Mine were from Madisound as well. I got the TG9FD's, 10F's and FF105wk's all at same time and they were all stuffed in one box with a little Kraft paper and bubble wrap in between the different drivers. It made for a compact shipment.
I just got some new toys delivered today as well: JBL LSR305 monitors. I will review them in another thread.
I just got some new toys delivered today as well: JBL LSR305 monitors. I will review them in another thread.
Well, I didn't read all 23 pages of comments, so I hope I'm not being redundant here, but I'll share some of my views.
Aura drivers would be pretty good but they have foam surrounds which may disintegrate after a decade or so. For good off axis response I wouldn't go bigger than "3.5 inch" (the cone of which is actually more like 2.5 inch). To reach down to 80HZ with 24 drivers on a side I wouldn't go any smaller than 3 inch.
Xmax is pretty important to a point, but more than about 3mm seems a waste to me since doppler frequency modulation is likely to become audible when the same cone putting out 80HZ is also putting out all the high frequencies. Some drivers with extra large Xmax also have significant "cavity effect" on the front side because the surround suspension sticks out so far...
Personally I'd go with either the Peerless TG9 (if you can stand the light gray cone color) or the Vifa TC9, and have a special brass mounting panel made (.25 inch thick) so they can all be front mounted and have good airflow out the back. Oh and forget any metal cone drivers since they all have severe resonances that will ring even if you actively EQ them. Be very suspicious of any published info that says otherwise.
Any array system of this general type of coarse needs significant active EQ to be acoustically "flat", and from there I'd build a 4 section Baxandall tone control circuit to further optimize the listening experience.
If you want to get fancy, use some variation of corinthian columbs made of wood as the cabinet, part cuz they look cool, and part because they could be real optimal acoustically inside and out. The Audiocyclopedia shows that mounting a driver on the surface of a sphere is minimally resonant. You'd still need to break up and dampen the end to end internal of the cabinet, but on the horizontal axis, a columb could be the best. Also, theory suggests that having the drivers go all the way floor to ceiling will be significantly better than if there's a significant gap at either end. Hope this helps.
Aura drivers would be pretty good but they have foam surrounds which may disintegrate after a decade or so. For good off axis response I wouldn't go bigger than "3.5 inch" (the cone of which is actually more like 2.5 inch). To reach down to 80HZ with 24 drivers on a side I wouldn't go any smaller than 3 inch.
Xmax is pretty important to a point, but more than about 3mm seems a waste to me since doppler frequency modulation is likely to become audible when the same cone putting out 80HZ is also putting out all the high frequencies. Some drivers with extra large Xmax also have significant "cavity effect" on the front side because the surround suspension sticks out so far...
Personally I'd go with either the Peerless TG9 (if you can stand the light gray cone color) or the Vifa TC9, and have a special brass mounting panel made (.25 inch thick) so they can all be front mounted and have good airflow out the back. Oh and forget any metal cone drivers since they all have severe resonances that will ring even if you actively EQ them. Be very suspicious of any published info that says otherwise.
Any array system of this general type of coarse needs significant active EQ to be acoustically "flat", and from there I'd build a 4 section Baxandall tone control circuit to further optimize the listening experience.
If you want to get fancy, use some variation of corinthian columbs made of wood as the cabinet, part cuz they look cool, and part because they could be real optimal acoustically inside and out. The Audiocyclopedia shows that mounting a driver on the surface of a sphere is minimally resonant. You'd still need to break up and dampen the end to end internal of the cabinet, but on the horizontal axis, a columb could be the best. Also, theory suggests that having the drivers go all the way floor to ceiling will be significantly better than if there's a significant gap at either end. Hope this helps.
Sd and Cost update...
Now having the drivers in hand, I realize I can have 32/channel of the Fostex and 30/channel of the 10F. I could maybe go for 32/channel of the 10F, but I would be cutting very close to the rubber seal, that might be kinda risky.
So here are the Sd possibilities with pricing:
Fostex FF85wk - 32/channel @ $1280/channel or $2568 for the pair.
2 Mms = 64 Kg , total Sd: 896 cm sq
10F/8424G00 - 30/channel @ $2574 or $5148 for the pair
3.24 Mms = 97.2 Kg, total Sd 1110 cm sq
10F had better impress at that price
Now having the drivers in hand, I realize I can have 32/channel of the Fostex and 30/channel of the 10F. I could maybe go for 32/channel of the 10F, but I would be cutting very close to the rubber seal, that might be kinda risky.
