I was wondering that myself....
zman, that is a good question. The main arrays are going to have 30 -36 drivers on each channel. I would guess that 150 watts each side at a minimum, but that is only a guess.
They say the difference between a 40 watt amp and 80 watts is 3 dB, but I think there is much more to it then that. I am speculating that the higher powered amps will have better driver control, esp with complex material. Actually, higher "current" might be more important. All this could be Hi-Fi hyper bull too.
What I do know, is my Cheap and Cheerful arrays play louder then Avebury through my Chip Amps, as the arrays are more sensitive. But there is some "grain" I hear at these louder levels. Maybe I am driving things to hard. It could even be a built in characteristic of the Amps, the speakers, or the source for that matter.
My goal with the Amp is to have enough power to not clip the waveform. Hopefully, I can find one that has the sound I like. I have heard many "reference" quality amps I did not like.
As I can not listen to any of the amps I am looking into, it is going to be a leap of faith. The good thing about the Ncore, is I am sure I could sell them for minimal loss if I do not like them.
Of course if I felt really adventurous, I could buy the VTA ST-120 KIT from tubes4hifi and try something I have never done before. Not sure about 60 watts/channel, yet maybe I would like the "smooth" clipping of tubes.
Allen
zman, that is a good question. The main arrays are going to have 30 -36 drivers on each channel. I would guess that 150 watts each side at a minimum, but that is only a guess.
They say the difference between a 40 watt amp and 80 watts is 3 dB, but I think there is much more to it then that. I am speculating that the higher powered amps will have better driver control, esp with complex material. Actually, higher "current" might be more important. All this could be Hi-Fi hyper bull too.
What I do know, is my Cheap and Cheerful arrays play louder then Avebury through my Chip Amps, as the arrays are more sensitive. But there is some "grain" I hear at these louder levels. Maybe I am driving things to hard. It could even be a built in characteristic of the Amps, the speakers, or the source for that matter.
My goal with the Amp is to have enough power to not clip the waveform. Hopefully, I can find one that has the sound I like. I have heard many "reference" quality amps I did not like.
As I can not listen to any of the amps I am looking into, it is going to be a leap of faith. The good thing about the Ncore, is I am sure I could sell them for minimal loss if I do not like them. Of course if I felt really adventurous, I could buy the VTA ST-120 KIT from tubes4hifi and try something I have never done before. Not sure about 60 watts/channel, yet maybe I would like the "smooth" clipping of tubes.
Allen
Allen,
You can take a look at this amp:
Parallel-86: High-power composite amplifier achieving 0.00012 % THD.
Designed by diyAudio member Tomchr - from what I have read, the Modulus 86 is very neutral sounding and well regarded. You can get in touch with Tom and find out if default or bridged configurations will have enough power for your application. Probably will be cheaper than the Ncore and no import duties. Btw, Tom did a listening comparison vs the Ncore and he like his amps more (of course
). The amp is well documented and Tom responds to queries, probably worth investigating. I have a pair of Mod 86 boards, but need to populate them - hope to get them done before Christmas.
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Thanks, jojip
Awesome, a finite number! Actually, that is not bad for all You got.
jojip, I read through some of your impressions of Ncore on the hypex Ncore thread. It sounds like You are still working on getting your build dialed in. What Amps are You upgrading from?
I dont have experience with a lot of different amps. But what i could compare against is a very competent Marantz amp and an ATI2002. The ncore is clearly better to my ears. I do trust that the excellent measurements make ncore an honest transparent amp. Then there is the excellent power reserve for a very compact size and efficiency.
I hope to listen to some pass amps, Mod-86 and lazy cat's FirstOne amps at some point. For now, i couldnt have been happier with my purchase and assembly of Hypex amps.
There is the rub...
Good point, Dave
An observation I have made reviewing listening impressions of different amps, is people write more passionately about the singular designs. Once one starts cascading output devices to acquire more power, the music starts to get compromised. Not sure if this applies to Class-D, as that is a completely different design?
