Thanks for the suggestion Jac, I will do in future but for this run I've spent enough money...
KZ continues to amaze me for his chamaleontic character...
In this moment I'm listening to the plain Mouser BOM and LME49710HA as LPF opamp in my new DAC... what a match!
Gorgeous clean tube-like sound, replacing the KZ with Cerafine sound seems dry in comparison... but it's only an illusion!
With the plain wire in C9 it sound much more like the Cerafine
So, beware, if comparing KZ and Cerafine, the KZ may seem to sound better but the most faithful is the Cerafine
In this moment I'm listening to the plain Mouser BOM and LME49710HA as LPF opamp in my new DAC... what a match!
Gorgeous clean tube-like sound, replacing the KZ with Cerafine sound seems dry in comparison... but it's only an illusion!
With the plain wire in C9 it sound much more like the Cerafine
So, beware, if comparing KZ and Cerafine, the KZ may seem to sound better but the most faithful is the Cerafine
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Amtrans AMCH vs Wima FKP2 (Preliminary)
(PRELIMINARY) It seems confirmed that Amtrans AMCH are a worthwhile improvement over Wima FKP2.
What you can expect:
The higher harmonic content means less loss, NOT added distortion!
Remember that I compare them to an absolute reference, in this case an unpopulated C12 (only for test purposes, it MUST be populated).
Attention!
During revision I've determined that C32 orientation indicated on PCB seems not the optimal one, if confirmed C32 should be mounted reversed.
The upcoming updated build tutorial will highlight this problem after final revision.
(PRELIMINARY) It seems confirmed that Amtrans AMCH are a worthwhile improvement over Wima FKP2.
What you can expect:
- A more life-like timbre
- An higher harmonic content
- Cleaner sound
The higher harmonic content means less loss, NOT added distortion!
Remember that I compare them to an absolute reference, in this case an unpopulated C12 (only for test purposes, it MUST be populated).
Attention! During revision I've determined that C32 orientation indicated on PCB seems not the optimal one, if confirmed C32 should be mounted reversed.
The upcoming updated build tutorial will highlight this problem after final revision.
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...in tested phase, cabling and case not perfect
... KZ/C9 and plays wonderfully already!
Thanks Dario
Bom Mouser except:
C12, C30, C32 AMCH
R12 Charcroft Z-foil
C101, C201 Mundorf MLytic AG
C13 Mundorf Supreme
pending Cerafine and the Black Gate
Thanks Dario
Bom Mouser except:
C12, C30, C32 AMCH
R12 Charcroft Z-foil
C101, C201 Mundorf MLytic AG
C13 Mundorf Supreme
pending Cerafine and the Black Gate
LT1355
Which opamp use your dac
Attachments
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Hi Dario, are you using any kind of pre-amp (DCB1?) I degraded my DCB1 a while ago by fitting a poor quality source selector switch and have been using a pot in a box since and it sounds much more transparent Just wondering if you have an opinion? I'm going to fit a decent selector switch to my DCB1 so i can get a better impression . I could do with two inputs 
Think i'll get two of these so i can fit one in my pot in a box. It'll make a fairer test.
5649ADBGK | Toggle Switch DPDT On-Off-On, 4 A@ 30 V dc, 6 A@ 125 V ac, Panel Mount | Apem
5649ADBGK | Toggle Switch DPDT On-Off-On, 4 A@ 30 V dc, 6 A@ 125 V ac, Panel Mount | Apem
LOL, quoting your image gets a killing sequence of characters...!
I was wondering about Mundorfs, both MLytic and Supreme, since could get them from an Estonian vendor on eBay at an honest price (...hope they'r genuine!) .
I'll put Amtrans in the HFC wishlist - Cerafines are on the way, but it could take more than a month, so I'll keep the KZs in cart.
But... hey, R12 ? I was prepared to upgrade that too! Any thought about that resistor position, Dario?
