree with you: most natural soundscape, both timbrally and spatially, was created by a full-range 3-way cardioid sytem with a nearly constant, gently rising directivity.
I think this is a matter of Direct Sound to Indirect Sound..... It could be the Radiation mass, which theoretically would be a 3d area extending from the driver in different ways depending directivity.
Interesting, as long as in the sweet spot, High DI should extend direct energy portion of the direct sound to room sound ratio. I have the narrow polar at the top and a big wide waveguide, as well wide enclosure some 32"-36" wide. I haven't had the system together in prep for staining, and I move slow, so its been a while, but, I most recall a sharp transition for bass... I spoke about it in my thread. I designed my system hoping to extend this transition outward from the speaker, If possible. I have no idea if it is the nearfield transition or entering radius of the fricken Direct energy radiation mass that I tried to discuss but wasn't able to get any concrete information on...
If they don't know, I can't trust them
They don't love it like I love it.
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No, I don't think this has anything to do with it. If it does, it's way beyond me. BTW, what's "defocusing the radiation"?
"At this critical distance Dc, the particle velocity of the radiated sound wave will approximately match the surface velocity of the vibrating diaphragm."
- So what?
"At this critical distance Dc, the particle velocity of the radiated sound wave will approximately match the surface velocity of the vibrating diaphragm."
- So what?
Even in nature, the high frequencies fall off more quickly
A slowly rising DI would mimic nature, a flat DI would have to have a bend somewhere, because low frequencies are omni.
Technically, Constant Directivity is a correct aspect I think. Its just not the only aspect. Smooth transitions are desirable if not constant.... Maybe second place to constant directivity is Constantly Rising DI, which denotes, no abrupt changes.
I am getting deep, I don't want to cloud your thread. It is interesting the transition that @tmuikku speaks of, I have had a similar experience though only that I noticed in a lower part of the spectrum. I think it has to do with direct vs indirect sound levels. The interesting part is that the transition is a sharp one, not a gradual one, this caught my attention in his comments as I remember it was like someone turned a switch and all of a sudden, it would seem that direct enough took completely over.No, I don't think this has anything to do with it. If it does, it's way beyond me. BTW, what's "defocusing the radiation"?
"At this critical distance Dc, the particle velocity of the radiated sound wave will approximately match the surface velocity of the vibrating diaphragm."
- So what?
There is another transition of the room gaining dominance as I move backwards and the opposite as moving closer but there was another distinct transition that was significant, much closer. I only experienced it and experimented with this aspect with my lower woofers, and at a close distance, somewhere around 1m or slightly less...
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Yeah the speaker nearfield/farfield stuff is different thing I think, easily confused. I do not know what the right terms are, but don't confuse speaker nearfield to the room "close enough" I wrote about.
Ideally, I think, one should be in between: far enough to be farfield of the speaker but close enough so that direct/reflected sound ratio in room is high enough. I think it could be possible to have too big of a speaker to a room so one never gets into the goldilock zone
or bad room with ~omni speaker. Key would be to have enough directivity and acoustic treatment so that the favored and practical listening distance happens.It is peculiar phenomenon, brain locks in, or not. I'm not sure if there is additional benefits increasing direct sound any further as long as brain can lock in. Of course I've got so little experience on this I cannot say other than what my experience is and speculate with it, what I'm observing here on my place with my system.
Do you have any other speakers than the big ones? some small studio monitors? I suggest to try and find the transition in your room with some speakers, could be very close like few feet, or quite far depending on size and acoustics. Here is how to find it easily: put on some spoken word or white noise, same signal to both speakers for strong phantom center. You should not hear either speaker, they should seem to be silent and all sound in between, a strong phantom center.
Listen the phantom image getting sharp when you are close and bit blurry when you are far. Try to identify both sounds first, you should have very clear phantom center when close enough. Listening back of the room or in another room and you should hear the blurry sound. Now move back and forth on stereo triangle center normal, try to hear the transition between this clarity and blurryness. According to Griesinger this should be on/off transition with quite short distance, like one step, and property for everyone hearing system so you should be able to hear it. I'm assuming the room and speaker system allows it to happen, which I do not know if always happens. Play with distance between speakers and toe in if necessary.
Besides this phantom center clarity/blur I perceive 2D/3D kind of effect with the transition. Sound is in front of me when beyond the transition, there is no envelopment/ spaciousness what ya call it. Stepping over the transition to the close enough zone something switchess in the brain and its like stepping into the sound. Soubd is not only in front of me but more embracing, space of the recording.
The effect is more subtle than my words let believe, but its still clear enough to spot it repeatedly once I heard it first time.
If you do find it then I think you can be sure you are always in close enough proximity and be able to concentrate listening effort on other aspects of the sound. You might find out there is no need to go any further. You might learn that you can move speaers further away in order to get into their farfield, or what ever you now can hear and affect.
edit. here is thread on another forum discussing about the thing: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...p-in-klippel-linkwitz-toole-and-geddes.29426/
Here is one Griesinger paper on it, but basically the same/similar stuff is on multiple papers. https://www.akutek.info/Papers/DG_Audibility_Direct_Sound.pdf
It is phenomenon that would explain a lot of things, like why there is followers of single fullrange driver systems, or horns, or beaming, audibility of group delay, almost anything can be explained. Good sound happens when one is close enough, and system has nice frequency response and all that, so that harmonics are coherent and brain can lock in easily. How far? depends on the system and the acoustics.
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The most coherent soundstage I've ever heard is from speakers played outside. Reflections/reverb were entirely contained in the recording. Room reflections are always an aberration of the source, though sometimes a pleasant one.
I'll bet the quality of the two variants - Flat on-axis, rising DI vs sloping down ON, near-constant DI - differs from room to room.
Small rooms benefit from higher directivity sources - this means almost all domestic listening spaces. A very small room is the space between the driver and ear in a set of headphones.
I thought when @docali was simulating for me, this was showing a similar trait, seems to be a function of directivity, 200 and 4khz, on this example. Seems the higher frequency which likely has higher directivity, causes the energy to protrude from the horn differently. The spl at the listening position isn't matched, but, definitely some learning here.
Nothing can explain that, believe me
I started my DIY journey with fullranges many years back and after a while it just sounded unbearable.
In my humble opinion more people truly interested in the perception of sound should read Griesinger's papers (just scroll down on his home page).
As he explains how we can get or keep clarity but still enjoy qualities like spaciousness and envelopment.
Us DIY nuts that want more can get it by making sure the room + speakers work together.
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I had them too, and liked it, just couldn't play loud enough. About only audio related advantage with fullrange drivers is "coherency", and Griesinger says its on/off for perception, and I perceive it with multiway speaker, so there goes any advantage point source / fullrange systems have, in my simplified thinkinNothing can explain that, believe me
I started my DIY journey with fullranges many years back and after a while it just sounded unbearable.