Someone did. And if you look closely at XRK's measures (without an anechoic chamber one has togive sme latitude to the accuracy) they agree fairly closely with these,
dave
PS: personally i think that if you are going to XO these you want to stick to sealed. And in this case you are not going low enuff vented to not have to XO.
Attachments
Still very much interested in the Tectonics - Madisound does not carry those...
I can't believe the TC9 wasn't added...
TC9 is cheaper at Parts-Express...
I have not quite acquired enough stuff on my Parts-express order for the free shipping.
I need to look over my Buffalo III build and make sure I am not leaving anything out...Here is my current plan: (In no particular order)
1 - Buy at least one additional I/V output stage for the Buffalo III to run that 4 channel for the FAST option. I can start out using my Realtek 8 channel DAC. I really want to spend some time with these drivers to see what I like best.
2 - Contact Ken Ealey to have my SAE 2100 power amp restored. This is a classic old school 100 watt class A/B amp. It will be good using with the Avebury for the FAST option. In the meantime, I have a couple of 40 watt Sure class D amps, but they are power limited. The SAE does have good resale, esp restored, if I decide it is not what I want.
3 - Install new heat on demand hot water system for my house. The Bocsh AquaStar unit I have, has turned out to be a real lemon, and I want it replaced before winter. I am lucky I got 7 years out of this unit, esp considering it froze two winters ago. The wear and tear is really showing on it now, so I am researching a replacement. I will have this replaced before starting to buy the drivers for the arrays. Thankfully, the driver blow outs will keep me busy for while.
4 - Some regular vehicle repairs, which Thankfully are not near as pricey as the water system above.
On the work side, I have the Avebury's to finish, and who knows, I may prefer them with one of these smaller full-rangers in a FAST.
I also have my old open baffle system that I am reworking for my brother's home Theatre system.
So I have plenty to do while I am choosing the drivers for this system.
Allen
This is a bit OT but since you brought it up and it's your thread...
It is a difficult technology to do right for longevity and low cost of ownership. There is a new technology in on demand water heaters that is more efficient and more reliable - uses completely new technology. Big chains like Costco, McD, Hilton, etc are embracing this new on demand (the only one designed and built in the U.S.) - the company is called Intellihot - check it out. I personally know it to be a superior product compared to all else out there.
http://www.intellihot.com/residential/
A brief off topic detour...
Thanks X,
Sorry for the detour everyone...
But I am glad I posted my off topic dilemma, as I have not been impressed by the Takagi, Rinnai, or other big box store brands... I like the Steibel electric units but they take a lot of amperage. I do not think my existing 200 amp service could keep up, esp in winter, with furnace, lights, shop tools and audio/video systems all running at the same time...
I downloaded and glanced over the manual for the Intellihot residential units; these look promising. Stainless steel heat exchanger with 15 year warranty (5 years on other parts) caught my attention. Made in the USA is a plus. Really like the idea of a built in recirculating system, as that could save me over $600, as I was planning on installing some smaller Steibel electrical units on my two bathrooms that have long pipe runs. I will have to sweat some copper, but that is something I can do. Closest Rep for these is 4 1/2 hours away in Minnesota,that could be a problem. My furnace guy is as passionate at his work as we are about audio and is fully licensed, so I will need to call Intellihot to see what their warranty requirements are.
Really strange that Intellihot did not come up on any of my searches, what is the deal with that?
I am almost afraid to know how much one of these costs, but this design does kill three birds with one stone, so I can stretch a little more for it...
...May delay acquiring drivers for the arrays. Which brings us back on topic...
Thanks X,
Sorry for the detour everyone...
But I am glad I posted my off topic dilemma, as I have not been impressed by the Takagi, Rinnai, or other big box store brands... I like the Steibel electric units but they take a lot of amperage. I do not think my existing 200 amp service could keep up, esp in winter, with furnace, lights, shop tools and audio/video systems all running at the same time...
