What tone or arrogance might that be, you ought to read my above post again and my post before that one again too.
Yes, it does indeed sound exactly like Howie started spec'ing iso trans/filter for studio projects since 'last week'.
It is not certain when Howie tried such power conditioning on his home system but it does sound as if it is recent, like how long after 'I concur' on his home system would he wait until spec'ing them for studio projects ?.
Howie has been around audio for 40+ years and he has in all that time never investigated the opinions of others that iso trans/filtering is beneficial ?.....what would stop anyone trying a commonly reported improvement except for financials and/or a learned/entrenched disbelief system ?.
Howie, perhaps you might like to chime in with more info on what you have experienced and when ?. And I have four screened toroidal iso transformers, two are in use, one for Denon AV receiver and one for laptop since looooong ago and another two are portable.......and now about you, how many have iso trans/filters have you auditioned and on what ?.
I don't brag about anything, I just state my findings.
I also find you need a chill pill.....maybe EMR is stressing you out and clouding your outlook and causing your aggressive interactions, the likes of Geoclense would help you.
Dan.
Ok, cross posting......any chance of a copy of that schematic please ?.I know Howie has used such for quite a while. I helped him get the schematic to a Monster 7000 unit when it needed repair. Fortunately, that design is back in production again. Too many people asked for it as nothing equal or better exists to replace it.IMHO naturally
Dan.
...I am not bagging Howie in any way, I am just really surprised that Howie has only now tried the isolation/filtering experiment/audition despite being in audio electronics for a life time like many of us here.
Howie, welcome to the dark side.
Dan.
Dark side? lolol My post was not time specific; being an old guy I discovered this in the mid 1980's when installing Topaz isolation transformers in the studios I was building. Since then I have been using isolation transformers and MIL line filters where the budgets could afford.
They are not dark magic, galvanic isolation has been a really useful tool in both audio transmission as well as AC power transmission since the early 1900s. Breaking chassis ground loops is only one of the benefits, although a big one. They have become increasingly important as AC power systems now carry common-mode noise from many switching supplies which are everywhere.
Cheers,
Howie
Howie, for some solid state guys, transformers are 'dark arts' stuff. Several members frequenting this thread even actively discourage their use. Nothing you can do, they would consider you to have "fallen to the dark side" since the 80s, another associate of JN, Pieter T. and Steve Eddy et al.
For the likes of Richard's design which IIRC includes multiple BP filters plus enclosure etc yes. The screened iso transformers I got off Ebay for $10.00 each (auction sale lot) and filter modules from wrecked gear like aircon outdoor units and washing machines completes my arrangement. IOW the DIYer can do it pretty cheap and the result is more than very well worth while.
Dan.
Dan.
I have a story related to power conditioners based on isolation transformers. 9 years ago we made a listening test between 2 power amplifiers with similar power capabilities, like 2x200W/8ohm. It was a typical sighted test, with a group of people, about 10. First, the amplifiers were tested without a power conditioner. One of the amplifiers was clearly preferred, by listening, attributed as more liquid, more smooth, more pleasing for listening. The other one was considered more screeching, unpleasant. Then the test was replicated with a power conditioner and the sound of both amps was considered quite similar, though the first amp was still a bit preferred. So, it seems that there are units that may benefit from or urgently need a power conditioner and there are units that do not. Don't you think guys it tells something about the design?
For some, but there are others who argue on linearity.
Dan, you are on the wrong thread, cheap does not do justice to John Curl, Blowtorch Preamp or the class of people associated with them. Your post becomes peanut gallery stuff here.
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Well it seems the other list was inverted in comparison so my findings of lacking dynamics is with your final version not the original. Once I figured out the first list was backwards I spent more time on the second comparing 01(original) to 04(final version) and verified my first impression, but in this case your final version is indeed veiled and lacking the originals dynamics (comparatively......the original recording lacks dynamics to start with)
If I could impress a positive spin on it I’d say your process does take out some digital glare and gives a more analog sound but at the expense of clarity and dynamics.
I suppose that’s about as foobarred as it can get, seeing as I didn’t know which was really which.
Sure, and the 'unaffected' amp is an outlier and presumably costlier ?.....otoh expect pretty much all (IME All) consumer gear to benefit from treated power,.....make that all gear, and appropriately rated power treatment done right, can't do any harm, right ?.
Power treatment box need not be prohibitively expensive......industrial filtering, iso tx and a cheap folded metal case with screen printing is pretty much good enough.
Dan.
Linearity? As in a linear power supply being a material source of distortion in an amplifier? In terms of having a power supply or *isolation transformer*? I don't think I've read anything in that realm that would be particularly interesting beyond the benefits/limitations of linear power supplies. I'm personally a big fan of good quality COTS SMPS's, given the demands of modern electronics have really moved that field forward. But that's neither here nor there.
Isolation transformers are regularly needed for entire instrumentation setups, and find their way into medical electronics often enough. Should give one some idea that there's a lot of technical merits to isolation transformers without needing to induce a hint of mumbo jumbo. Yes, they're expensive, which is probably the biggest barrier.
* Battery powered measurement equipment is great for exactly the same reason, and I believe one of our resident retrogrouches (
) on this very thread has gone battery powered for phono and maybe for power amps? Then there's EUVL's fun work on I/V's that rely on batteries.
Ok, so what's the sauce ?.
Dan.
01 - was the original
02 - has cable treated with Goop...
03 - has cable treated with Goop and mineral mix.
04 - has cable treated with Goop, mineral mix and vinyl.
01 - To my ear for an amateur production is as good as can be for the genre/production values and it sounds like any other modern release pretty much......an In The Box production and sounding mechanical/electronic but ok.....