So the question is, how far can one go in terms of power, with one output device Single Ended or Two in Push Pull? Are there quality output devices capable of this? Let the research begin...
The VTA ST-120 KIT qualities at 60 watts/channel
My vintage SAE 2100 qualifies at 100 watts/channel (not the best output devices available for restoration)
I wonder how well these singular designs do with complex source material? As I am bi-amping the bass, odds play more in my favor...
Good point, Dave
An observation I have made reviewing listening impressions of different amps, is people write more passionately about the singular designs. Once one starts cascading output devices to acquire more power, the music starts to get compromised. Not sure if this applies to Class-D,
as that is a completely different design?So the question is, how far can one go in terms of power, with one output device Single Ended or Two in Push Pull? Are there quality output devices capable of this? Let the research begin...
The VTA ST-120 KIT qualities at 60 watts/channel
My vintage SAE 2100 qualifies at 100 watts/channel (not the best output devices available for restoration
)I wonder how well these singular designs do with complex source material? As I am bi-amping the bass, odds play more in my favor...
Just wanted to share my experience which is based on drivers mounted in open baffle and played without any EQ
Out of TG9, TC9, Aura NS3 (cheap ones), Visaton FRs 8m and Faital 3Fe20 the Faitals were supreme.
Vifas ARE different in sound despite wat can be read - i prefered the glassfiber cones but could live happy with any of the 2.
The Visatons sounded boring and the Auras just as you'd expect a 5 dollar driver to sound
The Faitals were the only ones i'd consider
Good luck!
/pontus
Out of TG9, TC9, Aura NS3 (cheap ones), Visaton FRs 8m and Faital 3Fe20 the Faitals were supreme.
Vifas ARE different in sound despite wat can be read - i prefered the glassfiber cones but could live happy with any of the 2.
The Visatons sounded boring and the Auras just as you'd expect a 5 dollar driver to sound
The Faitals were the only ones i'd consider
Good luck!
/pontus
According to some research I did, the new version of this Faital driver has a ceramic magnet, doesn't really have the efficiency that is advertised and is designed to be rear mounted, and is actually very difficult to front mount. Personally I wouldn't buy a driver that has any trouble being front mounted; both for replacement and to minimize cavity effect.
Allen, did you seen the newly developed B&O speakers?
With a nice description of the possibilities of it's steering mechanism: B&O Tech: What is “Beam Width Control”? earfluff and eyecandy
Maybe the answer is 3 rows (in a rounded triangle shape) of 25+ drivers each with separate DSP on the 3 columns being able to steer from Omni to highly directional sound.
With 75 drivers in each enclosure I think the low end is covered as well...
It would still be cheaper to make than buying the Beolab 90! All Aspiring enough for you? Lets do the math, 150x 10F = $$$$
With a nice description of the possibilities of it's steering mechanism: B&O Tech: What is “Beam Width Control”? earfluff and eyecandy
Maybe the answer is 3 rows (in a rounded triangle shape) of 25+ drivers each with separate DSP on the 3 columns being able to steer from Omni to highly directional sound.
With 75 drivers in each enclosure I think the low end is covered as well
...It would still be cheaper to make than buying the Beolab 90! All Aspiring enough for you? Lets do the math, 150x 10F = $$$$
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I can t help but think that it is brave to order $$$ in a mountain of FF85wk or other decent drivers, for something unproven. I was at a hifi show recently and was amazed by the bigger Harbeth speakers being demo'd. Not arrays, but so very proven and a similar investment. I do like the sense of adventure but considering the investment I'd rather let someone else make it work first...
Thanks for your input everyone!
I have been reading all your posts, but have not had the time to reply. Thankfully, the landscaping season is almost done and on top of that, I am sleeping a lot better due to the cooler temps.
Thanks, Pnotus. All these drivers are in the same price class, so this is a good comparison. Unfortunately, as Bob mentioned, the new version of this driver (3Fe25) is a very different design. I would be interested in the older model if I can source it somewhere...
