Well then one needs to play music on it constantly to make it sound right...
Nothing sounds good when cold - unless it is supposed to run cool
My class AB amp doesn't differ either from being warm or cold.
Not sure what they use Pano , never looked into it. Ohhh almost forgot , i heard a Pr of MonoB Kenwoods ( ICE) version, on a pr of ML did not compare this one , but my friend was having issues with them shutting off...
regards,
Bel Canto recommends that you do not shut off their amps, my friend keeps his on 24/7 ...
You probably mean ~125W/stereo.
Me had a listen to a Burmester car surround system, mixed AB and Class D.
More impressive than an All-Ice Bling&O system.
In turn, which was a biggy improvement over a Bose surround setup.
(i'd take 80% efficiency for 300W over 60% any day)
a.wayne:
Ha! In stock form, I agree.... not great. but it's not that bad with these mods:
Marinco male, ecosse big purple power cord, 32A IXYS Hexfred, 4-pole Jensen Electrolytics, all Electrolytic PCB caps are Elna Silmic II, all smaller pF range caps are now amtrans, larger values are Vishay-roderstein 1837. TIS97 input diff pair (Q1/Q2) are hfe matched MPSA06 (selecting gain of 250), and Q3/Q4 are hfe matched MPSA93.
The last two mods are on the way: Caddock resistors in signal and feedback paths, and silver micas on output replaced with Mundorf Silver/oil.
I'd not use a 4-pole again. It's crazy expensive, and too close to the working voltage. I can't shake the sense that in this amp, it's just bling.
Believe me, it sounds a heck of a lot better now than it ever did. I can listen to CDs now without being chased from the room!
Ha! In stock form, I agree.... not great. but it's not that bad with these mods:
Marinco male, ecosse big purple power cord, 32A IXYS Hexfred, 4-pole Jensen Electrolytics, all Electrolytic PCB caps are Elna Silmic II, all smaller pF range caps are now amtrans, larger values are Vishay-roderstein 1837. TIS97 input diff pair (Q1/Q2) are hfe matched MPSA06 (selecting gain of 250), and Q3/Q4 are hfe matched MPSA93.
The last two mods are on the way: Caddock resistors in signal and feedback paths, and silver micas on output replaced with Mundorf Silver/oil.
I'd not use a 4-pole again. It's crazy expensive, and too close to the working voltage. I can't shake the sense that in this amp, it's just bling.
Believe me, it sounds a heck of a lot better now than it ever did. I can listen to CDs now without being chased from the room!
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Isn´t the big 5/600W@8ohm ICE modules only for bass applications?
According to Bel Canto´s homepage, their REF1000m only reaches 20kHz whereas their REF500m/s goes up to 70kHz...
I´ve heard the same about AR´s biggest 600W amps too.
No wonder if they sound dreadful in full bandwidth applications if they can´t go any further than 20kHz
So you listen for efficiency .......
Yep .. dont sound like it's a phase linear anymore ....
Isn´t the big 5/600W@8ohm ICE modules only for bass applications?
According to Bel Canto´s homepage, their REF1000m only reaches 20kHz whereas their REF500m/s goes up to 70kHz...
I´ve heard the same about AR´s biggest 600W amps too.
No wonder if they sound dreadful in full bandwidth applications if they can´t go any further than 20kHz
They were the REF500M's and both the top and bottom is where it fails the most and hey 70K
is enuff bandwidth IMO. I have heard many amps with less bandwidth (bgt's) and had good top end ...
Not really, i'm likely an environmentalist's worst nightmare (without counting stereo gear).
But 200W losses do sound impressive enough to me, compared to 75W.
(from a technical point of view, Class D is pretty elegant)
They were the REF500M's and both the top and bottom is where it fails the most and hey 70K
I have heard many amps with less bandwidth (bgt's) and had good top end ...
It seems our understanding of the impact of the frequency extremes on how we percieve audio is very limited indeed. Though our hearing is said to be much less sensitive at the Extremes compared to the mid frequencies (1-4kHz), we are definetely able to distinguishe between very small variations beond the limits of human hearing. I wouldn´t either put to much emphasis on these specs from a manufaturer, but if the measurements are constructed the same way for all ICEPOWER variants, there sure is a stark difference from 90kHZ to 70kHz to ...20kHz -especially considering the related modulation and phase effects that is known to interfere signals way before these -3dB reference points.
Also interesting that extreemes seem to influence on each other; lower max bandwidth often relates to a less defined and much less believable bass reproduction. Strange ins´t it?
a.wayne, i really do appreciate your scepsis concerning class D, and believe to be able to learn from it. But could you please elaborate at bit more on how you percieved the sound of these ICE amps and/or other class D constructions you have encountered?
regards,
I dont think so
It s a mkt cap
For small size cap,you can go for pps cap ( panasonic for example)
I'm not disagreeing from a technical aspect about bandwidth, I'm suggesting it is not as clear cut from a practical situation, one cannot determine that Amp A will have a better top end than Amp B because of the bandwidth.
From my practical experience( was involved in the industry for 20+ yrs) certain topologies have a sonic signature and class-D for sure does...
I have heard only 3 versions of class-D and as asked by Pano i was not then aware of what ICE modules being used , so my comments are about the actual products in practical use.
they are:
1. Bel Canto 500 on Magnapan 1.6
2. Rotel ICE power mono's rated @ 1000 ( 4 ohm load) ML Summits
3. Tripath .. Dunlevy's ( the model i don't recall but they were on stands)
All 3 amplifiers had similar characteristics IMO firstly the bass, lacking of extension vs Class-A or A/AB amplifiers, the top end of the Bel Canto was a bit fierce a bit better on the Rotel and i do not recall the Tripath sounding like that, but all 3 had exhibited similar characteristics on 3 different speakers.
Now all 3 amplifiers were on different speakers and agree not a scientific comparison process, but from experience i would be willing to wager this would play out in most situations .
The positives:
I would also like to say that there is a bit of energy from class-D, very much like live music which is lacking in high bias Class-A amps (not all, but most I have heard) and more akin to good class A, A/B. unfortunately it is accompanied by a lot of grain and noise, of course how open or accurate your speakers are thru the mid/mid/high range will make this a problem and hence i did not hear as much grain thru the Dunlevy's as the Maggies or ML which are far more open and viceral in the Mids than the Dunlevys, so i cannot say Tripath would have better or worst , but the person with the Tripath, upgraded( his words) to Bel Canto mono's and said they were better.
Recently i was looking at an Stereophile review and test on the Bel Canto's and there was some ringing (20k square wave ) which seems to have played out on the 4 ohm Maggies , making the top sound hard and edgy , almost like bad digital...
Synopsis:
IMO Class- D is not there yet and still has a way to go to catch good A/AB which i favor , while Class-a does offer a "smooth sound " it does not capture the Pace of live music as the others, but i can see some favoring it over the sound of Class-D , yes for sure .
Regards,
I can only compare the 10,000 uf I installed against the 5,600 uf that was replaced. It's not a fair comparison, every sonic change would have happened with *any* bigger cap. Except they did sound a bit smoother.
NB: It was the first modification to the unit, before the ceramic caps were removed. The ceramics hid a lot of the changes, as they add distortion.
The downside to the 4-pole is they have a maximum current delivery of 5.8 amps. To get more, you need to parallel the caps. I had no room, so I am stuck with one pair.
I might replace with nichicon, as the voltage of the nichicons are higher (100V vs 80V), and I think they will deliver more current than the jensen.
If you are using more than two, the current delivery restriction should not matter.
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