Sooooooo many questions!
Hi Allen,
I will try to answer each one in a different post to avoid a " War & Peace" length document!
Yes I used stacks of CNC'd birch ply with asymmetry on all internal surfaces and an external 5mm curved birch layer to allow flawless veneer and or piano black gloss finishing.
(1) The spikes Vs springs (rubber or metal) subject is interesting and rather complex....When Robert of Star Sound Technologies, tried to explain it to me I felt way out of my depth!
Laws of "Coulomb's Friction" was mentioned a lot, also providing the easiest path for the energy to "drain" to earth....Just like electrical energy seeks the path of least resistance to Earth so does kinetic energy.
With my Overkill Audio stuff the big heavy bass cabinets and Beyma 12 LX 60 bass driver the sound really came alive with the Star sound plynths....The same system sounded slow and muddy when placed directly on carpets or floors....
The cabinets did not rock or vibrate in the slightest (see pics for construction details) and this link for review 6moons audio reviews: Overkill Audio Encore Speaker System
so I can only deduce that all the resonance and vibration was staying in the cabinet / driver system without the Star Sound plynths.
Hi Allen,
I will try to answer each one in a different post to avoid a " War & Peace" length document!
Yes I used stacks of CNC'd birch ply with asymmetry on all internal surfaces and an external 5mm curved birch layer to allow flawless veneer and or piano black gloss finishing.
(1) The spikes Vs springs (rubber or metal) subject is interesting and rather complex....When Robert of Star Sound Technologies, tried to explain it to me I felt way out of my depth!
Laws of "Coulomb's Friction" was mentioned a lot, also providing the easiest path for the energy to "drain" to earth....Just like electrical energy seeks the path of least resistance to Earth so does kinetic energy.
With my Overkill Audio stuff the big heavy bass cabinets and Beyma 12 LX 60 bass driver the sound really came alive with the Star sound plynths....The same system sounded slow and muddy when placed directly on carpets or floors....
The cabinets did not rock or vibrate in the slightest (see pics for construction details) and this link for review 6moons audio reviews: Overkill Audio Encore Speaker System
so I can only deduce that all the resonance and vibration was staying in the cabinet / driver system without the Star Sound plynths.
Attachments
Manger driver incustom GRP tear drop head unit
Re the head unit...
The Manger driver head unit was the original "Bending Wave Driver"...It has a great history and Proff Joseph Manger and his daughter Daniela are genius's!
I got the teardrop shaped head units custom made from GRP using layers of epoxy, glass matting, epoxy, bitumen, epoxy, leather, epoxy and more leatther...phew.
Each head unit ended up weighing over 20Kg with a small internal air volume of around 9 litres from memory....They were solid, really zero vibration even at high SPL's. Interestingly they sounded better when sat on a thick (45mm) custom molded Sorbothane pad, they did not like being "spiked" to the bass cabinets.
The Sorbothane pad also allowed for the perfect vertical and horizontal angle of location depending on room and listening distance.
Being crossed over at 300Hz to 400Hz, there is much less energy involved so I suspect the head unit sorbothane didnt have to " Earth" much energy compared to the bass.
Cheers
D.
Re the head unit...
The Manger driver head unit was the original "Bending Wave Driver"...It has a great history and Proff Joseph Manger and his daughter Daniela are genius's!
I got the teardrop shaped head units custom made from GRP using layers of epoxy, glass matting, epoxy, bitumen, epoxy, leather, epoxy and more leatther...phew.
Each head unit ended up weighing over 20Kg with a small internal air volume of around 9 litres from memory....They were solid, really zero vibration even at high SPL's. Interestingly they sounded better when sat on a thick (45mm) custom molded Sorbothane pad, they did not like being "spiked" to the bass cabinets.
The Sorbothane pad also allowed for the perfect vertical and horizontal angle of location depending on room and listening distance.
Being crossed over at 300Hz to 400Hz, there is much less energy involved so I suspect the head unit sorbothane didnt have to " Earth" much energy compared to the bass.
Cheers
D.
Attachments
The $80,000 question:
Have not read through all of the 6 moons review yet; so awe inspired of who one comes across in these forums
Of course I can not help myself but to ask this question:
How does the Encore compare to the BMR arrays? Or is it, How does the BMR arrays compare to the Encore?
Have not read through all of the 6 moons review yet; so awe inspired of who one comes across in these forums
Of course I can not help myself but to ask this question:
How does the Encore compare to the BMR arrays? Or is it, How does the BMR arrays compare to the Encore?
Trip to UK ....Yea!
You will be welcome any time Allen, this summer or next whenever the time is right.
I am confident we will have USA representation by the end of this year.
System development never stops so there is never really an end game just a starting point which lets you enjoy great music / movies & games with a view to upgrading if the funds required result in worthwhile upgrade in enjoyment.
Re $$$....
All I can say for sure is that our commercial goal is to sell systems that are obviously better than any other commercial products that are on sale at the same or higher price points.
As a new kid on the block this means we have to pretty much crush the competition in order to overcome the established brands market dominance and distribution / retail / marketing vested interests.
I absolutely believe if we built a domestically acceptable AILA system (RRP of around £30K) it would "crush" any system at any price that was physically able to fit in a domestic lounge....Bring on the crazy £100,000 cables, £500,000 speakers, £500,000 amps etc....
Can you cram in £3 million worth of audiophile snake oil resonators / purifiers / valves or whatever into a room?
Name your place (in the UK at the moment!) and I will take along my £30K system and show that 1% of the money spent with us is the way to go.....