I downloaded and glanced over the manual for the Intellihot residential units; these look promising. Stainless steel heat exchanger with 15 year warranty (5 years on other parts) caught my attention. Made in the USA is a plus. Really like the idea of a built in recirculating system, as that could save me over $600, as I was planning on installing some smaller Steibel electrical units on my two bathrooms that have long pipe runs. I will have to sweat some copper, but that is something I can do. Closest Rep for these is 4 1/2 hours away in Minnesota,
that could be a problem. My furnace guy is as passionate at his work as we are about audio and is fully licensed, so I will need to call Intellihot to see what their warranty requirements are. Really strange that Intellihot did not come up on any of my searches, what is the deal with that?
I am almost afraid to know how much one of these costs, but this design does kill three birds with one stone, so I can stretch a little more for it...
...May delay acquiring drivers for the arrays.
Which brings us back on topic...
Thanks X,
Sorry for the detour everyone...
But I am glad I posted my off topic dilemma, as I have not been impressed by the Takagi, Rinnai, or other big box store brands... I like the Steibel electric units but they take a lot of amperage. I do not think my existing 200 amp service could keep up, esp in winter, with furnace, lights, shop tools and audio/video systems all running at the same time...
I downloaded and glanced over the manual for the Intellihot residential units; these look promising. Stainless steel heat exchanger with 15 year warranty (5 years on other parts) caught my attention. Made in the USA is a plus. Really like the idea of a built in recirculating system, as that could save me over $600, as I was planning on installing some smaller Steibel electrical units on my two bathrooms that have long pipe runs. I will have to sweat some copper, but that is something I can do. Closest Rep for these is 4 1/2 hours away in Minnesota,
Really strange that Intellihot did not come up on any of my searches, what is the deal with that?
I am almost afraid to know how much one of these costs, but this design does kill three birds with one stone, so I can stretch a little more for it...
...May delay acquiring drivers for the arrays.
They are primarily designed for commercial market where they can parallize for more capacity as water boiler replacements for large buildings and high rises. A six pack achieves 1.5MBtu and replaces a boiler room. They are new company so could be reason why not on web searches yet. The heat exchanger is the only one with a patented means to never have scale buildup. It is computerized with smarts so it learns your usage patterns and has hot water waiting at the spigot for morning showers etc.
Aspiring to do something that has not been done...
In all honesty, I do not think there is nothing for me to aspire with a TC9 array build. Wesayso's "Two Towers" is the Aspiring Array project with them. I have not seen anyone design and continue to refine a TC9 array as passionately as Wesayso has with his Towers. In my mind, if there is a market for an array with the TC9, Wesayso has earned it. I see the same passion in Derek with his Silk BMR's and AILA system. Likewise, Dave and Chrisb have their 'Ken lines...
One of the challenges I have being a highly creative, artistic person, is I am not interested in doing what has already been done. That is like drawing still lifes in high school art class. It was good to learn the skill of observation, but once I knew I could do it, I wanted to learn new things. My first speaker build was my 777 open baffle system. It uses all the wrong drivers for that application and was completely tuned by ear, but they have a large, live sound which many enjoyed. My brother still really enjoys them, which is why I am reworking them for him. That system was pure passion, like a six year old with the 64 color BIG Box of Crayola Crowns. After taking that system as far as I thought I could (I know better now), I built the Avebury system to get a feel for what a seasoned speaker designer could do. I learned a lot about proper speaker cabinet construction, wiring, damping materials and measurements. I put my own flair into them with the diffusion blocks (my avatar). The Avebury was my "observation" project. Now, for this project: The All Aspiring Array, I would like to combine the "passion" of the 777 system with the "skill" of the Avebury system.
Can I "better" a TC9 array? Hard to say. I have not heard a TC9 array. I am ordering a pair of TC9's to compare to the other drivers, including a pair of my NSB drivers. Wesayso has set a new bar for the TC9. Wesayso's Array is a true full-range array, and that in itself, gives that system an edge. I do not think the Fostex has the capacity to be run all the way down to 30 Hz. The 10F might be able to go there. We will see as this adventure unfolds. My gut is telling me, I might be able to get more refined upper mids and highs, but is it going to be worth the trade off in crossing to Subs at 80 Hz or a FAST at 250 Hz? What ever I end up with, it will be different then both Wesayso's "Two Towers" and Derek's "AILA" system. And I think it will be equally as amazing in its uniqueness...
