I have a cousin who is into clay trap shooting, it can run more than $200 per practice session in ammunition alone, the clay 'birds' are also expensive.
It can be really expensive, the guns are exotic in price as well, he is a national level shooter.
Even his air rifle, when he started competitive shooting, looked more like a sniper rifle than a CO2 powered air rifle, which it really was.
@NanoFarad has the advantage of seeing and buying at a shop at least some of the time, unlike those in the West, where physical shops are mostly gone.
I also have the advantage that I still have shops in my city, barely 4 km away from my house, who will actually sell me the parts from stock on their shelves, and are honest enough to tell me it is a good quality fake / substitute, a reality to accept when the original parts are not available, or are exotic in price.
Their prices are more realistic than RS and Mouser, sometimes one-third the on-line price.
They also are able to find parts not in stock from their suppliers in larger cities...my city has about 4 million people, about the same as Chicago, but is a Tier-II or smaller city in comparison to our larger cities.
And I am a firm believer in replacing with a higher rated currently available part if it is easily available, less trouble as the part runs much within its capacity, so the repaired article is more reliable, of course other parts may fail!
It can be really expensive, the guns are exotic in price as well, he is a national level shooter.
Even his air rifle, when he started competitive shooting, looked more like a sniper rifle than a CO2 powered air rifle, which it really was.
@NanoFarad has the advantage of seeing and buying at a shop at least some of the time, unlike those in the West, where physical shops are mostly gone.
I also have the advantage that I still have shops in my city, barely 4 km away from my house, who will actually sell me the parts from stock on their shelves, and are honest enough to tell me it is a good quality fake / substitute, a reality to accept when the original parts are not available, or are exotic in price.
Their prices are more realistic than RS and Mouser, sometimes one-third the on-line price.
They also are able to find parts not in stock from their suppliers in larger cities...my city has about 4 million people, about the same as Chicago, but is a Tier-II or smaller city in comparison to our larger cities.
And I am a firm believer in replacing with a higher rated currently available part if it is easily available, less trouble as the part runs much within its capacity, so the repaired article is more reliable, of course other parts may fail!
In your country you seem to have (or at least until recently have had) shops selling electronics parts on darn near every street corner. That isn’t how it works over here. Yeah, there are a handful of brick and mortars where you can just walk in and buy stuff over the counter, but if you thought Mouser’s prices are high you’d hit the ceiling on what these places charge. Guess what they sell too. That’s right, NTE. Want an original type - yeah, they’ll special order it. From Mouser or Digikey and then proceed to charge 3X for it. At one time every TV repair shop in America worked the same way. It WAS convenient in a small town, but for any major projects you simply had to find some other way of obtaining parts or a $100 project would end up costing five. At least now all the major distributors are on board with the internet sales model that developed during the 90’s and you and I have access to the same pricing structure as industry. Small lots of course still cost more, but it’s not just stupidly out of reach - for most. For many, prices are still too high. When you have to choose between rent, food, and your next project. Those are the ones who end up getting duped by fakes - those who can least afford it.
If this was said elsewhere in an earlier post or even a different thread, my apologies.
Unless you're a repair tech requiring a specific part, I don't understand all the discussion around fake semis / parts. There seems to be this mystique around "older is better", whether it be tubes or even semis now.
If you can't find the part you seek from a reliable supplier, move on to a different design. I think a lot of the market for fakes is based on FOMO. Some nitwit in a thread mentions that the "best" 6SN7 tube EVER is XXXX, and less than 2 months later, suddenly NOS Russian tubes are mysteriously "found" and marketed at $125 a unit. Funny how they don't even look like the originals from over 50 years ago. Funny how the person making the claim that that particular tube is the best now has a for sale page for fake tubes or "knows a guy". It makes me laugh / and cry. Scarcity makes (some) audiophiles go mad.
(Some) people will go to the ends of the earth to find an old part, which is still a fake, and they have no capability to check to see if a critical part of the circuit is even performing to original expectations. If a particular semi is THAT important to have b/c THAT particular circuit is THAT magical... wouldn't it be worth checking to be sure the circuit performs as intended?
BTW - I'm a terrible hypocrite with a stash of 'old' parts. I wish I had learned from myself a few years ago.
Unless you're a repair tech requiring a specific part, I don't understand all the discussion around fake semis / parts. There seems to be this mystique around "older is better", whether it be tubes or even semis now.