My one condition for this (expensive!) PR challenge is that I get to film the demo's and bring along a selection of recording engineers, musicians and technology journalists (no hifi reviewers!) .....Their opinions will be respected more than any audiophile magazines....
Anyway, back down to Earth now!
As far as our DIY kits go, they will feature a great deal of trickle down technology and perform to a very similar level, but as self assembly / installation / set up is required they will be much lower in cost, circa 45% discount.
So, Hypothetically we could price our flagship DIY AILA system around £16K.
I could see entry level speaker / DSP / / DAC / amplifier systems starting around £2K?....Sort of £2K Silver, £4K Gold, £8K Platinum & £16K Diamond.
Each time you double the budget you get a serious and obvious improvement in sound....No diminishing returns or subtle upgrades here!
Hope this helps and please remember these prices are Hypothetical at this stage!
All the best
Derek.
No doubt. I am guessing your complete AILA system is in the $$,$$$ range. I originally was planning on building this piece by piece. I figured once I knew the drivers I wanted, I would slowly acquire them as I build the cabinets, as the cabinets will take some time. By "slowly" I was thinking over the course of the summer and fall. When winter hits here, all discretionary money goes to keeping the house warm for listening tests.
I think the AILA system would probably out perform anything I could build from scratch, yet I am not sure if I want to give up the adventure of building my own system.
I just wish I could hear a BMR, to see if this is what I want to do. I have relatives in England, so that part would work. I just have to wait until I have enough vacation time acquired to take a trip like that - that would be the beginning of next summer, as I would like at least ten days. So we have plenty of time to contemplate...
Allen
You will be welcome any time Allen, this summer or next whenever the time is right.
I am confident we will have USA representation by the end of this year.
System development never stops so there is never really an end game just a starting point which lets you enjoy great music / movies & games with a view to upgrading if the funds required result in worthwhile upgrade in enjoyment.
Re $$$....
All I can say for sure is that our commercial goal is to sell systems that are obviously better than any other commercial products that are on sale at the same or higher price points.
As a new kid on the block this means we have to pretty much crush the competition in order to overcome the established brands market dominance and distribution / retail / marketing vested interests.
I absolutely believe if we built a domestically acceptable AILA system (RRP of around £30K) it would "crush" any system at any price that was physically able to fit in a domestic lounge....Bring on the crazy £100,000 cables, £500,000 speakers, £500,000 amps etc....
Can you cram in £3 million worth of audiophile snake oil resonators / purifiers / valves or whatever into a room?
Name your place (in the UK at the moment!) and I will take along my £30K system and show that 1% of the money spent with us is the way to go.....
My one condition for this (expensive!) PR challenge is that I get to film the demo's and bring along a selection of recording engineers, musicians and technology journalists (no hifi reviewers!) .....Their opinions will be respected more than any audiophile magazines....
Anyway, back down to Earth now!
As far as our DIY kits go, they will feature a great deal of trickle down technology and perform to a very similar level, but as self assembly / installation / set up is required they will be much lower in cost, circa 45% discount.
So, Hypothetically we could price our flagship DIY AILA system around £16K.
I could see entry level speaker / DSP / / DAC / amplifier systems starting around £2K?....Sort of £2K Silver, £4K Gold, £8K Platinum & £16K Diamond.
Each time you double the budget you get a serious and obvious improvement in sound....No diminishing returns or subtle upgrades here!
Hope this helps and please remember these prices are Hypothetical at this stage!
All the best
Derek.
Encore Vs BMR line array.....
The bottom line is I would not be wasting my time and money (my childrens future!) if I was not onto something genuinely disruptive here.
The fact that both private investors and Manchester University have also backed us is very exciting.
We now have the resources to do real R&D and partner with world class players.
With Overkill Audio it was just Petra and I, we had a blast and loved the travel and shows and all the excitement but at the end of the day we had no IP / protection....Great products but small scale high end niche market, so when the crash came.....Owch!
I still love the Manger driver / Encore / Angel ( open baffle) and the Finale, they were as good as I could build at the time, and I am very proud of our products.
But only now with our silk BMR's do I really understand what home entertainment can be.....
Its not just about listening to music or watching a movie, you go on the journey that the composer / artists / movie director wants to take you on.....Its much more like reading a great book in a quiet safe environment, all your senses relax and your mind goes to another world and depending on the story you feel elated, sad, excited, scared....Whatever the emotion you feel its impact big time because were totally immersed in it.
The silk BMR's do this....They have such low time domain errors that your senses relax and our ear / brains 3D sound location system reacts to the sounds as if they are real....Its astonishing when your body's natural "fight or flight" reaction is triggered by a scary movie moment....Even movies you know inside out still make you jump ...." Wheres the Goat?" moments are fab!
Music like the Gladiator soundtrack leaves you inspired but emotionally drained, cliche but its like you were there!
This is the exact opposite of the "listener fatigue" inducing systems that dominate the consumer electronics world....This is whats disruptive with our technology and why we have received such backing.
Still a long way to go on the journey to success , but hey, I'm loving it so far!
Cheers
Derek.
Have not read through all of the 6 moons review yet; so awe inspired of who one comes across in these forums
Of course I can not help myself but to ask this question:
How does the Encore compare to the BMR arrays? Or is it, How does the BMR arrays compare to the Encore?
The bottom line is I would not be wasting my time and money (my childrens future!) if I was not onto something genuinely disruptive here.
The fact that both private investors and Manchester University have also backed us is very exciting.
We now have the resources to do real R&D and partner with world class players.
