JJ- Dan the sound man has been following my guitar for years and he loves it.
Art - Dan told me he tried everything to make that guitar sound better, and it just would not sound great.
I believe him, I have heard too many piezo acoustics that sound absolutely terrible in my humble opinion. I know some people will not agree with me, but I am holding. When something sounds great I love it, and spread the word, when it sounds like ****, I say it.
Art I disagree that a good sound man can always make a shitty guitar sound good, you can't polish a terd. Maybe my ears are overly sensitive to bad sounding guitars, but I have heard it way too much. It is never when it is just acoustic, always when electronics alter the sound. I am telling you this guitar sounded so bad I could barely get through one song, nobody else in the audience seems to care.
The good news is Abbie Thomas and her band ROCKED this afternoon, see link below. I know this is not a great recording from my iPhone about 25 feet away, but man does she have a great voice, and the band was tight and loose at the same time, kind of funky, a little jazzy, rocking, reminded me a bit of "The Band" from back in the day. Her voice is effortless, beautiful and powerful, what a sweet treat for the afternoon.
One thing I think we can all agree on is the Corvette that took home best in class is a real beauty!
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yX-RSoUHQqNcR0DUJuLnOTreK2Xp4bI0/view?usp=sharing
Abbie Thomas
https://abbiethomasmusic.com
Fresh off of her 2023 JMA Artist of the Year award at The Grand Ole Opry, Abbie Thomas, is a rising singer songwriter who is gaining international attention and nominations for live performances, lyricism and visual content.
Art - Dan told me he tried everything to make that guitar sound better, and it just would not sound great.
I believe him, I have heard too many piezo acoustics that sound absolutely terrible in my humble opinion. I know some people will not agree with me, but I am holding. When something sounds great I love it, and spread the word, when it sounds like ****, I say it.
Art I disagree that a good sound man can always make a shitty guitar sound good, you can't polish a terd. Maybe my ears are overly sensitive to bad sounding guitars, but I have heard it way too much. It is never when it is just acoustic, always when electronics alter the sound. I am telling you this guitar sounded so bad I could barely get through one song, nobody else in the audience seems to care.
The good news is Abbie Thomas and her band ROCKED this afternoon, see link below. I know this is not a great recording from my iPhone about 25 feet away, but man does she have a great voice, and the band was tight and loose at the same time, kind of funky, a little jazzy, rocking, reminded me a bit of "The Band" from back in the day. Her voice is effortless, beautiful and powerful, what a sweet treat for the afternoon.
One thing I think we can all agree on is the Corvette that took home best in class is a real beauty!
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yX-RSoUHQqNcR0DUJuLnOTreK2Xp4bI0/view?usp=sharing
Abbie Thomas
Abbie Thomas
https://abbiethomasmusic.com
Fresh off of her 2023 JMA Artist of the Year award at The Grand Ole Opry, Abbie Thomas, is a rising singer songwriter who is gaining international attention and nominations for live performances, lyricism and visual content.
Turd polishing is always messy, I said a good sound man can make a lousy sounding guitar sound decent, not great
I don't disagree with the fact that some piezo pickups have terrible response (especially into passive direct boxes with transformer input impedance appropriate for magnetic pickups..), and even those with good response are often deployed in such a manner that without serious surgical EQ they may sound terrible. Some acoustic set-ups are so bad I have put a mic on the instrument rather than make listeners suffer.
I've heard great acoustic guitars sound terrible, and ones with so-so acoustic sound excellent using piezo pickups.
Yep, I hear all that Art, I am sure you have heard many more guitar setups than myself. I am starting to wonder about the terrible guitar I heard. I thought maybe it was a low end Martin, but I was just going by the headstock. Maybe is was a Chinese knockoff made from who knows what kind of material, that would do it. Or maybe it was a very low quality piezo, not sure, but it will be hard for me to forget that awful sound.
When I deal with the Chinese in the automotive manufacturing world, man they are no slouches, they have come a long way and are pretty damn good on the design and build engineering side. Now musical instruments, that seems to be a different animal. Personally I usually prefer to buy American, but some of the Chinese devices I have tried are just not cutting it, but I have never tried one of their guitars. I have seen some amazingly low prices, makes you wonder. Anybody out there care to comment on Chinese guitars?
Oh yeah, Elvis was pretty hokey, but that is to be expected from a man in a jumpsuit.
When I deal with the Chinese in the automotive manufacturing world, man they are no slouches, they have come a long way and are pretty damn good on the design and build engineering side. Now musical instruments, that seems to be a different animal. Personally I usually prefer to buy American, but some of the Chinese devices I have tried are just not cutting it, but I have never tried one of their guitars. I have seen some amazingly low prices, makes you wonder. Anybody out there care to comment on Chinese guitars?
Oh yeah, Elvis was pretty hokey, but that is to be expected from a man in a jumpsuit.