So here are the Sd possibilities with pricing:
Fostex FF85wk - 32/channel @ $1280/channel or $2568 for the pair.
2 Mms = 64 Kg , total Sd: 896 cm sq
10F/8424G00 - 30/channel @ $2574 or $5148 for the pair
3.24 Mms = 97.2 Kg, total Sd 1110 cm sq
10F had better impress at that price
Thanks for checking in Bob...
I will check those out...
I will touch on some of your other points later on, some have been discussed, and others had helped validate concerns I have inquired about through out this thread.
Off to work now, maybe I will chime in between shifts...
Allen
I will check those out...
I will touch on some of your other points later on, some have been discussed, and others had helped validate concerns I have inquired about through out this thread.
Off to work now, maybe I will chime in between shifts...
Allen
I'm a little late offering yet another alternative, but I just found them and they look interesting. Cloth surrounds, good FR if it's anything close to what's published, and nice T/S specs.
They are about $15 each here.
They are about $15 each here.
Attachments
Fostex FF85wKeN ($170 pr) vrs stock ScanSpeak 10F ($190/pr)
Bernie came over and we had a 1st round of comparison.
The FF85wKeN is better in most ways. It has better top and reaches a bit lower. It is capable of throwing a bigger, more detailed, more 3D soundstage. It plumbs deeper into the depths and gives more detail about the voice or instrument playing. ie greater DDR.
The FF85wKeN in the uFonkenSET dissapears as a speaker, the nScan-Ken sometimes reveals its presence -- now this is as likely to be the box as the driver... given its size not much can be done for the nScan-Ken in terms of diffraction reduction, the uFonkenSET excels as that.
Many of the things that the FF85wKeN does better than the 10F are things that a treated driver does better than its stock counterpart, so we expect that once we treat the 10F many of the FF85s advantages will go away (but at a price, 10FeN are going to be in the $300/pr range). I doubt treating will bring back the missing 10F top end.
dave
Bernie came over and we had a 1st round of comparison.
The FF85wKeN is better in most ways. It has better top and reaches a bit lower. It is capable of throwing a bigger, more detailed, more 3D soundstage. It plumbs deeper into the depths and gives more detail about the voice or instrument playing. ie greater DDR.
The FF85wKeN in the uFonkenSET dissapears as a speaker, the nScan-Ken sometimes reveals its presence -- now this is as likely to be the box as the driver... given its size not much can be done for the nScan-Ken in terms of diffraction reduction, the uFonkenSET excels as that.
Many of the things that the FF85wKeN does better than the 10F are things that a treated driver does better than its stock counterpart, so we expect that once we treat the 10F many of the FF85s advantages will go away (but at a price, 10FeN are going to be in the $300/pr range). I doubt treating will bring back the missing 10F top end.
dave
Hi Allen,
It's been kind of quiet here. I hope you're still on coarse with the plans for your ultimate arrays. Have you been testing speakers yet?
I just wanted to drop in with a note about the quality of the treble using full rangers. Slowly but surely I'm getting what I was after. A lot of factors come into play here. I'd definitely look for the driver with the cleanest impulse to get it done. No ringing drivers allowed I'd say. Further more look at the LoCo papers described in the linked thread. I'm using that particular EQ to get my mid and side to sound alike. It works quite well after a bit of experimenting. The rest is still a lot of DRC processing using variables outside of the original DRC scope but I'm pretty pleased with the results so far.
Just a little encouragement to keep you on track!
It's been kind of quiet here. I hope you're still on coarse with the plans for your ultimate arrays. Have you been testing speakers yet?
I just wanted to drop in with a note about the quality of the treble using full rangers. Slowly but surely I'm getting what I was after. A lot of factors come into play here. I'd definitely look for the driver with the cleanest impulse to get it done. No ringing drivers allowed I'd say. Further more look at the LoCo papers described in the linked thread. I'm using that particular EQ to get my mid and side to sound alike. It works quite well after a bit of experimenting. The rest is still a lot of DRC processing using variables outside of the original DRC scope but I'm pretty pleased with the results so far.
Just a little encouragement to keep you on track!
I Envy all of You day workers!