With Overkill Audio it was just Petra and I, we had a blast and loved the travel and shows and all the excitement but at the end of the day we had no IP / protection....Great products but small scale high end niche market, so when the crash came.....Owch!
I still love the Manger driver / Encore / Angel ( open baffle) and the Finale, they were as good as I could build at the time, and I am very proud of our products.
But only now with our silk BMR's do I really understand what home entertainment can be.....
Its not just about listening to music or watching a movie, you go on the journey that the composer / artists / movie director wants to take you on.....Its much more like reading a great book in a quiet safe environment, all your senses relax and your mind goes to another world and depending on the story you feel elated, sad, excited, scared....Whatever the emotion you feel its impact big time because were totally immersed in it.
The silk BMR's do this....They have such low time domain errors that your senses relax and our ear / brains 3D sound location system reacts to the sounds as if they are real....Its astonishing when your body's natural "fight or flight" reaction is triggered by a scary movie moment....Even movies you know inside out still make you jump ...." Wheres the Goat?" moments are fab!
Music like the Gladiator soundtrack leaves you inspired but emotionally drained, cliche but its like you were there!
This is the exact opposite of the "listener fatigue" inducing systems that dominate the consumer electronics world....This is whats disruptive with our technology and why we have received such backing.
Still a long way to go on the journey to success , but hey, I'm loving it so far!
Cheers
Derek.
Number Crunching time!
Here are the drivers with costs and 1:1000 cabinet weights figured:
For the Fast systems with conventional drivers:
Aura NS2-326-8TA - 50/channel @ $775/channel or $1550 for the pair.
1.04 Mms/driver = 52 Kg/array a lightweight indeed! Total Sd: 660 cm sq (not bad!)
Seas L16RN-SL - 16/channel @ $1440/channel or $2880 for the pair.
14.8 Mms/driver = 237 Kg/array total Sd: 1664 cm sq
System total is $4430.
I am considering the Aura because of the measured off axis response and its successful track record being used in Linkwitz's Pluto system. Of the conventional units, this one has the best off axis response, due to an interesting 12 kHz anomaly with the inverted dome cone. Also, the Mms to Bl ratio looks good, as well as the large voice coil, and NRT magnet structure. I do not know if I would really go with the Seas for the bass array. I was just following Linkwitz's design. There are more then likely more cost effective options for the bass array, esp given that I will be crossing the Aura at about 300 Hz. Not sure how well this would work being so close to the Fs of the Aura.
SB Acoustics SB65WBAC - 40/channel @ $1260 or $2520 for the pair.
2.9 Mms/driver = 116 Kg/Array Total Sd: 800 cm sq.
Pairing this with a comparable bass line as above would put the total system at about $5400
I am considering this driver mainly due to its "published" off axis response which has been validated by users of this unit. Distortion seems "reasonable" for a 250 Hz cross-over to a bass line. No CSD data was found.
Tectonic TEMB46 -36/channel @ $619 or $1238 for the pair.
2.26 Mms/driver = 81 Kg/array, total Sd: 705.6 cm sq
ALPAIR-12PW -12/channel @ $1464 or $2928 for the pair.
11.7 Mms = 141 Kg/array Total Sd: 1769 cm sq
Total system is $4166
I threw in the Alpair here as I am familiar with the Full-range version of the Alpair 12. I feel pretty confident I could get this bass line down to 20 Hz if I wanted, and would have a good integration with a 250 - 300 Hz cross-over.
This may even be a better option for the Aura above. Really curious about the BMR though! The BMR has an excellent Mms to Bl ratio, large voice coil for its size, the lowest Qts of all the drivers I am considering (high Qms to boot), excellent efficiency and claimed exceptional off-axis response. Needless to say, it has really peaked my interest.
Peerless TG9FD10-08 - 30/channel @ 568.50/channel or $1137 for the pair.
2.5 Mms = 75 Kg/array, total Sd: 1122 cm sq
Dayton Audio RSS315HF-4 - 1/channel @ $150/channel or $300 for the pair.
211.9 Mms = 211.9 Kg, total Sd: 514.7 cm sq (that's all 
)
system total: $1437
The TG9 is one of the few drivers I am considering that would have "reasonable" distortion performance to be crossed at 80 Hz to a "conventional" sub-woofer. I think is would be a significant improvement over what I have, but I do not have the feeling of breaking any new ground on this one. I just have an overall sense of mediocrity on this one.
What I find interesting though is comparing the "conventional" sub-woofer, to the woofer arrays. One can have a lighter cabinet and move 3 times the area of air! I am thinking the arrayed bass would be more nimble and be more tolerable for the lady listeners out there.
Fostex FF85wk - 32/channel @ $1280/channel or $2568 for the pair.
2 Mms = 64 Kg, total Sd: 896 cm sq
Conventional sub-woofer system total is $2868 and With Alpair bass array would be $5496.
The FF85wk holds its own quite well, off-axis response trailing a little behind the SB, but ahead of the TG9. Mms to Bl ratio is close to the BMR. class leading CSD (for a conventional driver). Sensitivity is good. Overall listening impressions of this driver in the full-range community are very favorable, esp when used in Fast type systems. I could "squeeze" by with a conventional sub-woofer to start out, but the distortion plots favor a cross-over at 250 Hz. Not to mention, I think I would enjoy the more "caressive" subsonic bass of 1769 cm sq over 514 cm sq. Of course that would make this system the most expensive on this list, but it can be built over time.
Yet we really have not explored other possible bass line options yet.
But given what the Tectonic looks like on paper, that could very well be the "cats meow" for this given price range.