Unfortunately, the Techonic drivers suffer the same flaw. But, in the end, it is going to come down what I like best in terms of sound. Rear mounting headaches and having to engineer a removable front baffle will have to be overcome. In all honesty, none of the drivers I am considering have ideal mounting. The best designed drivers for this project is the Celestion AN series, and at the moment, I have not included them...
Thanks, Octavia. I would like something with more power of this project, however, I am considering the SMSL SA60 to replace the Sure boards for the multi-way build I am doing for my brother. I like that the SMSL's are completed, exchangeable (if needed), units. Now that my brother lives in Texas (a very long way from me), I need something he can "drop in" in case he has one of his "accidents"
Wow, Bose 901 or Avantgarde at the push of the button! Omni for video games and Constant Directivity for Audio/Video editing.
I like the aesthetics of the B&O enclosures (although too big for my room), but not sure on the shapes in terms of acoustics, defractions, and interference.
My recent listening adventures is leading me to explore dispersion patterns more, especially in regards to the highs. More on that, next post...
I have been reading all your posts, but have not had the time to reply. Thankfully, the landscaping season is almost done and on top of that, I am sleeping a lot better due to the cooler temps.
Thanks, Pnotus. All these drivers are in the same price class, so this is a good comparison. Unfortunately, as Bob mentioned, the new version of this driver (3Fe25) is a very different design. I would be interested in the older model if I can source it somewhere...
Unfortunately, the Techonic drivers suffer the same flaw.
But, in the end, it is going to come down what I like best in terms of sound. Rear mounting headaches and having to engineer a removable front baffle will have to be overcome. In all honesty, none of the drivers I am considering have ideal mounting. The best designed drivers for this project is the Celestion AN series, and at the moment, I have not included them...Thanks, Octavia. I would like something with more power of this project, however, I am considering the SMSL SA60 to replace the Sure boards for the multi-way build I am doing for my brother. I like that the SMSL's are completed, exchangeable (if needed), units. Now that my brother lives in Texas (a very long way from me), I need something he can "drop in" in case he has one of his "accidents"
Allen, did you seen the newly developed B&O speakers?
Maybe the answer is 3 rows (in a rounded triangle shape) of 25+ drivers each with separate DSP on the 3 columns being able to steer from Omni to highly directional sound.
With 75 drivers in each enclosure I think the low end is covered as well
Wow, Bose 901 or Avantgarde at the push of the button! Omni for video games and Constant Directivity for Audio/Video editing.
I like the aesthetics of the B&O enclosures (although too big for my room), but not sure on the shapes in terms of acoustics, defractions, and interference.
My recent listening adventures is leading me to explore dispersion patterns more, especially in regards to the highs. More on that, next post...
Soap Box time...
Are You ready? Here goes...
There is a Greatness inside each one of us that is so unique that only You have the ability to give to others. The challenge might be pursuing what we think is our greatness to find our true Greatness.
Unused Greatness will eat at your soul and fill your life with wonderment and regrets of "would a" should a" and "could a".
I could fail, but at least I know I tried and would never have to wonder. I believe also, that each failure brings us one step closer to success, which is worth any material investment I put forth. You could say I fail forward to success.
So, talaerts, when was the last time someone told You how great You are? Do not believe the lie that You are not great!
Allen
PS: This concept is proven: IDS, Wesayso's Two Towers, and my very own NSB "Cheap and Cheerfuls"...
Are You ready? Here goes...
There is a Greatness inside each one of us that is so unique that only You have the ability to give to others. The challenge might be pursuing what we think is our greatness to find our true Greatness.
Unused Greatness will eat at your soul and fill your life with wonderment and regrets of "would a" should a" and "could a".
I could fail, but at least I know I tried and would never have to wonder. I believe also, that each failure brings us one step closer to success, which is worth any material investment I put forth. You could say I fail forward to success.
So, talaerts, when was the last time someone told You how great You are? Do not believe the lie that You are not great!