Thanks Dave and Wesayso for checking in,
This has been a really tough summer for me. I am used to being very busy in the summer, as I have three jobs, but this has been the first summer where my main job is midnight shift. Doing 12 hour days by day, verses doing the majority of that by night, is a whole different level of challenge and tiredness. I was fine with this in the spring, when I was working only 10 hour shifts, but once my landscaping business kicked in, is where I started to have issues. I cut it back a lot and was in fact looking for others to replace me. But despite everyone saying they want a job, no one seems to be willing to put in the work! I have put my social life on hold, to grind thru this summer. I am still suffering from sleep shift disorder and Insomnia. You would think working 12 hours a day would make you really tired, but instead You end up with this adrenaline induced jacked up tired feeling. When I work less, I sleep better. Rest begets rest I suppose.
Thankfully, there is only a couple months left and it is tapering down. I am actually looking forward to winter this year. I will not be doing this next summer. My clients have all winter to find someone else. I made commitments for this summer, so I could not ditch them without a worthy replacement. Eventually, I would like to have my main night job and supplement that with an income in my one of my passions, say audio or art.
Anyway, enough drama
I have not even had the chance to mount the drivers yet. With time being so tight, I did not see a point in designing the stackable array test cabinets I originally planned. Instead, I will be building some sphere shaped cabinets for them. I have always wanted to try that. Also, as Bob pointed out, I would like the ascetic of the arrays being a Corinthian column shape. Also, I am thinking the loser of the blow out between the Fostex and F10, would be neat to try in FAST with Avebury. Avebury on lows and the sphere on highs, cross-over dialed in between 200-300 Hz. I am also thinking the sphere would have good resale value, so no wasted wood.
Also, I did decide, that I really did not want to pick out a driver until I got the amp I wanted. So that is what I am focusing on now. In fact, I was ready to pull the trigger on the Ncore 400 kits, when I found a fully assembled Ncore 500 amp on the Swap Meet. A hare out of budget, but plug and play and supposedly "better". Research on that lead me to Lazy Cat's First One Mosfet Amp which many members prefer over the Ncores. That one is in budget also. I have not made up my mind yet which one to get, so if any of you have any impressions, I would Love to hear them.
Dave, I would be interested to know if the untreated version of the FF85wk still shows a lot of the advantages over the F10. It is going to be interesting once I get a chance to play with these. I still plan on buying the Techtonic and Vifa also.
Wesayso, I get to read your thread once and awhile, and I can say You continue to amaze me on the refinement, devotion and passion You put into your Towers. I have just tapped the tip of the iceberg with the DSP options in JRiver. When I get a chance, I will share some of my dabbling with DSP and FIR filters with my Cheap and Cheerfuls and the Dayton subs.
Now it is off to work for we, the next 12 hours are up...
Thank You all for your concerns and any prayers are greatly appreciated. This has been very hard indeed.
The Aspiring Array Project is still on, just majorly detoured!
Until next time...
Allen
Thanks Dave and Wesayso for checking in,
This has been a really tough summer for me. I am used to being very busy in the summer, as I have three jobs, but this has been the first summer where my main job is midnight shift. Doing 12 hour days by day, verses doing the majority of that by night, is a whole different level of challenge and tiredness. I was fine with this in the spring, when I was working only 10 hour shifts, but once my landscaping business kicked in, is where I started to have issues. I cut it back a lot and was in fact looking for others to replace me. But despite everyone saying they want a job, no one seems to be willing to put in the work! I have put my social life on hold, to grind thru this summer. I am still suffering from sleep shift disorder and Insomnia. You would think working 12 hours a day would make you really tired, but instead You end up with this adrenaline induced jacked up tired feeling.
When I work less, I sleep better. Rest begets rest I suppose. Thankfully, there is only a couple months left and it is tapering down. I am actually looking forward to winter this year. I will not be doing this next summer. My clients have all winter to find someone else. I made commitments for this summer, so I could not ditch them without a worthy replacement. Eventually, I would like to have my main night job and supplement that with an income in my one of my passions, say audio or art.
Anyway, enough drama
I have not even had the chance to mount the drivers yet. With time being so tight, I did not see a point in designing the stackable array test cabinets I originally planned. Instead, I will be building some sphere shaped cabinets for them. I have always wanted to try that. Also, as Bob pointed out, I would like the ascetic of the arrays being a Corinthian column shape. Also, I am thinking the loser of the blow out between the Fostex and F10, would be neat to try in FAST with Avebury. Avebury on lows and the sphere on highs, cross-over dialed in between 200-300 Hz. I am also thinking the sphere would have good resale value, so no wasted wood.