Also, there is not a rush on the bass line either, as I can "settle" with the Avebury for now, given the near field/far field mis-match of these systems. In fact, finding the Avebury A good home would help fund the bass array, any takers?
What do You all think?
Here are the drivers with costs and 1:1000 cabinet weights figured:
For the Fast systems with conventional drivers:
Aura NS2-326-8TA - 50/channel @ $775/channel or $1550 for the pair.
1.04 Mms/driver = 52 Kg/array a lightweight indeed! Total Sd: 660 cm sq (not bad!)
Seas L16RN-SL - 16/channel @ $1440/channel or $2880 for the pair.
14.8 Mms/driver = 237 Kg/array
total Sd: 1664 cm sqSystem total is $4430.
I am considering the Aura because of the measured off axis response and its successful track record being used in Linkwitz's Pluto system. Of the conventional units, this one has the best off axis response, due to an interesting 12 kHz anomaly with the inverted dome cone. Also, the Mms to Bl ratio looks good, as well as the large voice coil, and NRT magnet structure. I do not know if I would really go with the Seas for the bass array. I was just following Linkwitz's design. There are more then likely more cost effective options for the bass array, esp given that I will be crossing the Aura at about 300 Hz. Not sure how well this would work being so close to the Fs of the Aura.
SB Acoustics SB65WBAC - 40/channel @ $1260 or $2520 for the pair.
2.9 Mms/driver = 116 Kg/Array Total Sd: 800 cm sq.
Pairing this with a comparable bass line as above would put the total system at about $5400
I am considering this driver mainly due to its "published" off axis response which has been validated by users of this unit. Distortion seems "reasonable" for a 250 Hz cross-over to a bass line. No CSD data was found.
Tectonic TEMB46 -36/channel @ $619 or $1238 for the pair.
2.26 Mms/driver = 81 Kg/array, total Sd: 705.6 cm sq
ALPAIR-12PW -12/channel @ $1464 or $2928 for the pair.
11.7 Mms = 141 Kg/array Total Sd: 1769 cm sq
Total system is $4166
I threw in the Alpair here as I am familiar with the Full-range version of the Alpair 12. I feel pretty confident I could get this bass line down to 20 Hz if I wanted, and would have a good integration with a 250 - 300 Hz cross-over.
This may even be a better option for the Aura above. Really curious about the BMR though! The BMR has an excellent Mms to Bl ratio, large voice coil for its size, the lowest Qts of all the drivers I am considering (high Qms to boot), excellent efficiency and claimed exceptional off-axis response. Needless to say, it has really peaked my interest.
Peerless TG9FD10-08 - 30/channel @ 568.50/channel or $1137 for the pair.
2.5 Mms = 75 Kg/array, total Sd: 1122 cm sq
Dayton Audio RSS315HF-4 - 1/channel @ $150/channel or $300 for the pair.
211.9 Mms = 211.9 Kg
, total Sd: 514.7 cm sq (that's all )system total: $1437
The TG9 is one of the few drivers I am considering that would have "reasonable" distortion performance to be crossed at 80 Hz to a "conventional" sub-woofer. I think is would be a significant improvement over what I have, but I do not have the feeling of breaking any new ground on this one. I just have an overall sense of mediocrity on this one.
What I find interesting though is comparing the "conventional" sub-woofer, to the woofer arrays. One can have a lighter cabinet and move 3 times the area of air! I am thinking the arrayed bass would be more nimble and be more tolerable for the lady listeners out there.
Fostex FF85wk - 32/channel @ $1280/channel or $2568 for the pair.
2 Mms = 64 Kg
, total Sd: 896 cm sqConventional sub-woofer system total is $2868 and With Alpair bass array would be $5496.
The FF85wk holds its own quite well, off-axis response trailing a little behind the SB, but ahead of the TG9. Mms to Bl ratio is close to the BMR. class leading CSD (for a conventional driver). Sensitivity is good. Overall listening impressions of this driver in the full-range community are very favorable, esp when used in Fast type systems. I could "squeeze" by with a conventional sub-woofer to start out, but the distortion plots favor a cross-over at 250 Hz. Not to mention, I think I would enjoy the more "caressive" subsonic bass of 1769 cm sq over 514 cm sq
. Of course that would make this system the most expensive on this list, but it can be built over time. Yet we really have not explored other possible bass line options yet.
But given what the Tectonic looks like on paper, that could very well be the "cats meow" for this given price range.
Also, there is not a rush on the bass line either, as I can "settle" with the Avebury for now, given the near field/far field mis-match of these systems. In fact, finding the Avebury A good home would help fund the bass array, any takers?
What do You all think?
Number crunching, Part II
So, lets say $5.4 K for the arrays
I have the Buffalo III DAC kit at $500 (I got a deal on Swap meets)
I need 3 more IVY output stages to finish the 8-channel version of this DAC - $270
I need the USBStreamer (miniDSP) to get the 4 - 8 channels of decoded Dolby or DTS True HD to the DAC: $105
I also need DSP: miniSharc: $185
So DSP and DAC total is: $1060 ($1360 if You pay full-price for the Buffalo III kit)
For the two-way Fast Arrays, one would need 4 Hypex Ncore amps @ appox $550 each. So that is $2200 for amps. (With the conventional subs, one could get away with a pair of Hypex ucd400HG at $400 for the pair - bringing the cost down to $1500 for amps. On the cheap, one could go with the Behringer
, but I will not go there!)
So The All Aspiring Array System comes to $8660. This does not include Star Spikes and the such yet. I am not including wood or chassis materials yet, because those are not included with OverKill's kits either.