If you can't find the part you seek from a reliable supplier, move on to a different design. I think a lot of the market for fakes is based on FOMO. Some nitwit in a thread mentions that the "best" 6SN7 tube EVER is XXXX, and less than 2 months later, suddenly NOS Russian tubes are mysteriously "found" and marketed at $125 a unit. Funny how they don't even look like the originals from over 50 years ago. Funny how the person making the claim that that particular tube is the best now has a for sale page for fake tubes or "knows a guy". It makes me laugh / and cry. Scarcity makes (some) audiophiles go mad.
(Some) people will go to the ends of the earth to find an old part, which is still a fake, and they have no capability to check to see if a critical part of the circuit is even performing to original expectations. If a particular semi is THAT important to have b/c THAT particular circuit is THAT magical... wouldn't it be worth checking to be sure the circuit performs as intended?
BTW - I'm a terrible hypocrite with a stash of 'old' parts. I wish I had learned from myself a few years ago.
Hi ItsAllInMyHead,
The reason and people fixing something does not change reality or physics one iota. You need the real deal, otherwise you may be damaging a piece of equipment and possibly other things connected to it. So being a repair tech, design engineer or grinning hobbyist - it's all the same. The circuit has no idea who you are or what your concerns are, all it can do is function as designed if you replace the right parts and adjust it properly.
Tubes. Man, I was apprenticed on those things. They are a commodity part, most folks don't get it. As for new parts, New Sensor reverse engineered some well regarded tubes. Mike had the Reflector factory in Russia produce them. They are still in practice and are skilled at tube manufacture and make better tubes than the NOS stuff was at its best. Fewer failures (we had high failures by comparison with the originals). They are more consistent tube to tube, section to section. Signal tubes are less noisy. Why? Manufacturing processes and chemical technology has progressed. Those are the best tubes these days.
All parts are better. Transistors, new manufacture (OnSemi or similar) are better than the same number made years ago by Motorola and others. Manufacturing again, processes are better, process control has improved greatly so parts have less variation and signal transistors are less noisy. Old parts? We need carbon composition in certain places, but not in the input stages of high gain equipment. We use the appropriate part for the job and have more selection these days.
You are further ahead with a modern equivalent than the original part most often. That, and you know where it came from.
The reason and people fixing something does not change reality or physics one iota. You need the real deal, otherwise you may be damaging a piece of equipment and possibly other things connected to it. So being a repair tech, design engineer or grinning hobbyist - it's all the same. The circuit has no idea who you are or what your concerns are, all it can do is function as designed if you replace the right parts and adjust it properly.
Tubes. Man, I was apprenticed on those things. They are a commodity part, most folks don't get it. As for new parts, New Sensor reverse engineered some well regarded tubes. Mike had the Reflector factory in Russia produce them. They are still in practice and are skilled at tube manufacture and make better tubes than the NOS stuff was at its best. Fewer failures (we had high failures by comparison with the originals). They are more consistent tube to tube, section to section. Signal tubes are less noisy. Why? Manufacturing processes and chemical technology has progressed. Those are the best tubes these days.
All parts are better. Transistors, new manufacture (OnSemi or similar) are better than the same number made years ago by Motorola and others. Manufacturing again, processes are better, process control has improved greatly so parts have less variation and signal transistors are less noisy. Old parts? We need carbon composition in certain places, but not in the input stages of high gain equipment. We use the appropriate part for the job and have more selection these days.
You are further ahead with a modern equivalent than the original part most often. That, and you know where it came from.
I hope it didn't seem as if I was doing anything but supporting this point.
Agreed. I suppose it may have seemed as if I was separating professional repair techs from hobbyists et. al. That wasn't my intention. Great call out.
I could have worded it better to convey my actual intent which was/is - to separate the thoughts of repairing vs. building something new regardless of motivation/profession.
Perhaps better worded... if you can't find a known and trusted source for a part for a 'new to you' circuit, perhaps consider building a different circuit.
I used the term 'general purpose components' & oldy transistors like Tip3055 & tip35 are easily available here because of huge demand from various industries (from automobiles to consumer appliances). & as NareshBrd said we have the advantage of seeing & buying from the local retailers at a very good price. I never said that the price is stupid at online supplier, very often i purchase semiconductor from RS components as per my requirements.