Also, I did decide, that I really did not want to pick out a driver until I got the amp I wanted. So that is what I am focusing on now. In fact, I was ready to pull the trigger on the Ncore 400 kits, when I found a fully assembled Ncore 500 amp on the Swap Meet. A hare out of budget, but plug and play and supposedly "better". Research on that lead me to Lazy Cat's First One Mosfet Amp which many members prefer over the Ncores. That one is in budget also. I have not made up my mind yet which one to get, so if any of you have any impressions, I would Love to hear them.
Dave, I would be interested to know if the untreated version of the FF85wk still shows a lot of the advantages over the F10. It is going to be interesting once I get a chance to play with these. I still plan on buying the Techtonic and Vifa also.
Wesayso, I get to read your thread once and awhile, and I can say You continue to amaze me on the refinement, devotion and passion You put into your Towers. I have just tapped the tip of the iceberg with the DSP options in JRiver. When I get a chance, I will share some of my dabbling with DSP and FIR filters with my Cheap and Cheerfuls and the Dayton subs.
Now it is off to work for we, the next 12 hours are up...
Thank You all for your concerns and any prayers are greatly appreciated. This has been very hard indeed.
The Aspiring Array Project is still on, just majorly detoured!
Until next time...
Allen
I don't know. It has been a while since i listened to a stock FF85, the treated driver is better. I do some very specific things besides EnABL to deal with some of the issues in the stock driver.
After living with the benefits of EnABL for so long one quickly misses what it brings to the table over drivers that aren't.
dave
Glad to hear you're alright. I've been eying the NCore amps too. I'd like to actually hear one as they are made not far from here. It really has to beat my old amp though as there is the nostalgia part there that's hard to replace. I've had it for about 25 years with scheduled maintenance from time to time. Can't say anything useful about the class D amps in general yet, but should be wiser after a visit of a forum member to my place.
Lazy Cat's First One Mosfet Amp looks nice and affordable... 160 watt at 8 ohm vs 200 watt with the NCore. Not that different in supply. But the question is the sound of coarse.
Lazy Cat's First One Mosfet Amp looks nice and affordable... 160 watt at 8 ohm vs 200 watt with the NCore. Not that different in supply. But the question is the sound of coarse.
I'm interested in class D amps for a camping stereo project I've been considering building, but worry about failure mode eating my speakers. It seems like a relatively new technology in some ways. Reading the user comments on the PE website, I've heard of male functions of many of the class D amps, and people there don't seem to think the ncore amp sounds good compared to other class D amps they have. But you never know if those user comments are at all valid for several reasons.
Custom Complexities...
Actually I am getting pretty frustrated with these amps. I am spinning my wheels trying to figure out how much US Customs charges to import these modules into the US. It looks like it will be about 25% of the total cost of the product and shipping. Technically, I may have to pay state sales tax in addition to that, another 6%. 2.5% to PayPal to exchange Dollars to Euros.
Vultures!
I do not know, an American designed Nelson Pass Amp is looking pretty promising right now!
This is a shame really when You consider the variety of nationalities on this forum. These tariffs and duties put up some big walls to over come for some of the small business owners on these forums. The most frustrating part for me is finding a resource that will provide an honest, legitimate estimate for such costs, so I am not surprised when the mailman comes to the door and says, "that will be $600, please" for a kit that cost $800 and $200 to ship it here...
Wesayso should have good access to these kits through
If any of You know of any reliable resources for this information, you let me know. I am thinking I need to make some phone calls.
peace,
Allen
Actually I am getting pretty frustrated with these amps. I am spinning my wheels trying to figure out how much US Customs charges to import these modules into the US. It looks like it will be about 25% of the total cost of the product and shipping. Technically, I may have to pay state sales tax in addition to that, another 6%. 2.5% to PayPal to exchange Dollars to Euros.
Vultures! I do not know, an American designed Nelson Pass Amp is looking pretty promising right now!
This is a shame really when You consider the variety of nationalities on this forum. These tariffs and duties put up some big walls to over come for some of the small business owners on these forums. The most frustrating part for me is finding a resource that will provide an honest, legitimate estimate for such costs, so I am not surprised when the mailman comes to the door and says, "that will be $600, please" for a kit that cost $800 and $200 to ship it here...