Allen
I can't believe the TC9 wasn't added
In all honesty, I do not think there is nothing for me to aspire with a TC9 array build. Wesayso's "Two Towers" is the Aspiring Array project with them. I have not seen anyone design and continue to refine a TC9 array as passionately as Wesayso has with his Towers. In my mind, if there is a market for an array with the TC9, Wesayso has earned it. I see the same passion in Derek with his Silk BMR's and AILA system. Likewise, Dave and Chrisb have their 'Ken lines...
One of the challenges I have being a highly creative, artistic person, is I am not interested in doing what has already been done. That is like drawing still lifes in high school art class. It was good to learn the skill of observation, but once I knew I could do it, I wanted to learn new things. My first speaker build was my 777 open baffle system. It uses all the wrong drivers for that application and was completely tuned by ear, but they have a large, live sound which many enjoyed. My brother still really enjoys them, which is why I am reworking them for him. That system was pure passion, like a six year old with the 64 color BIG Box of Crayola Crowns.
After taking that system as far as I thought I could (I know better now), I built the Avebury system to get a feel for what a seasoned speaker designer could do. I learned a lot about proper speaker cabinet construction, wiring, damping materials and measurements. I put my own flair into them with the diffusion blocks (my avatar). The Avebury was my "observation" project. Now, for this project: The All Aspiring Array, I would like to combine the "passion" of the 777 system with the "skill" of the Avebury system. Can I "better" a TC9 array? Hard to say. I have not heard a TC9 array. I am ordering a pair of TC9's to compare to the other drivers, including a pair of my NSB drivers. Wesayso has set a new bar for the TC9. Wesayso's Array is a true full-range array, and that in itself, gives that system an edge. I do not think the Fostex has the capacity to be run all the way down to 30 Hz. The 10F might be able to go there. We will see as this adventure unfolds. My gut is telling me, I might be able to get more refined upper mids and highs, but is it going to be worth the trade off in crossing to Subs at 80 Hz or a FAST at 250 Hz? What ever I end up with, it will be different then both Wesayso's "Two Towers" and Derek's "AILA" system. And I think it will be equally as amazing in its uniqueness...
Allen
I stuffed the ports on all of my "store bought" speakers also. Mids sounded better to me because the bass was more "connected" to it with the ports stuffed and the bass EQed up a little...
Hang in there, everyone...
X, You seem pretty familiar with these. I am thinking either You own one, You install or maintain them, or the place where You work has them. How many years should I expect out of one of these units. The "average" tankless system lasts from 7 to 10 years (which really is not very good).
It seems Intellihot is geared for a commercial market, which is why they did not show up during my searches. This industrial quality could be just what I have been looking for...
X, You seem pretty familiar with these. I am thinking either You own one, You install or maintain them, or the place where You work has them. How many years should I expect out of one of these units. The "average" tankless system lasts from 7 to 10 years (which really is not very good).
It seems Intellihot is geared for a commercial market, which is why they did not show up during my searches. This industrial quality could be just what I have been looking for...
Thanks for the kind words Allen... I'm sure you'll find a way to your specific audio nirvana. I know I'm not there yet but I'm having a blast getting there. So far I'm very pleased with the current status and things will improve, I'm sure.
For your configuration you have a lot of things to consider. But that might also depend on final driver choice. So I'd suggest getting that out of the way first, then look at the configuration you want/should end up with.
If you plan on using EQ or FIR filters I'd suggest to work that into the driver test as well.
My choices took me a long time to figure out, After all, there are always compromises to be made. But once chosen I plan to get the most out of it and I'm sure you will too!