I am doing this exercise for a couple of reasons:
First off, I am really brainstorming what is possible building the floor to ceiling near field line array using some of the highest performing products available to us as DIY artists. On many levels, we are very limited, to what we have available due to the small market niche we represent.
I also wanted to compare the alternate possibilities to the AILA system Derek has proposed. In my mind, there is no comparison. We are comparing apples to oranges. The components in his system have been fully customized and refined to the Nth degree with no compromises. The research and development alone is astounding! Derek saw the promise of the a new technology and took it to the next level, and built a whole system around it. Do I think his AILA system is worth 16,000 pounds? You bet ya! Just considering the physical aspect of it. My Fostex build with Alpair bass array has a total Sd of 2665. The AILA system has about 4680 Sd (I low balled the 6 - 12" mid-basses at 500 cm sq each). And the fact that all the components making up the system are class leading. I am thinking there is nothing to upgrade once one buys this kit... Do I need the SPL and Size of a 4680 Sd for my room? Probably not, in that way it is Overkill. But I do need the array height, and it just so happens, the 4.5 silk BMR and 12" woofer are the only driver sizes available for the AILA system. It would be another $158 K in R&D for Derek to design a 3.5 silk BMR and an 8" woofer! Sure be nice though.
So that leaves me with the ultimate choice.
Do I sit back for about 5-8 years with my worn out NSB arrays, get my house paid off, daughter off to college, newer vehicle and save a little each month to buy the AILA, which would indeed be my dream system.
Or do I do all the responsible items above, but instead use that bit of discretionary income to build my own All Aspiring Array system. It probably would never reach the level of the AILA, but it would sound better then anything I ever heard before! Would it have enough of the mind relaxing, non-fatiguing traits of the AILA system, to be worth while? Hard to say. Most driver choices use rubber surrounds. The Aura uses foam and the Fostex uses a polycarbonate urethane blended foam, what ever that means. And this is considering only one unique aspect of Derek's system. Would it be a fun adventure? It sure would. Would I still consider the AILA system later on. I sure would.
If I was a logical person and wanted the most cost effective way to the ultimate audio system, I would pursue other creative adventures, save my money and buy Derek's kit. This would not be much of a DIY audio thread if I was to do that. The thing is, I am more passionate then I am logical, so we will have to see. I am sure there are people watching this thread, hoping that I will decide to build something.
Any thoughts anyone?
Allen
So, lets say $5.4 K for the arrays
I have the Buffalo III DAC kit at $500 (I got a deal on Swap meets)
I need 3 more IVY output stages to finish the 8-channel version of this DAC - $270
I need the USBStreamer (miniDSP) to get the 4 - 8 channels of decoded Dolby or DTS True HD to the DAC: $105
I also need DSP: miniSharc: $185
So DSP and DAC total is: $1060 ($1360 if You pay full-price for the Buffalo III kit)
For the two-way Fast Arrays, one would need 4 Hypex Ncore amps @ appox $550 each. So that is $2200 for amps. (With the conventional subs, one could get away with a pair of Hypex ucd400HG at $400 for the pair - bringing the cost down to $1500 for amps. On the cheap, one could go with the Behringer
, but I will not go there!)So The All Aspiring Array System comes to $8660. This does not include Star Spikes and the such yet.
I am not including wood or chassis materials yet, because those are not included with OverKill's kits either. I am doing this exercise for a couple of reasons:
First off, I am really brainstorming what is possible building the floor to ceiling near field line array using some of the highest performing products available to us as DIY artists. On many levels, we are very limited, to what we have available due to the small market niche we represent.
I also wanted to compare the alternate possibilities to the AILA system Derek has proposed. In my mind, there is no comparison. We are comparing apples to oranges. The components in his system have been fully customized and refined to the Nth degree with no compromises. The research and development alone is astounding! Derek saw the promise of the a new technology and took it to the next level, and built a whole system around it. Do I think his AILA system is worth 16,000 pounds? You bet ya! Just considering the physical aspect of it. My Fostex build with Alpair bass array has a total Sd of 2665. The AILA system has about 4680 Sd (I low balled the 6 - 12" mid-basses at 500 cm sq each). And the fact that all the components making up the system are class leading. I am thinking there is nothing to upgrade once one buys this kit... Do I need the SPL and Size of a 4680 Sd for my room? Probably not, in that way it is Overkill. But I do need the array height, and it just so happens, the 4.5 silk BMR and 12" woofer are the only driver sizes available for the AILA system. It would be another $158 K in R&D for Derek to design a 3.5 silk BMR and an 8" woofer! Sure be nice though.
So that leaves me with the ultimate choice.
Do I sit back for about 5-8 years with my worn out NSB arrays, get my house paid off, daughter off to college, newer vehicle and save a little each month to buy the AILA, which would indeed be my dream system.
Or do I do all the responsible items above, but instead use that bit of discretionary income to build my own All Aspiring Array system. It probably would never reach the level of the AILA, but it would sound better then anything I ever heard before! Would it have enough of the mind relaxing, non-fatiguing traits of the AILA system, to be worth while? Hard to say. Most driver choices use rubber surrounds. The Aura uses foam and the Fostex uses a polycarbonate urethane blended foam, what ever that means. And this is considering only one unique aspect of Derek's system. Would it be a fun adventure? It sure would. Would I still consider the AILA system later on. I sure would.
If I was a logical person and wanted the most cost effective way to the ultimate audio system, I would pursue other creative adventures, save my money and buy Derek's kit. This would not be much of a DIY audio thread if I was to do that. The thing is, I am more passionate then I am logical, so we will have to see. I am sure there are people watching this thread, hoping that I will decide to build something.