Hello good mornig for everyone! Hello wg_ski, the hFE of these dubious components is 25, things seem to be fine, but the strange thing is that ST did not publish anywhere, (or I did not find it) this encapsulation model, Regards
That's why I purchased those from RS not alixpress & these(originals) wasn't available at our local retailers.
https://in.rsdelivers.com/product/toshiba/ttc5200q/toshiba-ttc5200q-npn-transistor-15-a-230-v-3-pin-2/8962656?query=ttc 5200
https://in.rsdelivers.com/product/toshiba/ttc5200q/toshiba-ttc5200q-npn-transistor-15-a-230-v-3-pin-2/8962656?query=ttc 5200
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Maybe it was some limited run. The die size is right, and it doesn’t have white goop. The package LOOKS like OnSemi. So does the laser marking font. Somebody’s playing a shell game somewhere - the $64k question is are you the loser? The only way to know is to test one to spec.
Hi ItsAllInMyHead,
No problem. I'm just trying to keep things clear for all.
Hi wg_ski,
Yes, both ECG and NTE (copied ECG) were/are terribly overpriced, and the quality for transistors is awful. The first of the remark pros, you never knew what the actual part was. You could guess sometimes. I feel buying those parts amounts to playing the lottery when you know the lottery is fixed.
No problem. I'm just trying to keep things clear for all.
Hi wg_ski,
Yes, both ECG and NTE (copied ECG) were/are terribly overpriced, and the quality for transistors is awful. The first of the remark pros, you never knew what the actual part was. You could guess sometimes. I feel buying those parts amounts to playing the lottery when you know the lottery is fixed.
lol!
I completely agree on all counts. Highway robbery.
The environment that made that possible was overpriced parts from equipment manufacturers and the lack of training for TV and industrial techs. Audio techs too, but it's more important in audio and test and measurement fields to know what you are doing. I'm sure medical matters too. Part quality matters, as does the concept of matching some of them.
What really bugged me was the highest prices known to the world, and the absolute worst quality parts. Plus the replacement manual (I call it the book of lies).
I completely agree on all counts. Highway robbery.
The environment that made that possible was overpriced parts from equipment manufacturers and the lack of training for TV and industrial techs. Audio techs too, but it's more important in audio and test and measurement fields to know what you are doing. I'm sure medical matters too. Part quality matters, as does the concept of matching some of them.
What really bugged me was the highest prices known to the world, and the absolute worst quality parts. Plus the replacement manual (I call it the book of lies).
wg_ski, the market here is about ten shops selling components mostly to repair technicians at retail, and about ten more who will sell large quantities (100x transistors / capacitors in packet of 100-1000).
Mumbai and Ahmedabad are close by, and the stocks / variety sold there is larger than those in my city. Delhi, the hub for this in India, is also overnight by fast train.
And the whole area is about 1 km by 1 km, walking distance, not many sellers in the rest of the city except for cell phone techs, who stock some basic parts.
As for prices, RS and their ilk have very high overheads, and they operate mostly in the high end corporate segment, where the prices are affordable, and they cut deals for those customers, even special orders...which does not come to me as a benefit.
Shipping costs, particularly for small orders are difficult to justify, but I have a friend with a rare KBA Rapida 105 offset machine, he needed a few relays, tiny Omron units only about 24 x 14 mm, so I told him to pick up some extra, luckily I found them for him at RS India, they were not in stock even in the USA at the time. For him, machine downtime was more important than $15 to ship a $30 order (IIRC).
I am mostly doing repairs, at a fairly basic level, and I can find what I need here.
But for your country, where tech time is expensive, older units do get trashed for fairly simple faults, so the market for parts is less, and a shop needs to pay rent and salaries...with little sales, it may not be viable.
Here also, some parts shops have been sold to shops doing work on cell phones, the owners retiring.
And the customers are mostly repair techs, LED backlights, smart TV motherboards, and related stuff are big sellers here. As are plate amps with Class AB circuits, and power supply stuff, meters, tools for electronic work like SMD stations, soldering irons and so on.
And the youngest seem to be above 40, so I feel this trade will be gone in ten years or so.
Mumbai and Ahmedabad are close by, and the stocks / variety sold there is larger than those in my city. Delhi, the hub for this in India, is also overnight by fast train.
And the whole area is about 1 km by 1 km, walking distance, not many sellers in the rest of the city except for cell phone techs, who stock some basic parts.
As for prices, RS and their ilk have very high overheads, and they operate mostly in the high end corporate segment, where the prices are affordable, and they cut deals for those customers, even special orders...which does not come to me as a benefit.
Shipping costs, particularly for small orders are difficult to justify, but I have a friend with a rare KBA Rapida 105 offset machine, he needed a few relays, tiny Omron units only about 24 x 14 mm, so I told him to pick up some extra, luckily I found them for him at RS India, they were not in stock even in the USA at the time. For him, machine downtime was more important than $15 to ship a $30 order (IIRC).