Or maybe it was a decent pickup plugged into a passive DI (direct injection) box with too low of an impedance (typically 100-300Kohms) which will cut the low end and create nasty upper response peaks, and generally result in crappy, hard to fix sound similar to what you have described.Or maybe it was a very low quality piezo, not sure, but it will be hard for me to forget that awful sound.
A mixing console's inputs would generally be considerably lower impedance than a passive DI's.
Take a look at your Fishman preamp impedance, it's probably 10-20Mohms (10 to 20 million ohms).
Maybe next time you hear crappy sound you will remember to look at what the guitar is plugged in to, rather than blaming the pickup.
The Chinese can build as good quality guitars as anyone else.
My brother bought his son a Behringer (made in China) Stratocaster knock-off guitar and amp for $99. This was probably 20 years ago, when an "American Made" Stratocaster may have have been around 10 times that at a retail price.
The Behringer guitar had as good, if not better action than most of the "American Made" Stratocasters I've played.
Hard to tell how good it sounded, considering what it was plugged in to, but it was not bad.
Art
I heard their standard no name $500 dreadnought - with the remarkable abalone inlay all over it - can be pretty good after pro setup.
The reviewer even speculated that they are some craftsman's masterpiece or manufacturing's first article, as who does that level of craftsmanship as on par for $500? Note - these / that run may no longer be available anymore; I think they were even on Amzn when first happening.
I have a Cordoba C5 made in China, a couple of Odessa's made in China - that guy had them made in China before made in China got popular. Of course, if you count Taiwan as made in China, that includes a LOT of Yamaha guitars.
I feel their marketing isnt very good. They dont tell you anything about the instrument - I assume because they dont know or dont know what to say. I was tempted by a $200 SG knockoff - with body seated neck joint, versus removable with the 4 screws - but, as nice as its red mahogany finish looked, they didnt say much about it; like that joint, how it was done, how it improves the guitars response versus a bolt on - nothing technical. Like all that's too much trouble - either buy it undescribed, unheard or not - we sell so many anyway, we dont care.
You're lucky to land an Epiphone SG with a glued neck / body for <$500 these days, as everyone chasing the used market recognizes it, everyone wants it over the more common bolt-ons. I assume it would play closer to a real Gibson SG. Had one in my 20's - when tuned to concert pitch, it came alive in responsiveness and sustain.
Maybe the Chinese one behaves like that too. If so, they should say so. It's the essence of the whole guitar, IMHO.
JJ - my Guild that I bought about 15 years ago was made in China, pretty damn nice, and I know they have been doing it for many years, but now I am seeing more China brand name guitars, hmmm, a mixed event for sure, it is getting interesting.
Art - about your comment above:
"Or maybe it was a decent pickup plugged into a passive DI (direct injection) box with too low of an impedance (typically 100-300Kohms) which will cut the low end and create nasty upper response peaks, and generally result in crappy, hard to fix sound similar to what you have described"
That sounds right on the money, that is exactly what it sounded like to me. Being in the audience I could not get a good look, but might be able to get that info. I have heard it before from other acoustic guitars, so I will pay closer attention. If I was playing that guitar and heard it, I would be like WTF, I can't let that get out there...
Art - about your comment above:
"Or maybe it was a decent pickup plugged into a passive DI (direct injection) box with too low of an impedance (typically 100-300Kohms) which will cut the low end and create nasty upper response peaks, and generally result in crappy, hard to fix sound similar to what you have described"
That sounds right on the money, that is exactly what it sounded like to me. Being in the audience I could not get a good look, but might be able to get that info. I have heard it before from other acoustic guitars, so I will pay closer attention. If I was playing that guitar and heard it, I would be like WTF, I can't let that get out there...
Found an example on ebay; https://www.ebay.com/itm/375484310943 Supposedly nice for the money. There's many others without the ornate inlay, at around the same price point.
Joe,
Yes, if you were playing your guitar without an impedance matching pre-amp ($$) and plugged it into a passive DI, or the usual mid impedance mixing board, or a guitar amp optimized for magnetic pickups, you would be like WTF, this sucks. Oh well, the show must go on..
What would you do about it, now you know that the piezo pickup is not why it sucks?
Art
I saw a YT video where this guy uses an IR to get his piezo bridge pickup to sound like a mic in front of the guitar. In a room no less...
I didnt watch it to the end. I wonder what the input Z is, of those few boxes he showed, which can implement the IR data as a RT effect?
Ask for a mic when you need an active DI..
And you'll get a cardioid vocal mic that adds or subtracts bass (the proximity effect) as guitar moves closer or further away from it.
You obviously don't know what a vocal monitor sounds like through a guitar mic, so I'll try to explain.
The guitar mic picks up almost the same level of vocal monitor as guitar, so the vocals now sound like they have a comb filter applied, like the example below, only an octave or so higher depending on the distance between the vocal and guitar mic:
A sound engineer can't fix comb filtering with EQ.