No matter if you go for FAST or full range, I'd advise against ported for the driver playing the high notes. But aperiodic might not be such a bad idea, depending on the final choice of arrangement. My choice for sealed was a basic requirement for what I intended to do.
First put the drivers to the test, reflect on that and I'm sure your path will be determined after that. Can't wait to see what you end up with.
For your configuration you have a lot of things to consider. But that might also depend on final driver choice. So I'd suggest getting that out of the way first, then look at the configuration you want/should end up with.
If you plan on using EQ or FIR filters I'd suggest to work that into the driver test as well.
My choices took me a long time to figure out, After all, there are always compromises to be made. But once chosen I plan to get the most out of it and I'm sure you will too!
No matter if you go for FAST or full range, I'd advise against ported for the driver playing the high notes. But aperiodic might not be such a bad idea, depending on the final choice of arrangement. My choice for sealed was a basic requirement for what I intended to do.
First put the drivers to the test, reflect on that and I'm sure your path will be determined after that. Can't wait to see what you end up with.
Fostex and 10F arrive...
My first impression:
Cute!
This happens a lot to me when I buy stuff online. Things end up being bigger or smaller then the photos online give the impression of. In this case, these seem small, but I am used to my Fostex FF225w and Alpair 12. But this is good, small is what we want for this project...
I can say, You get a lot more "material"/$$ when buying sub-woofers
When considering price, I think You are getting a lot with the Fostex. A strong, heavy ferrite motor, gold plated terminals, mounting hardware and gasket, and an overall nice fit and finish given the cost effective materials used. It is actually pretty funny handling such a small driver with such an over sized, heavy magnet. I was concerned about the stamped steel basket, (esp given my experience with the larger FF225) but now handling it in person, it is pretty solid given the size of this driver, and Fostex did round over the front bezel edge nicely.
With the 10F, I can sum up it's build quality in one word: Stealth
It is actually pretty hard getting a good photo of the 10F, because everything except the magnet is black! From a distance, it is hard to see what one is paying for with this driver. In fact, once these are mounted in a cabinet, they will "disappear" and not really draw attention to themselves. The Fostex, on the other hand has a very distinctive look.
The following posts are close-ups between the two...
My first impression:
Cute!
This happens a lot to me when I buy stuff online. Things end up being bigger or smaller then the photos online give the impression of. In this case, these seem small, but I am used to my Fostex FF225w and Alpair 12. But this is good, small is what we want for this project...
I can say, You get a lot more "material"/$$ when buying sub-woofers
When considering price, I think You are getting a lot with the Fostex. A strong, heavy ferrite motor, gold plated terminals, mounting hardware and gasket, and an overall nice fit and finish given the cost effective materials used. It is actually pretty funny handling such a small driver with such an over sized, heavy magnet. I was concerned about the stamped steel basket, (esp given my experience with the larger FF225) but now handling it in person, it is pretty solid given the size of this driver, and Fostex did round over the front bezel edge nicely.
With the 10F, I can sum up it's build quality in one word: Stealth
It is actually pretty hard getting a good photo of the 10F, because everything except the magnet is black! From a distance, it is hard to see what one is paying for with this driver. In fact, once these are mounted in a cabinet, they will "disappear" and not really draw attention to themselves. The Fostex, on the other hand has a very distinctive look.
The following posts are close-ups between the two...
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Baskets and Magnets...
Both these drivers have a good Bl to Mms ratio, so it is going to be interesting to see how they compare. Fostex took the value approach and ScanSpeak went all out.
The 10F for sure has a better design for rebating the driver on the front of a baffle and allows more cone venting. As the bezel is solid cast aluminum, I think I can easily cut off a little on each side and truncate these for closer driver spacing. Also note the venting for the voice coil on this driver.
I can flush mount the Fostex also, as I have more room then a thought I did. The bezel is so thin as well is the black rim around the driver, that I am not sure if this is going to cause diffraction issues or not. I will try them flush mounted as is and compare that with an additional baffle cover over the bezel and see if anything changes in measurements or listening.