I am mostly doing repairs, at a fairly basic level, and I can find what I need here.
But for your country, where tech time is expensive, older units do get trashed for fairly simple faults, so the market for parts is less, and a shop needs to pay rent and salaries...with little sales, it may not be viable.
Here also, some parts shops have been sold to shops doing work on cell phones, the owners retiring.
And the customers are mostly repair techs, LED backlights, smart TV motherboards, and related stuff are big sellers here. As are plate amps with Class AB circuits, and power supply stuff, meters, tools for electronic work like SMD stations, soldering irons and so on.
And the youngest seem to be above 40, so I feel this trade will be gone in ten years or so.
Not everyone has a narrow view!
I can share several thread links where people purchased & using exotic components from aliexpress despite having "hi-end" (or at least semi high end) test equipments. They can't resist the price although they can afford buying from mouser or such authorised vendors. Oh, you may now say, they has the experience & tools but still why take risk? Or why promote buying from such unreliable source?
Anyway, can you tell me which one is fake? I purchased these from different source with very different pricing range & both source is reliable, at least for me.
I can share several thread links where people purchased & using exotic components from aliexpress despite having "hi-end" (or at least semi high end) test equipments. They can't resist the price although they can afford buying from mouser or such authorised vendors. Oh, you may now say, they has the experience & tools but still why take risk? Or why promote buying from such unreliable source?
Anyway, can you tell me which one is fake? I purchased these from different source with very different pricing range & both source is reliable, at least for me.
^ Agreed. It's a hobby (for many of us) after all. Not everything even needs to be based on solid logic. Have fun and buy what you want at a price that seems reasonable. However, purchasing counterfeit merchandise may have far-reaching consequences that may not be readily apparent to some people. So, even separate from attempting to warn unwary buyers of potential performance consequences, it feels at least a little bit proper to mention that supporting criminal enterprises through the purchase of counterfeit merchandise is ... maybe ... not the best idea.
I still stand by my recommendation for anyone building something 'new to them', which is:
I think it's fantastic that there are still places in this world that have a (somewhat) ready supply of surplus parts at brick and mortar shops. For those purchasing on-line and only using a picture as their source of truth for making a purchase decision, that's a challenge. For those purchasing through a website known to allow the sales of openly counterfeit merchandise, it's even more of a challenge.
If it's worth someone's time to test various sources, to try and "pan for gold", I say go for it.
However, all situations have variations. There's a fairly recent situation where one person purchased and tested a reasonable quantity (100s or more) obsolete parts from a known and documented supplier of counterfeit parts. They protected their purchase accordingly, and they received authentic parts. That triggered others to purchase from that same supplier perhaps thinking they had changed. Guess what? Some purchasers received counterfeit parts.
I recently purchased some obsolete Toshiba MOSFETs from a supplier that (I believe) truly thought they were supplying authentic parts. Did they return my money to avoid negative feedback on an auction site, perhaps? Were they honest? I don't know. Did they still have the parts for sale after I told them they were not authentic parts, yes. Does Octopart list suppliers of fakes too, yes.
Anyway... I think we're all just trying to help our fellow DIYers avoid potential problems. Fakes are everywhere, and they're not always easy to visually verify.
I still stand by my recommendation for anyone building something 'new to them', which is:
Buy only from known and trusted sources or caveat emptor.
I think it's fantastic that there are still places in this world that have a (somewhat) ready supply of surplus parts at brick and mortar shops. For those purchasing on-line and only using a picture as their source of truth for making a purchase decision, that's a challenge. For those purchasing through a website known to allow the sales of openly counterfeit merchandise, it's even more of a challenge.
If it's worth someone's time to test various sources, to try and "pan for gold", I say go for it.
However, all situations have variations. There's a fairly recent situation where one person purchased and tested a reasonable quantity (100s or more) obsolete parts from a known and documented supplier of counterfeit parts. They protected their purchase accordingly, and they received authentic parts. That triggered others to purchase from that same supplier perhaps thinking they had changed. Guess what? Some purchasers received counterfeit parts.
I recently purchased some obsolete Toshiba MOSFETs from a supplier that (I believe) truly thought they were supplying authentic parts. Did they return my money to avoid negative feedback on an auction site, perhaps? Were they honest? I don't know. Did they still have the parts for sale after I told them they were not authentic parts, yes. Does Octopart list suppliers of fakes too, yes.
Anyway... I think we're all just trying to help our fellow DIYers avoid potential problems. Fakes are everywhere, and they're not always easy to visually verify.