Wesayso should have good access to these kits through
If any of You know of any reliable resources for this information, you let me know. I am thinking I need to make some phone calls.
peace,
Allen
Cheap, chip based class D amps maybe… Tripath has been around for sometime. 1st commercial Class D amp i heard came from Infinity in the late '70s.
http://spectrum.ieee.org/geek-life/tools-toys/classd-audio-the-power-and-the-glory
dave
Thanks for the link and info.
I'm wondering if the very low cost class D amp boards at Parts Express are any good. For example the Sure 2 X 25 watt TDA7492 stereo poweramp board at $20? I was thinking it could make a nice ghetto blaster for camping with a 19 volt laptop battery. The reviewers liked the sound of this one significantly better than the ncores they have.
Sure boards
Bob,
I have two of the older Sure Boards based off the Tripath TK2050. The tonality is very similar to my Peter Daniel's LM3875 Chip Amp Build. I prefer the Chip Amps because they have a more "open" and 3D mid range. The Sure Tripath creates a 2D soundstage that is a straight line between the speakers. The Bass control and Treble are pretty much identical. Bear in mind that I did not modify the Sure boards, so those that are willing to do some surface mount soldering can improve the stock sound.
You have a legitimate concern here. I had an accidental short on one of the speaker terminals and BOTH speakers howled at maximum output. It took me the longest time to figure it out, as it turned out to be a strand of tin (I am guessing 40 gauge) that had got between the terminals. Lord knows where it come from. I was lucky. The speakers and Amp survived. But it is for this reason I am selling these boards. I was going to use them for the open baffles I am building for my brother. But because the back of the speakers have removable speaker grills and my two nieces are 3 and 6 years old, I do not want to take a chance. The LM3875 Amps have better protection.
But for your application as a ghetto blaster, with everything enclosed and secure, I think something like this is a good option. Sure has improved their boards quite a bit since I bought mine.
Interesting that people find the TDA7492 better then the Ncores. 25 watts verses 200 watts. But it is not all about power either, it could very well be that the TDA7492 has better mid-range. Interesting thing reading reviews about the Ncore, users mention good bass control and smooth resolved highs, but not too much is said about the mid range or 3D soundstages. Many users seem to resort to a tube based pre-amp or IV stage to bring that out. From what I am reading, Ncore is a very neutral with lots of power. This may sound uneventful, as it does not have any "character" of its own and relies on the system designer to model the sound they want using the rest of their system. This sounds good in theory, true to being "Hi Fi". But maybe it is the character of that little bit of imperfection in a given system that we really like.
But from what I read, the Ncore modules do have good protection.
I hope this helps.
Allen
Bob,
I have two of the older Sure Boards based off the Tripath TK2050. The tonality is very similar to my Peter Daniel's LM3875 Chip Amp Build. I prefer the Chip Amps because they have a more "open" and 3D mid range. The Sure Tripath creates a 2D soundstage that is a straight line between the speakers. The Bass control and Treble are pretty much identical. Bear in mind that I did not modify the Sure boards, so those that are willing to do some surface mount soldering can improve the stock sound.
You have a legitimate concern here. I had an accidental short on one of the speaker terminals and BOTH speakers howled at maximum output. It took me the longest time to figure it out, as it turned out to be a strand of tin (I am guessing 40 gauge) that had got between the terminals. Lord knows where it come from. I was lucky. The speakers and Amp survived. But it is for this reason I am selling these boards. I was going to use them for the open baffles I am building for my brother. But because the back of the speakers have removable speaker grills and my two nieces are 3 and 6 years old, I do not want to take a chance. The LM3875 Amps have better protection.
But for your application as a ghetto blaster, with everything enclosed and secure, I think something like this is a good option. Sure has improved their boards quite a bit since I bought mine.
Interesting that people find the TDA7492 better then the Ncores. 25 watts verses 200 watts. But it is not all about power either, it could very well be that the TDA7492 has better mid-range. Interesting thing reading reviews about the Ncore, users mention good bass control and smooth resolved highs, but not too much is said about the mid range or 3D soundstages. Many users seem to resort to a tube based pre-amp or IV stage to bring that out. From what I am reading, Ncore is a very neutral with lots of power. This may sound uneventful, as it does not have any "character" of its own and relies on the system designer to model the sound they want using the rest of their system. This sounds good in theory, true to being "Hi Fi". But maybe it is the character of that little bit of imperfection in a given system that we really like.