Any thoughts anyone?
Allen
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This is not only the Silk BMRs, it is the line source behavior of the arrays too. You have a real treat coming yourself with the AILA system. Silk BMR's floor to ceiling for true full-range near-field listening!
Maybe I'm just being sceptical here but I'd like to first see some measurements from those magical silk surround BMR's. From the solo BMR to the all out corrected Line Array.
Do I think they show promise? Of coarse! But I'd like to see what it does before going overboard.
It looks like you're in love already Allen. It would take a little more convincing for me to get to that point. Can you even sleep at night (or day in your case)?
Do I think they show promise? Of coarse! But I'd like to see what it does before going overboard.
It looks like you're in love already Allen. It would take a little more convincing for me to get to that point. Can you even sleep at night (or day in your case
)?
Can you even sleep at night (or day in your case
No
Truth be said, it is a Love Hate thing. I am realizing that what I really Aspire to have is the journey to create my dream system like Derek. I Love the journey he is on. If I buy the AILA system, I feel I am giving up the hope to achieve anything...
...The system I build probably will not sound as good as the AILA system, but I will treasure it, because I Lovingly created it. And I am thinking, it will be the best system I have personally ever heard. If after that, I want to "retire" from doing DIY audio, and I still want something better, I will buy the AILA system. But in all honesty, I would really like a shot at designing my own audio master piece.
I would really like to try Derek's silk BMR's, at least include a pair in the driver blow outs, but ethically speaking, I do not think that is possible.
That is the Hate part....May God Bless us all on our journeys
Allen
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Its the journey not the destination....
Hey Allen,
I think your right, in DIY audio the years of learning and the blood sweat and tears are a vital part of the experience, they all add greatly to the satisfaction of sitting down and listening to the music.
This is totally different from commercial audio where all that counts is the very best performance & reliability (Pro audio) plus a balance of features / aesthetics in the commercial / custom install and domestic sector.
Enjoy the journey and god bless all musicians and the gear geeks like us!
Cheers
Derek.
Hey Allen,
I think your right, in DIY audio the years of learning and the blood sweat and tears are a vital part of the experience, they all add greatly to the satisfaction of sitting down and listening to the music.
This is totally different from commercial audio where all that counts is the very best performance & reliability (Pro audio) plus a balance of features / aesthetics in the commercial / custom install and domestic sector.
Enjoy the journey and god bless all musicians and the gear geeks like us!
Cheers
Derek.
I can testify to that, nothing better than to run tests, do the work and get to the enjoyment part as a result.
Never forget, it's all about the music!
Allen, after finding another test on the 10F 8424 G00 I'm subtracting my concerns about off axis response. On Scan speaks page: Scan-Speak 10F/8424G00
There's a link to the 2012 test of Klang und Ton:
http://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/reviews/10f8424g00-KlangTon2012-2.pdf
With it's superior CSD compared to a TC9 and this off axis plot I would have no reason not to use it for an all out line array. The stated X-max of 2.6 mm and x-mech of 7mm helps too! http://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/10f-8424g00.pdf
Price is the only factor I can think of to not have it in your test. But other than that, this is the driver that would get my vote. I'd probably run it full range and only use subs for the bottom octave if needed. Up until now I had not seen convincing off axis data from 0 to 30 degree. This test from Klang und Ton is enough to warrant a test though.
There's a link to the 2012 test of Klang und Ton:
http://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/reviews/10f8424g00-KlangTon2012-2.pdf
With it's superior CSD compared to a TC9 and this off axis plot I would have no reason not to use it for an all out line array. The stated X-max of 2.6 mm and x-mech of 7mm helps too! http://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/10f-8424g00.pdf
Price is the only factor I can think of to not have it in your test. But other than that, this is the driver that would get my vote. I'd probably run it full range and only use subs for the bottom octave if needed. Up until now I had not seen convincing off axis data from 0 to 30 degree. This test from Klang und Ton is enough to warrant a test though.
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10F and CSS confusions...
Okay, this is a clarification post, because I got confused with some of these abbreviations, so others may be as well...
First off: 10F
With the Scanspeak 10F there are two models: 10F/8414G-10 and 10F/8424G00. The 10F/8424G00 also goes under the name 10WB 0824-G00. The 8414G-10 is $65 each and the 8424G00 is $95 each.
With the $30 difference between these drivers, I would really like to know more about the differences between the two, especially in terms of listening impressions. The 8424G00 has a little more driving force with a stronger magnet. Both of these drivers show a lot of potential, although I have not found a CSD on the 8414G-10 version yet. But, I can say, I do like what I see on the 8424G00 in off-axis response, CSD and distortion. This driver does appear to fit the original goal of this project, in that it can be ran down to 80 Hz, but I do not know for sure, as the distortion measurements only go down to 300 Hz. The Fostex has a slightly better CSD at 300 Hz, but its distortion raises quickly after that point. But given that I can build the FF85wk array as a FAst (with an Alpair 12 bass line) for the same price as the 8424G00 array, this would make for a very interesting comparison. I do like the idea of a slimmer 1-way array cabinet.
10F/8424G00 - 25/channel @ $2145 or $4289 for the pair
3.24 Mms = 81 Kg, total Sd 925 cm sq (based on Klang & Ton specs)
I could start out running this system full-range, esp for music. Still would eventually add sub-woofers, esp for movies. I am not sure at this point if I would go with the 12 Daytons, if I did, I would want 2/channel, just to get the Sd up to the same as the array. Do not like the 211.9 Kg cabinets these require. I am curious to try Derek's idea, with using a pro driver in a small cabinet with a high Fb and EQing the bass up. I am thinking I can find some lighter Mms, still get the 907.5 Sd to match the array, and have lighter drivers to boot. Can explore this later and compare to the 12 Daytons I am building for my brother's system.