Mean while, a 2" movement of the guitar (in any direction) in relation to the mic can make +/-6dB frequency response variations in the sound of the guitar. The sound engineer can't change the EQ to compensate for the guitar movements as the guitar sound goes from "tin" to "mud" with every other strum or chord change.
I wouldn't use that "softer feeling" (muddy) mic emulation live unless I wanted to bury the guitar in a mix.
And a L/R pan of the emulation and direct when combined to mono (as most PAs are..) can sound completely different (probably comb filtered..) than what the performer hears in his stereo headphones or in ear monitors.
Back to the regularly scheduled programming..
Art
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Art - would you agree that most guitar players that ask for a mic do not understand what you are describing above? I would not be surprised if that is true, and sound engineers are not very happy trying to put up with these requests. How about a mic attached to the end of my guitar between the two horns with the guitar player sitting down and not moving much, I mean it is not an electric guitar with screaming solos being moved all over the stage.
I also understand that the show must go on, and the engineer can only do so much given the time available. If an engineer told me flat out what their best approach for now is, please use it, I would say: I believe you, OK.
Now playing in a studio, or at home, or in a small jam session, different story.
I also understand that the show must go on, and the engineer can only do so much given the time available. If an engineer told me flat out what their best approach for now is, please use it, I would say: I believe you, OK.
Now playing in a studio, or at home, or in a small jam session, different story.
I swung by the cafe where I play last Sunday afternoon. Different guy running things. His vocal monitor was so loud, I believe what you describe could have happened, with his SM58s on vocal and my guitar being mic'd. Of course, I have no idea what it sounded like out in front of the stage, but the level of the vocal monitor did give me a sudden vocal-shy reaction. My own inexperience with performing live.
The Friday guy prefers to have the guitars plugged into his little Fender amp, which is also so loud but 8' behind me. Both guys dry as a bone - no compression, no reverb.
As a performer, you have to manage-through the setup you're provided. It isnt easy too, being completely different than, say, what you're used to playing through in your own practice environment. "Let's give it up for Joe" and you start playing your 3 songs. And try not to cringe, if how it sounds is completely foreign to you.
I ask for a mic to get rid of the loud amp behind me; seems I can hear my guitar just fine from the mains and room. Admittedly, I could bring my own DI box and cords and ask to plug into the house owned mixer - there's plenty of open channels - to shed the guitar mic.
Sometimes I like to use the Seagull, strung half nylon, half steel which has no pickup. Sometimes I use the gut string guitar with the built in "trans-acoustic" reverb and other performers have told me you can hear the effect, mic'd. Sometimes I use a gut Suzuki, with a Fishman piezo - and no control panel on the guitar.
Yes, most amateur musicians have little idea what sound reinforcement is about, and most "sound engineers" that are dealing with amateur musicians have only a rudimentary grasp of it.
If the sound engineer is not using headphones to cue up and adjust an input before anyone else hears it, beware.
The sound system would be far better served with the pickup's output (through a proper interface) than your FHAG horn sound, which won't have any highs to speak of.
A mic between the two horns would probably be worse than in front of one, a cardioid mic's off-axis sound is never as good as on axis, and the bass would be accentuated by as much as +6dB between the horns, while highs would be attenuated.
Then again, if like an electric guitar player, you have adjusted your amp so the speaker output, and only the speaker (not the wonderful sound board) produces the sound you want (listening through flat response sound isolating headphones) that would be OK, long as the mic stays in place.
If the engineer makes most of the performers sound good, you should go along with them.
If not, they may mess your sound up worse if you ask them to try something different
.Absolutely.
At home all you need to do is please yourself, in a studio you can listen back and correct mistakes, in a small jam session you can adjust to others, but when you are on stage, your sound is in two distinctly different environments.
Better to have none than too much of either.
And neither should be used in the monitors, unless specifically requested.
If there is only one monitor mix, using the guitar amp may be a better choice, gives you control of your tone and stage volume.
Of course, everyone has probably messed with the amp, and getting it to sound right could take as long as your song...
That said, the acoustic guitar should be going through an active DI to the PA, and looped to the amp. The amp's speaker should be miced up as well, to achieve a proper blend.
Art
All sounds pretty complicated. I imagine the setup rules for a singer with a single acoustic guitar are quite different than having bass, drums, keyboard all happening too. Being alone, there's no stage racket from the other instruments I honestly need to hear my voice and guitar over. More like a street busking setup, with the little battery powered box replaced by a pair of EV AC powered PA speakers on stands.
Accommodating different paradigms expected from different performers; one has a sound hole mag pickup, another has their stock Taylor Baby pickup, another has no pickup / whatever the guitar came with - while - one is used to playing with a full electric band; wants a solid monitor, loud amp behind them; another plays best when it seems to them like their just sitting on their front porch, guitar in hand; "just make the audience hear me".
It must be tough to make up a "one size fits all" SR setup and have everyone be happy.