But from what I read, the Ncore modules do have good protection.
I hope this helps.
Allen
Attachments
Thanks Allen for the info. I didn't see any high power Ncore boards at PE, perhaps because I was only looking for approx. 25 watts per channel into 8 ohms kind of thing. I suspect that PE may not have the latest versions of Ncore technology. I also hesitate to trust those little fans some boards have mounted on the heatsinks. I've seen many of those go bad too soon.Bob,
I have two of the older Sure Boards based off the Tripath TK2050. The tonality is very similar to my Peter Daniel's LM3875 Chip Amp Build. I prefer the Chip Amps because they have a more "open" and 3D mid range. The Sure Tripath creates a 2D soundstage that is a straight line between the speakers. The Bass control and Treble are pretty much identical. Bear in mind that I did not modify the Sure boards, so those that are willing to do some surface mount soldering can improve the stock sound.
You have a legitimate concern here. I had an accidental short on one of the speaker terminals and BOTH speakers howled at maximum output. It took me the longest time to figure it out, as it turned out to be a strand of tin (I am guessing 40 gauge) that had got between the terminals. Lord knows where it come from. I was lucky. The speakers and Amp survived. But it is for this reason I am selling these boards. I was going to use them for the open baffles I am building for my brother. But because the back of the speakers have removable speaker grills and my two nieces are 3 and 6 years old, I do not want to take a chance. The LM3875 Amps have better protection.
But for your application as a ghetto blaster, with everything enclosed and secure, I think something like this is a good option. Sure has improved their boards quite a bit since I bought mine.
Interesting that people find the TDA7492 better then the Ncores. 25 watts verses 200 watts. But it is not all about power either, it could very well be that the TDA7492 has better mid-range. Interesting thing reading reviews about the Ncore, users mention good bass control and smooth resolved highs, but not too much is said about the mid range or 3D soundstages. Many users seem to resort to a tube based pre-amp or IV stage to bring that out. From what I am reading, Ncore is a very neutral with lots of power. This may sound uneventful, as it does not have any "character" of its own and relies on the system designer to model the sound they want using the rest of their system. This sounds good in theory, true to being "Hi Fi". But maybe it is the character of that little bit of imperfection in a given system that we really like.
But from what I read, the Ncore modules do have good protection.
I hope this helps.
Allen
Bob,
Unfortunately, the only way to get the Ncore modules is through Hypex directly, located in the Netherlands. Pretty costly for us, due to the importing customs fees.
As far as the little fans on the sure boards, I had mine plugged into the 5 volt constant tap on the board, so they ran constantly. It worked pretty good, but injected some noise into the amp. Like I say, my boards were an earlier edition of the first Sure boards Parts-express carried. They have improved since then. All the new boards have big fans.
Actually I am getting pretty frustrated with these amps. I am spinning my wheels trying to figure out how much US Customs charges to import these modules into the US. It looks like it will be about 25% of the total cost of the product and shipping. Technically, I may have to pay state sales tax in addition to that, another 6%. 2.5% to PayPal to exchange Dollars to Euros.
I do not know, an American designed Nelson Pass Amp is looking pretty promising right now!
This is a shame really when You consider the variety of nationalities on this forum. These tariffs and duties put up some big walls to over come for some of the small business owners on these forums. The most frustrating part for me is finding a resource that will provide an honest, legitimate estimate for such costs, so I am not surprised when the mailman comes to the door and says, "that will be $600, please" for a kit that cost $800 and $200 to ship it here...
Wesayso should have good access to these kits through
If any of You know of any reliable resources for this information, you let me know. I am thinking I need to make some phone calls.
peace,
Allen
Paid $170 CoD to UPS on receiving 4x NC400, 4xUcD400Hxr, 4xSMPS400, 2XSMPS600
Thanks, jojip
Awesome, a finite number! Actually, that is not bad for all You got.
I know a lot of the importing costs are relative to how things are categorized. Customs does have a separate category for "Amplifier Parts", which seems to be lower. So if I go this route, I might be just as well off buying the kits instead of the completed Amps. jojip, I read through some of your impressions of Ncore on the hypex Ncore thread. It sounds like You are still working on getting your build dialed in. What Amps are You upgrading from?
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