10F/8414-G10 - 25/channel @ $1460 or $2921 for the pair
2.93 Mms = 74 Kg, total Sd 913 cm sq (based on published specs)
$1368 difference. I would really like to find some more information about this driver...
Now: CSS
When I was reading the BMR thread, CSS was referenced as a manufacture of BMRs. As it happens, I thought CSS was Creative Sound Solutions. As there were no BMRs on Creative's website, I figured they no longer manufactured them. But the CSS on the BMR thread is refering to Cotswold Sound Systems. They in fact only manufacture BMRs I have no idea what the prices are (You have to email them), but at least I found some additional options.
CSS
All and all, I disqualified most of the drivers because the Qts was high. And comparing the on-axis response to the "calculated" power response on the spec sheets really did not show these to be any better then the FF85wk or SD65WBAC between 2 kHz - 10 kHz. They are better above 10 kHz. Of course, this is all speculation, as the power response is "calculated". Also, there are no real photos of the drivers, only computer renderings. I would like to see something more real.
But here is a 2 1/2" BMR46 N4Y, which is pretty close to the 3" Tectonic I am considering.
http://www.cotswoldsoundsystems.com/specifications/CSS_Specification_Sheet_BMR46_N4Y_r1.pdf
With 36 of these on one channel, I end up an Sd of 598.32, so less then the 705.6 of the Tectonic. But this option does have one advantage in that the bezel is flat, smooth and square.
I like that! But not sure if it would be worth the extra cost to have it shipped from England to the US. I know this is a challenge a lot of You run into with international shipping from the US. The BMR46 N4Y would have to be pretty good to justify the expense. It would need to out due the Fostex and Scanspeak listed above!
Okay, this is a clarification post, because I got confused with some of these abbreviations, so others may be as well...
First off: 10F
With the Scanspeak 10F there are two models: 10F/8414G-10 and 10F/8424G00. The 10F/8424G00 also goes under the name 10WB 0824-G00. The 8414G-10 is $65 each and the 8424G00 is $95 each.
With the $30 difference between these drivers, I would really like to know more about the differences between the two, especially in terms of listening impressions. The 8424G00 has a little more driving force with a stronger magnet. Both of these drivers show a lot of potential, although I have not found a CSD on the 8414G-10 version yet. But, I can say, I do like what I see on the 8424G00 in off-axis response, CSD and distortion. This driver does appear to fit the original goal of this project, in that it can be ran down to 80 Hz, but I do not know for sure, as the distortion measurements only go down to 300 Hz. The Fostex has a slightly better CSD at 300 Hz, but its distortion raises quickly after that point. But given that I can build the FF85wk array as a FAst (with an Alpair 12 bass line) for the same price as the 8424G00 array, this would make for a very interesting comparison. I do like the idea of a slimmer 1-way array cabinet.
10F/8424G00 - 25/channel @ $2145 or $4289 for the pair
3.24 Mms = 81 Kg, total Sd 925 cm sq (based on Klang & Ton specs)
I could start out running this system full-range, esp for music. Still would eventually add sub-woofers, esp for movies. I am not sure at this point if I would go with the 12 Daytons, if I did, I would want 2/channel, just to get the Sd up to the same as the array. Do not like the 211.9 Kg cabinets these require. I am curious to try Derek's idea, with using a pro driver in a small cabinet with a high Fb and EQing the bass up. I am thinking I can find some lighter Mms, still get the 907.5 Sd to match the array, and have lighter drivers to boot. Can explore this later and compare to the 12 Daytons I am building for my brother's system.
10F/8414-G10 - 25/channel @ $1460 or $2921 for the pair
2.93 Mms = 74 Kg, total Sd 913 cm sq (based on published specs)
$1368 difference. I would really like to find some more information about this driver...
Now: CSS
When I was reading the BMR thread, CSS was referenced as a manufacture of BMRs. As it happens, I thought CSS was Creative Sound Solutions. As there were no BMRs on Creative's website, I figured they no longer manufactured them. But the CSS on the BMR thread is refering to Cotswold Sound Systems. They in fact only manufacture BMRs
I have no idea what the prices are (You have to email them), but at least I found some additional options. CSS
All and all, I disqualified most of the drivers because the Qts was high. And comparing the on-axis response to the "calculated" power response on the spec sheets really did not show these to be any better then the FF85wk or SD65WBAC between 2 kHz - 10 kHz. They are better above 10 kHz. Of course, this is all speculation, as the power response is "calculated". Also, there are no real photos of the drivers, only computer renderings. I would like to see something more real.
But here is a 2 1/2" BMR46 N4Y, which is pretty close to the 3" Tectonic I am considering.
http://www.cotswoldsoundsystems.com/specifications/CSS_Specification_Sheet_BMR46_N4Y_r1.pdf
With 36 of these on one channel, I end up an Sd of 598.32, so less then the 705.6 of the Tectonic. But this option does have one advantage in that the bezel is flat, smooth and square.
I like that! But not sure if it would be worth the extra cost to have it shipped from England to the US. I know this is a challenge a lot of You run into with international shipping from the US. The BMR46 N4Y would have to be pretty good to justify the expense. It would need to out due the Fostex and Scanspeak listed above!
For an all out array, would you modify the bezel into a "truncated" format for better driver spacing?
I could fit 30/channel and up the Sd to 1110 cm sq. At this level, the added cost is irrelevant (apart from possible "accidents" ).
Allen
I'd have to have one in hand to know for sure but I'd say yes!
The 10F 8424G00 is the one to get if you ask me. From all impressions around the net that's the one to beat. I basically see it as a TC9 on steroids. It seems to do everything I like about the TC9, but better. You'd have to test it though. Make sure you like the sound. Paper and Fiberglass do sound different to me.
Distortion down lower on the 10F can be viewed here: http://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/reviews/10F-8424G00-KlangTon2010-2.pdf
Compare that to the TC9 and you'll know you should be able to get similar results to my line array. 80 Hz will be easy
.
10F/8414G10 KLANG+TON: http://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/reviews/10-8414G10-KlangTon2013-5.pdf
10F/8414G10 VOICE COIL: http://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/reviews/10F-8414G10-VoiceCoil_2013-12.pdf
10F/8414G10 Troels Gravesen: 5F8422T01-10F8414G10 and his implementation in a 3 way build ScanSpeak-3W-Discovery.
Add a fast model 10F/8424G00 verse 10F/8410G10, in sealed box 8410 throw lower extension when they both offered same Q 0,707 driver/box conditions.
Regarding SB65WBAC25-4 can't help how it sound the picture shown was a pair i supported xrk971 and when arrived he returned me the nice picture where it was shut laying beside his A7.3.
Had a pair 10F/8424G00 more than a week now and seems as wesayso say a TC9FD on steroids but still like TC9FD as much they both throw great data but perceived sound is very different at critical listening, xrk971 shared a lot of CSDs at this link and at same thread go a couple pages back and see more data http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...-comparison-3in-5in-drivers-round-2-a-26.html.
Have good investigations
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Allen,Okay, this is a clarification post, because I got confused with some of these abbreviations, so others may be as well...
First off: 10F
With the Scanspeak 10F there are two models: 10F/8414G-10 and 10F/8424G00. The 10F/8424G00 also goes under the name 10WB 0824-G00. The 8414G-10 is $65 each and the 8424G00 is $95 each.
With the $30 difference between these drivers, I would really like to know more about the differences between the two, especially in terms of listening impressions. The 8424G00 has a little more driving force with a stronger magnet. Both of these drivers show a lot of potential, although I have not found a CSD on the 8414G-10 version yet. But, I can say, I do like what I see on the 8424G00 in off-axis response, CSD and distortion. This driver does appear to fit the original goal of this project, in that it can be ran down to 80 Hz, but I do not know for sure, as the distortion measurements only go down to 300 Hz. The Fostex has a slightly better CSD at 300 Hz, but its distortion raises quickly after that point. But given that I can build the FF85wk array as a FAst (with an Alpair 12 bass line) for the same price as the 8424G00 array, this would make for a very interesting comparison. I do like the idea of a slimmer 1-way array cabinet.
10F/8424G00 - 25/channel @ $2145 or $4289 for the pair
3.24 Mms = 81 Kg, total Sd 925 cm sq (based on Klang & Ton specs)
I could start out running this system full-range, esp for music. Still would eventually add sub-woofers, esp for movies. I am not sure at this point if I would go with the 12 Daytons, if I did, I would want 2/channel, just to get the Sd up to the same as the array. Do not like the 211.9 Kg cabinets these require. I am curious to try Derek's idea, with using a pro driver in a small cabinet with a high Fb and EQing the bass up. I am thinking I can find some lighter Mms, still get the 907.5 Sd to match the array, and have lighter drivers to boot. Can explore this later and compare to the 12 Daytons I am building for my brother's system.
10F/8414-G10 - 25/channel @ $1460 or $2921 for the pair
2.93 Mms = 74 Kg, total Sd 913 cm sq (based on published specs)
$1368 difference. I would really like to find some more information about this driver...
Now: CSS
When I was reading the BMR thread, CSS was referenced as a manufacture of BMRs. As it happens, I thought CSS was Creative Sound Solutions. As there were no BMRs on Creative's website, I figured they no longer manufactured them. But the CSS on the BMR thread is refering to Cotswold Sound Systems. They in fact only manufacture BMRs
CSS
All and all, I disqualified most of the drivers because the Qts was high. And comparing the on-axis response to the "calculated" power response on the spec sheets really did not show these to be any better then the FF85wk or SD65WBAC between 2 kHz - 10 kHz. They are better above 10 kHz. Of course, this is all speculation, as the power response is "calculated". Also, there are no real photos of the drivers, only computer renderings. I would like to see something more real.
But here is a 2 1/2" BMR46 N4Y, which is pretty close to the 3" Tectonic I am considering.
http://www.cotswoldsoundsystems.com/specifications/CSS_Specification_Sheet_BMR46_N4Y_r1.pdf
With 36 of these on one channel, I end up an Sd of 598.32, so less then the 705.6 of the Tectonic. But this option does have one advantage in that the bezel is flat, smooth and square.
You probably already know about these, but since you mentioned Tectonics BMR, I wanted to let you know about these as well.
http://www.parts-express.com/tecton...n-4b-bmr-3-full-range-speaker-4-ohm--297-2157
These are 3" drivers with a Neo magnet. I am not knowledgeable enough to tell you how good these actually are, but these are pretty much the best that I could find through a convenient US retailer.
I am in the middle of building a simple center channel with all carbon fiber enclosure with 6 of these drivers. They seem to be working fine, but that's a very subjective opinion.
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