I prefer to mount the drivers directly to the cabinets, as I see some of the challenges Wesayso and others have had, back mounting their drivers, then trying to seal the baffles to the main cabinets. I want to try to avoid that if I can. I know with the 10F, I can avoid that for sure; the Fostex, I will not know without experimentation...
Both these drivers have a good Bl to Mms ratio, so it is going to be interesting to see how they compare. Fostex took the value approach and ScanSpeak went all out.
The 10F for sure has a better design for rebating the driver on the front of a baffle and allows more cone venting. As the bezel is solid cast aluminum, I think I can easily cut off a little on each side and truncate these for closer driver spacing. Also note the venting for the voice coil on this driver.
I can flush mount the Fostex also, as I have more room then a thought I did. The bezel is so thin as well is the black rim around the driver, that I am not sure if this is going to cause diffraction issues or not. I will try them flush mounted as is and compare that with an additional baffle cover over the bezel and see if anything changes in measurements or listening.
I prefer to mount the drivers directly to the cabinets, as I see some of the challenges Wesayso and others have had, back mounting their drivers, then trying to seal the baffles to the main cabinets. I want to try to avoid that if I can. I know with the 10F, I can avoid that for sure; the Fostex, I will not know without experimentation...
Attachments
Thanks for the photos and descriptions. I have the FF105WK and was also impressed by its build quality and substantial weight magnet. It is also well packaged and comes bagged inside a box with instructions/data sheet. My 10F came in a bulk foam tray that looks like it is used for holding Si wafers and wrapped in plastic cling wrap - no box like yours.
Cones...
The comparison between cones is an interesting one, as these are so different. It is going to be fun listening to both to see what they do.
All and all, I think both of these drivers have a lot of potential. Naturally, my wallet is rooting for the Fostex, but the Furniture Designer in me likes the 10F.
I am designing stack-able, pentagon sealed enclosures for these drivers. The pentagon dimensions will be the same, but I will vary the length to get the proper volume for each driver. That way, all the drivers have the same baffle width. This also allows me to "stack" the other two drivers I am comparing (The TC9 and Tectonics) later on. So what I will end up with is a weird four driver array of different drivers with different driver spacing, so I can compare them individually on the fly at the same listening distance. The only variable will be listening height, but I can "swap" segments when things get critical.
The Fostex I will design for a volume of 6.245 liters (Q 0.58)
The 10F - 1.014 liters (Q 0.50)
(based off of Dave's Sims)
I am hoping to get some boxes up and running this week-end, so I can at the very least get these broken in...
Got a couple of 13-15 hour shifts to get through first... It does get hard and tiring at times, but I am really glad I have work! 
Allen
The comparison between cones is an interesting one, as these are so different. It is going to be fun listening to both to see what they do.
All and all, I think both of these drivers have a lot of potential. Naturally, my wallet is rooting for the Fostex, but the Furniture Designer in me likes the 10F.
I am designing stack-able, pentagon sealed enclosures for these drivers. The pentagon dimensions will be the same, but I will vary the length to get the proper volume for each driver. That way, all the drivers have the same baffle width. This also allows me to "stack" the other two drivers I am comparing (The TC9 and Tectonics) later on. So what I will end up with is a weird four driver array of different drivers with different driver spacing, so I can compare them individually on the fly at the same listening distance. The only variable will be listening height, but I can "swap" segments when things get critical.
The Fostex I will design for a volume of 6.245 liters (Q 0.58)
The 10F - 1.014 liters (Q 0.50)
(based off of Dave's Sims)
I am hoping to get some boxes up and running this week-end, so I can at the very least get these broken in...
Got a couple of 13-15 hour shifts to get through first...
It does get hard and tiring at times, but I am really glad I have work! Allen
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Did You get your 10F's from Madisound?
The ScanSpeak box is effective, but not as much care as Fostex does with theirs. No extras either. This is as if to almost say "No gimmicks needed, it is what it is"
We will see if ScanSpeak is all that or not...
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