I use both source direct connection to the My_Ref and DCB1.
DCB1 is a great sounding preamp/buffer but not so neutral, maybe I've finally found a good BOM but it's still under evaluation, let's say I've been inspired by last FE one
In practice all resistors are RN60/CMF60 apart the four directly on signal path that are Z-Foils and current setting resistors (Vishay NS), electrolythics are BlackGates STD (I'm thinking to replace at least two of them with Cerafines) and smoothing caps are Nichicon PW (under scrutiny they seem a bit heavy and lacks a tiny bit of hifrq extension)
It's one of the resistors I will test in the next weeks, the only alternate considered is a Z-Foil.
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DCB1 is a great sounding preamp/buffer but not so neutral, maybe I've finally found a good BOM but it's still under evaluation, let's say I've been inspired by last FE one
In practice all resistors are RN60/CMF60 apart the four directly on signal path that are Z-Foils and current setting resistors (Vishay NS), electrolythics are BlackGates STD (I'm thinking to replace at least two of them with Cerafines) and smoothing caps are Nichicon PW (under scrutiny they seem a bit heavy and lacks a tiny bit of hifrq extension)
[/QUOTE]
I have a HotRodded DCB1 too, built a TeaBag's standard kit, bought as NOS
from a friend, with a standard 20K ALPS. Sounds good! Hope to use it with FE, but @sontero on ApA tickled my couriosity with LDRs... Anyway, I have a spare DCB1 board... so...
Uhm... Well, I admit, I don't know if I can appreciate differences between so much high end resistors, but I'll track your experiments, as usual.
While I wait for Cerafines, I'll put a socket as @lehmanhill said: way easier to desolder it and put the final part in place.
Thanks for that Dario. My DCB1 is also hot rodded and built with Teabags component kit. I used a 10K Tocos pot, i prefer them to any of the others i have tried (warm sounding but masses of detail) I have a mind to fit naked foils in the sound path and upgrade some of the caps but that's for the future. I'll fit a better source switch first.
I thought R12 on the FE was surface mount so i ruled out any upgrade there, i'll watch this space
I thought R12 on the FE was surface mount so i ruled out any upgrade there, i'll watch this space
You're welcome
I thought R12 on the FE was surface mount so i ruled out any upgrade there, i'll watch this space
R12 is SMD only for most versions of the FE, only v1.5 and up have hybrid pads for 5mm LS resistors and 1206 ones.
During beta phase I did try Z-Foils for R12 and preferred Susumus, since I'm re-evaluating all previous choices and some reported imprvements (Madisonears, Joseph K) soldering a Z-foil to smd pads I will try again.
Yes, i would like to confirm / underline the importance of the resistor quality, especially in the feedback positions. That is, R7 and R10.
My principal test bed for experimentation are the Evo versions, which are all smd devices in all these positions. I could not care less, and changed for through hole substitutes since a long time ago. I used a takman .5W metal film for R7 for a long time, and a Z-foil for R10, for most of the time. Recently I had tried (money money) a Z-foil also for R7, that is a full z-foil feedback chain -- and there is no return, at least for me..
Would like to point out that I have the luxury of trying this parallel, with two units equipped similarly, and doing a-b testing.
Would like to disperse also any possible worries about signal integrity, when sticking a big bulky resistor in place of zhe smd pads. I have done all my testing this way, and no changes releived in distortion figures (if not for the better).
Would like to add that I don't see (hear) any drawback with the z-foils. On the contrary, I get a more full bodied, more natural, that is, more neutral beautifully balanced sound, with a lot fine structure to the sound. And the bass dries up, gains a natural tunefulness, and goes deeper..
So my conclusion would be: the holes for a z-foil are even foreseen for R10, in the recent versions of FE. For R7 they are not there, but try to stick a Z-foil also there, none the less..