02 - sets a new clarity, new damping and new order/time stability to the sound with greater sense of power/bass and reduced false highs if any, the result is no signature actually, this is my standard sound and preferred for critical listening into mixes/production values and most general listening.
03 - while preserving the 02 timing stability adds a 'white noise' that is not quite white and serves to dither/render the sound and present it as more organic and softer and easy on the ear but in a different way to 02.
04 - adds vinyl into the mix and modifies the 02/03 combo which sets a recognisable signature with rolled out bass, rolled out highs and that 'vinyl' mids quality ie subtle mids emphasis/veiling and odd 'compression/agc'.....this is for one sample of vinyl, there is significant variation in vinyl and shellac formulations.
So I agree 04 screws up dynamics and clarity and is least preferred and sounding Muzak, I can switch between 02 and 03 but mostly prefer 02 for greatest honesty, clarity, dynamics and noise floor of all the recordings.
Thanks for your appraisal, now you know more you may take more note of 02 and 03 sounds and rate them wrt to 01 and 04, maybe you can have some fun with noting/learning the four quite different characters.
Dan.
Dan.
Ok, thanks for that.
01 - was the original
02 - has cable treated with Goop...
03 - has cable treated with Goop and mineral mix.
04 - has cable treated with Goop, mineral mix and vinyl.
01 - To my ear for an amateur production is as good as can be for the genre/production values and it sounds like any other modern release pretty much......an In The Box production and sounding mechanical/electronic but ok.....
02 - sets a new clarity, new damping and new order/time stability to the sound with greater sense of power/bass and reduced false highs if any, the result is no signature actually, this is my standard sound and preferred for critical listening into mixes/production values and most general listening.
03 - while preserving the 02 timing stability adds a 'white noise' that is not quite white and serves to dither/render the sound and present it as more organic and softer and easy on the ear but in a different way to 02.
04 - adds vinyl into the mix and modifies the 02/03 combo which sets a recognisable signature with rolled out bass, rolled out highs and that 'vinyl' mids quality ie subtle mids emphasis/veiling and odd 'compression/agc'.....this is for one sample of vinyl, there is significant variation in vinyl and shellac formulations.
So I agree 04 screws up dynamics and clarity and is least preferred and sounding Muzak, I can switch between 02 and 03 but mostly prefer 02 for greatest honesty, clarity, dynamics and noise floor of all the recordings.
Thanks for your appraisal, now you know more you may take more note of 02 and 03 sounds and rate them wrt to 01 and 04, maybe you can have some fun with noting/learning the four quite different characters.
Dan.
Dan....
The Monster HTPS-7000 is/was the most advanced specifically for audio only line isolation and filtration ever sold. Included are two 200VA ultra isolation transformers made to my spec.
View attachment HTPS-7000_SCH-Rev.D (1).pdf
View attachment HTPS-7000-MKII (1).pdf
With far greater than -100dBv rejection over a wide bandwidth.
View attachment dual xfmr filter response.pdf
Well worth the $1500 retail selling price. Built to last a life time. Heavy duty construction. UL tested and approved, too. Contrary to Scott, I also do Real engineering.
THx-RNMarsh
The Monster HTPS-7000 is/was the most advanced specifically for audio only line isolation and filtration ever sold. Included are two 200VA ultra isolation transformers made to my spec.
View attachment HTPS-7000_SCH-Rev.D (1).pdf
View attachment HTPS-7000-MKII (1).pdf
With far greater than -100dBv rejection over a wide bandwidth.
View attachment dual xfmr filter response.pdf
Well worth the $1500 retail selling price. Built to last a life time. Heavy duty construction. UL tested and approved, too. Contrary to Scott, I also do Real engineering.
THx-RNMarsh
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Agree, they are great units. I have one on the bench to handle grounding while working on dac development, and another for the stereo. Bought both used on ebay.
Can't believe you posted all the attachments though.
Some people pointed to me on several occasions that transformers are less linear compared to resistors and capacitors, that's all.
So you are the level headed guy are you? I've met others with bad aversion to magnetics. Seems to me they consider those using signal transformers as 'dark side followers'. I don't care, I'd use whatever the setup needs to meet the requirement.
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Some units on e-bay need some minor fixing and this will help (blown fuse/MOV etc) . AS for the filter performance, the learning curve would be steep to figure out. like which core materials, saturation levels, frequencies and the custom made triple shielded iso-transformer design et al.... all where the audible performance is at. Not to mention how to build it to pass all UL tests.
THx-RNMarsh
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Yah I tried to get what your laying down but tbh with the amount of compression I can’t play that track loud enough to really evaluate the differences.
If you can find the 16/44.1 flac files of either of these tracks and process them in the same way it would be easier, these tracks are recorded with some fairly expansive headroom.
Attachments
Agreed, the HTPS7000 is great for home systems, I have refurbed quite a few and people are really happy with them. With the demise of Topaz these days I am working with a custom transformer mfgr. for the units I am installing in studios. Their engineer has been designing power transformers for 40 years, and we are both learning anew about the special requirements for optimum magnetics for both isolation transformers and common-mode chokes. It is a fascinating study, but the results have been very worthwhile.
I have to say a large reason for recording studios need for isolated and filtered power has to do with musicians love of classic gear. Believe it or not there are new consoles being made with discrete, class-A single-ended cap coupled circuitry with close to zero PSRR. The reason? The circuit is a paen to a certain early solid state console that made a lot of hit records, and as everybody knows, it is the console that makes a hit record, not the song or musician...
I'm not saying it is not a great sounding bit of gear, but with this equipment superb AC power and power supplies are not an option. Cheers,
Howie
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