Allen
PS: This concept is proven: IDS, Wesayso's Two Towers, and my very own NSB "Cheap and Cheerfuls"...
Three speakers set up for comparison...
Eeeek, time is running out, I hope I can write some of my adventures before heading off to work...
Recently, I helped my Mum and Dad get ready to move to Texas to be closer to my brother's family. During that adventure I acquired the Pioneer CS-605 4-way speakers I grew up with...
The other two systems are of course the Cheap and Cheerful Arrays and the Avebury.
For this comparison, I spent a couple of nights with each system listening and creating convolution DSP FIR files to get the most out of them. I used the Dayton subs with the Pioneers and Arrays. (It is pretty funny that the Pioneers start to roll off at 60 Hz) I would like to try the Sub with Avebury also, but this time I was seeing how far I could take it as a full-ranger. Instead of using Holm response as feed back for Equalization, I used TrueRTA, which gave me instant feedback as I was tweaking. I only have the 1/3 octave version of this software as the higher resolution upgrades cost a lot, but it still works great when using the tone generator. I could see enough with it to find some reflective tone harmonics I need to address with my room!
What I can say overall, with all three systems, is it is amazing what You can hear when You get rid of some of the stuff that is not meant to be there in the first place. I mainly focused on peaks and only brought up wide valleys with dips. Some of the peaks are the drivers themselves and some are room induced, esp too much room gain with certain bass frequencies. A huge surprise for me was using a phase coherent cross-over between the mains and sub-woofers. At first it sounds naked and subdued, because I am used to that "kuthumpoff" bass normally has. The best way to describe it now, is I have "felt" mid-range. That bass drum hits and I feel it at the same time. Gun shots in Movies are freaky real! This makes what I thought was "fast" bass through the Avebury seem slow...
Man oh Man, I ran out of time. I will finish up at my next possible convenience.
Allen
Eeeek, time is running out, I hope I can write some of my adventures before heading off to work...
Recently, I helped my Mum and Dad get ready to move to Texas to be closer to my brother's family. During that adventure I acquired the Pioneer CS-605 4-way speakers I grew up with...
The other two systems are of course the Cheap and Cheerful Arrays and the Avebury.
For this comparison, I spent a couple of nights with each system listening and creating convolution DSP FIR files to get the most out of them. I used the Dayton subs with the Pioneers and Arrays. (It is pretty funny that the Pioneers start to roll off at 60 Hz) I would like to try the Sub with Avebury also, but this time I was seeing how far I could take it as a full-ranger. Instead of using Holm response as feed back for Equalization, I used TrueRTA, which gave me instant feedback as I was tweaking. I only have the 1/3 octave version of this software as the higher resolution upgrades cost a lot, but it still works great when using the tone generator. I could see enough with it to find some reflective tone harmonics I need to address with my room!
What I can say overall, with all three systems, is it is amazing what You can hear when You get rid of some of the stuff that is not meant to be there in the first place. I mainly focused on peaks and only brought up wide valleys with dips. Some of the peaks are the drivers themselves and some are room induced, esp too much room gain with certain bass frequencies. A huge surprise for me was using a phase coherent cross-over between the mains and sub-woofers. At first it sounds naked and subdued, because I am used to that "kuthumpoff" bass normally has. The best way to describe it now, is I have "felt" mid-range. That bass drum hits and I feel it at the same time. Gun shots in Movies are freaky real! This makes what I thought was "fast" bass through the Avebury seem slow...
Man oh Man, I ran out of time. I will finish up at my next possible convenience.
Allen
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Hmm.. the one I find at suppliers is the same as i bought and used.
This:
Faital Pro 3Fe25 | Bredbands högtalarelement med ferrit magnet - supersonic
Is this outdated? If so - can anyone point me towards the new driver and specs? Was hoping to build an array using that driver
/Pontus
I like what I read here... seems you're on your way to discovering what time coherency does for sound. A concept that seems to escape quite a few people... I am sold, but you knew that already
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