Ciao, George
My principal test bed for experimentation are the Evo versions, which are all smd devices in all these positions. I could not care less, and changed for through hole substitutes since a long time ago. I used a takman .5W metal film for R7 for a long time, and a Z-foil for R10, for most of the time. Recently I had tried (money money) a Z-foil also for R7, that is a full z-foil feedback chain -- and there is no return, at least for me..
Would like to point out that I have the luxury of trying this parallel, with two units equipped similarly, and doing a-b testing.
Would like to disperse also any possible worries about signal integrity, when sticking a big bulky resistor in place of zhe smd pads. I have done all my testing this way, and no changes releived in distortion figures (if not for the better).
Would like to add that I don't see (hear) any drawback with the z-foils. On the contrary, I get a more full bodied, more natural, that is, more neutral beautifully balanced sound, with a lot fine structure to the sound. And the bass dries up, gains a natural tunefulness, and goes deeper..
So my conclusion would be: the holes for a z-foil are even foreseen for R10, in the recent versions of FE. For R7 they are not there, but try to stick a Z-foil also there, none the less..
Ciao, George
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Obviously it should be read R7...
Absolutely but only after replacing R12 (the input resistor) with a Z-Foil.
R12 is much more important, it's critical to remove the slight coloration of RN55s and add further detail, soundstage and all good things described by JosephK.
If I have to buy only a single Z-Foil it would be R12.
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After many trials, I've been running Z-foil at R10 and R12 for more than a year now, and, yes, they are by far the best sounding parts at those positions. Never tried one at R7, and usually the feedback R's are the most important. The parallel C32 might make it less important at R7; not sure.
Even in the previous rev FE's with smd pads, the lightweight Z-foils can be easily soldered to the pads with a small 90 degree bend (done very carefully) on each leg and holding it in place while soldering. It is well worth the trouble.
Now using a Jupiter copper foil/wax paper cap at C13 and it is marvelously alive, musical and accurate. It is still the single most important component for determining the sound of this amp.
Peace,
Tom E
Even in the previous rev FE's with smd pads, the lightweight Z-foils can be easily soldered to the pads with a small 90 degree bend (done very carefully) on each leg and holding it in place while soldering. It is well worth the trouble.
Now using a Jupiter copper foil/wax paper cap at C13 and it is marvelously alive, musical and accurate. It is still the single most important component for determining the sound of this amp.
Peace,
Tom E
Hi Tom,
Absolutely, the most effective is R12 though, R10 somewhat complete the effect.
The RN55 anyway nicely blends with Z-Foil in R12 and is a good upgrade from previously suggested resistors, detail increase a lot.
I should be able to say something in the next days.
Yesterday I've mounted sockets everywhere in direct signal path of the 1.6 build.
I'm going to try again alternates in R10, R12 and in R7, R37.
Some pre-preliminary results from a brief listening session.
- Mundorf Supreme is a very significant upgrade over CDE940
- Z-Foil in R12, in addiction to be a significant upgrade, remove almost the tiny coloration from RN55
This is again a confirmation that KZs to shine needs a very neutral/balanced signal.
Those costs a little fortune... I don't know if I'm ready to spend so much on a cap and anyway not before upgrading all the rest.Dario, looking forward to your trials with R7.
Regarding C13, let me clarify my point for new builders. It's easy to get caught up in the allure of exotic parts and the incremental improvements they might provide. If all the other parts in this amp are the best available, the final sound will be determined by C13 more than any other single component. One can spend $50 on fancy resistors, but a mediocre C13 will still compromise the sound. Every part contributes, but some are crucially important. A KZ at C9 is very, very good but not quite the best. The next step up, a Blackgate, will cost a lot more money and yield minor but definite improvements. A bad cap at C13 will pretty much ruin the sound. Carefully selecting that one part will better allow every other improvement to be heard.
Does one need to spend fifty or more dollars on C13 to get good sound? Certainly not, but it will help there more than elsewhere. It makes little sense to splurge on other expensive parts and cut corners on C13. