hahahaha!!!
probably not only blues, but I'll make this the first song I play on them:
More updates:
on Sunday, i drilled and installed the ports and terminals
And attached the backs to the cabinets
I also installed the K-701 horns and K-53 drivers
And cut new network boards out of some scrap mahogany planks I had in the shop. I gave them a few coats of grain filler; later this week, I’ll sand & seal them and hopefully on thanksgiving, solder up new networks and put everything together. The cabinets alone are as heavy as the H700’s are, completely assembled. This alone may be reason enough to upgrade them from 1.5 to 2.5 with a pair of Kappalite 3012’s.
on Sunday, i drilled and installed the ports and terminals
And attached the backs to the cabinets
I also installed the K-701 horns and K-53 drivers
And cut new network boards out of some scrap mahogany planks I had in the shop. I gave them a few coats of grain filler; later this week, I’ll sand & seal them and hopefully on thanksgiving, solder up new networks and put everything together. The cabinets alone are as heavy as the H700’s are, completely assembled. This alone may be reason enough to upgrade them from 1.5 to 2.5 with a pair of Kappalite 3012’s.
I reconfigured the network and put it on a piece of scrap mahogany that I had in my shop.
First impressions vs my Baby Cornwall 1.0: the damped k701 horn and K-53-K driver make this speaker more forward than the K700/K-55 combo. Staging & imaging is better; vocals and acoustic instruments sound really great. I spiked the cabs as well and had to turn my subwoofers down, as well as turn my power amp down from 90%, to 75%. the solution, per @claudej12000 was to drop the input capacitor value from 2µf, to 1µf and drop the squawker output in the autoformer. That did the trick!
First impressions vs my Baby Cornwall 1.0: the damped k701 horn and K-53-K driver make this speaker more forward than the K700/K-55 combo. Staging & imaging is better; vocals and acoustic instruments sound really great. I spiked the cabs as well and had to turn my subwoofers down, as well as turn my power amp down from 90%, to 75%. the solution, per @claudej12000 was to drop the input capacitor value from 2µf, to 1µf and drop the squawker output in the autoformer. That did the trick!
For version 1.0, @claudej12000 specified an Eminence DeltaPro 12A, which is what I used. For version 2.0, he specced the Eminence Kappalite 3012HO. There’s also an un-ported version that uses the Emminence Deltalite 2512 II, which delivers less bass extension, but improves midrange and mid-bass. Reportedly, there is a version 4.0 in development that digs even deeper in the bass.
I recently picked up a solitary Klipsch K362 for $200 and thought I could flip it, seeing as pairs go for around $1500...
after a month, I didn't have any takers, so I decided to part it out. While photographing the parts, I became curious what the K-604 mid horn might sound like compared to the K701; as @claudej12000 is fond of saying, "A bigger horn is a better horn!"
at first blush, it sounded different, bigger. However, the K66 pro driver was quite a bit, at least 3dB louder than the K-701/K-53 combo, which itself was nearly 6dB louder than the K-55 common in earlier heresies. Still, the change was interesting enough that it warranted further exploration and I built a temporary enclosure out of scrap Baltic birch that i had in my workshop.
Still, it was problematic on a few levels: One, the driver was very forward- the titanium driver in the K-66 is quite bright and is used with the K604 in both 2-way and three-way speakers, with a range that extends from 400Hz, all the way up past 12kHz, meaning that there is quite a bit of driver overlap. I needed a better, yet cost effective solution. The problem is that there aren't too many compression drivers that fit the rubric for use in Klipsch Heritage style speakers. the venerable K-55 is still in production from Atlas Sound under the PD-5VH, but at $190 a piece, it's still more than I wanted to spend. John Allen's A-55-G is very highly regarded, but more expensive yet. the JBL Selenium D 250-X, might have worked, but requires a crossover that's about 2000Hz lower, which I wasn't interested in fiddling with. I was considering just using the K-53 drivers that I had with a screw on adapter, when I found PRV Audio's D270PH-S drivers. Their T/S parameters were roughly comparable to the K55 and were only $35 a piece. Bingo!
after a month, I didn't have any takers, so I decided to part it out. While photographing the parts, I became curious what the K-604 mid horn might sound like compared to the K701; as @claudej12000 is fond of saying, "A bigger horn is a better horn!"
at first blush, it sounded different, bigger. However, the K66 pro driver was quite a bit, at least 3dB louder than the K-701/K-53 combo, which itself was nearly 6dB louder than the K-55 common in earlier heresies. Still, the change was interesting enough that it warranted further exploration and I built a temporary enclosure out of scrap Baltic birch that i had in my workshop.
Still, it was problematic on a few levels: One, the driver was very forward- the titanium driver in the K-66 is quite bright and is used with the K604 in both 2-way and three-way speakers, with a range that extends from 400Hz, all the way up past 12kHz, meaning that there is quite a bit of driver overlap. I needed a better, yet cost effective solution. The problem is that there aren't too many compression drivers that fit the rubric for use in Klipsch Heritage style speakers. the venerable K-55 is still in production from Atlas Sound under the PD-5VH, but at $190 a piece, it's still more than I wanted to spend. John Allen's A-55-G is very highly regarded, but more expensive yet. the JBL Selenium D 250-X, might have worked, but requires a crossover that's about 2000Hz lower, which I wasn't interested in fiddling with. I was considering just using the K-53 drivers that I had with a screw on adapter, when I found PRV Audio's D270PH-S drivers. Their T/S parameters were roughly comparable to the K55 and were only $35 a piece. Bingo!
Still, this driver had 8 ohms of impedance, while the crossover network was designed for a 16Ω driver, which combined with a 2dB of gain from the horn, meant it was still a bit more forward. So, I used a variable L-Pad to better dial it in.
I also changed the capacitor value to allow the horn to pass from 600Hz and had managed to pick up a 2nd horn, PRV Driver and L-pad. The sound was remarkably better! Still, I kept hearing that to completely tame driver overlap and unleash the true potential of the speaker, I really needed to use a universal crossover network. Frankly, I found it hard to believe that the speakers could sound any better than they already did, but curiosity got the better of me, as it usually does. So, I found a schematic that was optimized for Super Heresy speakers, made an adjustment to drop the mid values and put together an order from Parts Express.
I also picked up another set of networks to build from, rather than cannibalize the ones I had, in case I didn't like it. I found these Klipsch AA networks for $55, but they needed a little work:
after a little cleaning, some sanding and paint, they'll do:
I also changed the capacitor value to allow the horn to pass from 600Hz and had managed to pick up a 2nd horn, PRV Driver and L-pad. The sound was remarkably better! Still, I kept hearing that to completely tame driver overlap and unleash the true potential of the speaker, I really needed to use a universal crossover network. Frankly, I found it hard to believe that the speakers could sound any better than they already did, but curiosity got the better of me, as it usually does. So, I found a schematic that was optimized for Super Heresy speakers, made an adjustment to drop the mid values and put together an order from Parts Express.
I also picked up another set of networks to build from, rather than cannibalize the ones I had, in case I didn't like it. I found these Klipsch AA networks for $55, but they needed a little work:
after a little cleaning, some sanding and paint, they'll do:
The universal network is an order of magnitude more complex than the modified Type E crossovers I've built previously. I used spade terminals and screws for most of the connections, in case I needed to make changes or inadvertently screwed something up.
First impressions: Amazingly, it works! The differences are pretty subtle, in the left channel, where the universal network is, there seems to be a little more clarity and definition between instruments and voices, whereas the E/B network on the right channel seems a little more blurred, something I hadn’t noticed previously. My partner says it sounds “richer.” With the universal installed in the 2nd speaker, the difference does from "subtle" to extremely obvious; it's a significant improvement. More clarity, separation and better staging; they’re simply incredible sounding!
First impressions: Amazingly, it works! The differences are pretty subtle, in the left channel, where the universal network is, there seems to be a little more clarity and definition between instruments and voices, whereas the E/B network on the right channel seems a little more blurred, something I hadn’t noticed previously. My partner says it sounds “richer.” With the universal installed in the 2nd speaker, the difference does from "subtle" to extremely obvious; it's a significant improvement. More clarity, separation and better staging; they’re simply incredible sounding!
one last thing t address: Appearance. The K604s in a separate enclosure is clunky, at best. It did have better WAF compared to the bare horn, but it's awkward and the K701 in the original enclosure is disconnected and redundant. To mount them in the cabinet, I'd have to lose the tweeter. My initial tests indicated that the K604 with pro drivers work ok in a two-way system, but anyone who's heard a MAHL will tell you, they're more than mere tweeters- Amazingly, they have incredible high end extension and will go all of the way up to 20kHz, beyond the limits of most human hearing. After a lifetime spent around loud things: growing up on a farm, serving in the US Army in an 8" Howitzer battalion, playing in bands through my 20's, racing motorcycles in my 30's and 40's and working as a carpenter for the better part of 30 years, my hearing is a little worse for the wear, topping out with a mass roll-off at 9750 Hz. Yet, the MAHL improves the sound, even though I can't hear the higher end of its range, highlighting transients all of the way down to the bass frequencies. Doing without is a non-starter.
so, the next step will be getting a pair of free-standing MAHLs from Dave Ault, similar to these, but in Maple:
These have the added benefit of improved time alignment, too. Then, i'll disassemble the cabinets and mount the K-604's in place of the existing tweeters and squawkers. I'll also reveneer the boxes, as they have some flaws that I'm less than happy with. I'm also considering a few more mods while I have them in the shop, but I'll save them for later.
Some are content to merely spend money in the quest for better sound. Others are motivated by a deeper curiosity, a need to understand the hows and whys and the thought that perhaps they can do it at least as good, if not better, perhaps for less. Is this not the forum for those people ?
sooo... since I last posted, there have been a few changes. In the quest for even better low end response, I had an idea: why not a bass extension cabinet with a passive radiator? I got out my tape measure and calculator and did some crunching: I found that a 15.5" x 15.5" x15.5" enclosure attached to the bottom of my heresy clone cabinet would give the same displacement as a Forte and moreover, a 15" radiator would just fit. better yet, I found a pair of Dayton Audio 15" radiators on open box closeout... Game on!
I got to work in my shop and made a pair of boxes- since this was purely an experiment, I used scrap 3/4 ply that I had in my studio and aesthetics were a secondary concern- first and foremost, I wanted to see whether it worked.
with the boxes thrown together, I brought them home to test how they'd match up- Here they are atop my Heresy clones, with the passive in front for emphasis:
next comes the scary part: cutting holes in the bottom of perfectly functioning speakers and putting them togethe; there's no turning back nowr:
next, I installed foam in the bass bins, aligned the boxes and screwed them together:
the last step was to vacuum the sawdust, connect the drivers and install a sealed back on the original cabinet. Since I wasn't sure if I was ready to truly commit to the mods (yes, the holes in the bottom of the box are drastic, but reversible) I used a bi-ampable terminal, removed the jumpers and connected the mid extension horns to the top pair of terminals:
Here we have the final result. Admittedly, it's a bit crude and clunky, but the sound was remarkably good right off the bat, even though the passive definitely needs to break-in:
I got to work in my shop and made a pair of boxes- since this was purely an experiment, I used scrap 3/4 ply that I had in my studio and aesthetics were a secondary concern- first and foremost, I wanted to see whether it worked.
next comes the scary part: cutting holes in the bottom of perfectly functioning speakers and putting them togethe; there's no turning back nowr:
next, I installed foam in the bass bins, aligned the boxes and screwed them together:
the last step was to vacuum the sawdust, connect the drivers and install a sealed back on the original cabinet. Since I wasn't sure if I was ready to truly commit to the mods (yes, the holes in the bottom of the box are drastic, but reversible) I used a bi-ampable terminal, removed the jumpers and connected the mid extension horns to the top pair of terminals:
Here we have the final result. Admittedly, it's a bit crude and clunky, but the sound was remarkably good right off the bat, even though the passive definitely needs to break-in:
I could type all day about the sound, but words are meaningless without measurement data to back it up. My first few passes with REW were promising, taken with the mic set .8 meters from the floor and a meter away from the speaker. however, with bass starting to roll off in the mid 40's and -3dB at approximately 42-43 Hz, I feel that the graphs don't entirely represent what my ears were telling me.
with that in mind, I gave the speakers another week of playing, about 20 hours, thirty total, to let the passive break-in a little better. I then took measurements of the individual drivers with the mic at 30 cm from the drivers. In the graph below, the sMAHL tweeter is in dark green, the mid horn is in red, the woofer is in purple, while the passive is in orange; the averaged curve of all of the drivers is in orange:
while still not anywhere near as accurate as measurements taken an anechoic chamber, accounting for room gain, this represents a much clearer picture of what my ears are telling me. Here is the averaged curve in isolation:
Ultimately, I've found this to be a very worthwhile experiment and it has exceeded my expectations for both SQ and low end response. My conclusion: If you have a pair of vintage Klipsch Heresies or a pair of clones and find the tone to be lacking, you should absolutely do Claude's Super Heresy mods; dollar for dollar, the Super Heresy is one of the best bangs for the buck in all of audio. You can take a pair of 45 year-old speakers that were until recently, selling for $500 a pair and add $700-$1200 worth of ports, woofers and tweeters, depending on your selection, and make a speaker that will easily go toe to toe with brand K's latest and greatest, $3200 Heresy IV. Really, doing this is a no brainer. If you want still more bass, adding bass extension cabinets, as I've done, will get you there and bigger squawkers with good drivers will easily get you into Forte II territory, if not better.
As to the elephant in the room, yes, they're hideous looking. If I were a 20 something bachelor, I could live with the lack of aesthetics and simply wallow and revel in the glorious sound. As a grown-*** man who also has to contend with a reasonable modicum of WAF, the glorious sound deserves a better enclosure. With that in mind and goaded on by the enabling mentorship of @claudej12000 and Dave Ault, I'm not only not leave well enough alone, but take things a step or three further, because isn't that what we do? So, new cabinets are in order, with veneered baltic birch construction and at this point, I'm considering using 5/4" thick, solid wood motor boards, in either walnut or mahogany. While I could do a straight replica of the Forte with better parts, that doesn't seem very sporting, so we'll make the boxes bigger, for even deeper bass response. we'll also add bigger horns, because more bigger is more better-er!
to start, I've picked up a pair of L-MAHLS from machinedaudiohornlens.com -the L-MAHLs take everything that's great about their sMAHL siblings and improve on it with a larger machined alloy horn lens, driven by a pair of B&C DE-10s that are said to measure and sound even better than the sMAHL's neodymium, mylar diaphragm-ed B&C DE120 drivers.
we'll also go even bigger on the mid horns, with a pair of K-510 clones from ZXPC. They measure 15" wide and 10" tall, with a 2" throat that will be mated to a PRV Audio D2200PH driver, with the crossover tuned to 450Hz:
I'll detail that all in a new thread when I begin construction. Thanks for reading!
with that in mind, I gave the speakers another week of playing, about 20 hours, thirty total, to let the passive break-in a little better. I then took measurements of the individual drivers with the mic at 30 cm from the drivers. In the graph below, the sMAHL tweeter is in dark green, the mid horn is in red, the woofer is in purple, while the passive is in orange; the averaged curve of all of the drivers is in orange:
while still not anywhere near as accurate as measurements taken an anechoic chamber, accounting for room gain, this represents a much clearer picture of what my ears are telling me. Here is the averaged curve in isolation:
Ultimately, I've found this to be a very worthwhile experiment and it has exceeded my expectations for both SQ and low end response. My conclusion: If you have a pair of vintage Klipsch Heresies or a pair of clones and find the tone to be lacking, you should absolutely do Claude's Super Heresy mods; dollar for dollar, the Super Heresy is one of the best bangs for the buck in all of audio. You can take a pair of 45 year-old speakers that were until recently, selling for $500 a pair and add $700-$1200 worth of ports, woofers and tweeters, depending on your selection, and make a speaker that will easily go toe to toe with brand K's latest and greatest, $3200 Heresy IV. Really, doing this is a no brainer. If you want still more bass, adding bass extension cabinets, as I've done, will get you there and bigger squawkers with good drivers will easily get you into Forte II territory, if not better.
As to the elephant in the room, yes, they're hideous looking. If I were a 20 something bachelor, I could live with the lack of aesthetics and simply wallow and revel in the glorious sound. As a grown-*** man who also has to contend with a reasonable modicum of WAF, the glorious sound deserves a better enclosure. With that in mind and goaded on by the enabling mentorship of @claudej12000 and Dave Ault, I'm not only not leave well enough alone, but take things a step or three further, because isn't that what we do? So, new cabinets are in order, with veneered baltic birch construction and at this point, I'm considering using 5/4" thick, solid wood motor boards, in either walnut or mahogany. While I could do a straight replica of the Forte with better parts, that doesn't seem very sporting, so we'll make the boxes bigger, for even deeper bass response. we'll also add bigger horns, because more bigger is more better-er!
to start, I've picked up a pair of L-MAHLS from machinedaudiohornlens.com -the L-MAHLs take everything that's great about their sMAHL siblings and improve on it with a larger machined alloy horn lens, driven by a pair of B&C DE-10s that are said to measure and sound even better than the sMAHL's neodymium, mylar diaphragm-ed B&C DE120 drivers.
we'll also go even bigger on the mid horns, with a pair of K-510 clones from ZXPC. They measure 15" wide and 10" tall, with a 2" throat that will be mated to a PRV Audio D2200PH driver, with the crossover tuned to 450Hz:
I'll detail that all in a new thread when I begin construction. Thanks for reading!
@gigantic, this is really something. So last year I followed @claudej12000 's recipe for Super Heresy 2.0 and was more than happy with the results and have been listening to them every day ever since. Lately, however, I have been feeling that the sound is still not quite what I would like and I wanted to explore other options. Today I went to a High End store here in Sacramento, and I listened to the Forte iv. They are bigger sounding and might even work in my listening area, as they are basically just a bigger cabinet than the Heresy 1 that I have. The problem is that they are $5k and that's a lot of dough. $5k is about 8 months worth of groceries and if this world keeps heading to full Mad Max, maybe I need to keep as much of that as I can. So I jumped on the DIY board and searched for a way to make my own Forte boxes since the drivers are pretty much the same. I couldn't find anything in my initial search that was specifically Forte related, but I ran across your posts and started reading about your experience with the SH victimization. I read all the way through and as I was reaching the end, there was this story about a hybrid type of Forte. Big Smiles!! You have inspired me to find a way to make my own.
Thanks to You and ClaudeJ, I am encouraged.
Thanks to You and ClaudeJ, I am encouraged.
Nah, Just add a cheap sub from parts express with a 12" and plate amp under each one crossed at 50 Hz. and call it a day. and for the Good hand for the money.
ttps://www.parts-express.com/Dayton-Audio-SUB-1200-12-120-Watt-Powered-Subwoofer-300-629?quantity=1&srsltid=AfmBOooOl1Df3O7gp7A-6YJSisq8XyZwXlu-hVmNGbkEAjG9PQ6UvVZYt7g
ttps://www.parts-express.com/Dayton-Audio-SUB-1200-12-120-Watt-Powered-Subwoofer-300-629?quantity=1&srsltid=AfmBOooOl1Df3O7gp7A-6YJSisq8XyZwXlu-hVmNGbkEAjG9PQ6UvVZYt7g
Thanks for the post, ClaudeJ. My feelings of discontent are only felt when listening to 2ch music at high volumes. Movies and general listening are a real pleasure and I already have an spl-120 next to each SH. Just wondering what a larger cabinet would sound like.
Great to hear from the Godfather himself. Thank you
Great to hear from the Godfather himself. Thank you
I originally started with the subs that @claudej12000 listed above and they're a great value. my experiment was pretty effective, although the results were decidedly not particularly attractive. I stopped updating here, but the full build is over at AudioKarma. I ultimately used a K510 horn with plasticine mumps and a PRV Audio D2200PH driver. the overall sound was pretty fantastic, but they still needed subwoofers, as like the Forte, the bass started to really roll off around 38Hz. I'd intended to take what I'd learned from this experiment and build a pair of Chorus inspired speakers, using the Dayton passives, L-MAHL, PRV WG-4550 horn and PRV D2200PH driver and JBL2225H 15" woofers. I'd wanted to build them with a solid mahogany or walnut baffle and a more modern appearing face, however, the cost of the wood gave me pause. At the same time, I heard a pair of LaScala at a Jazz Kissa bar in my neighborhood and realized that was what I needed instead. After a bit of modeling and simulations, I came up with a design and the end result is a pair of rear passive-radiating LaScala clones that are +/- 3db flat from 25Hz to 20kHz and need no subwoofers. the thread for that is also on AK, with a considerable amount of deliberation and side chatter, and also here with a bit less noise
I love this! I’ve been scouring the web look for a nice 3 way to build, I’m a furniture maker by trade that now restores furniture and in love with mid century modernism as well as great sound. I built a large horn loaded PA system when in my early 20s dr 300 and tuba 30s by bill Fitz Maurice.
I want something that will fit in with my decor, I was looking at a la Scala or Klipschorn and as much as I would love them and showed my wife and she did to and agreed they’d fit well. She has no idea how big they are and I’m sure would want to kill me before I was halfway through the build, something like that will have to wait until hopefully one day I can build myself a properly designed dedicated listening room.
I have read through both your threads here and audio karma and decided this is it, I’m in Australia and we can get Klipsch here but no point waiting to find one second hand doubt I would definitely not a vintage cabinet, so I will be building from scratch.
I love how customisable this build is and appeals to me even more than building a clone. Would be so cool to have a speaker that visually stuns and packs a sizeable audio punch.
I’m planning on building it with the rear mounted radiators to make it a Frankenstein super heresy/forte, with SMAHL with a timber lense and like you said bigger is better 😬 and as long as I can keep the cabinets relatively small and unassuming my wife will be happy haha so also thinking about the k510 clones and D2200PH drivers.
I have a few questions if you can reply here or shoot me a message. Like you said in another comment some people are willing to spend more for better sound, but I want to learn more and understand why my speaker sounds good and build on a proven design and have something audibly and visually stunning.
Looking forward to hearing from you.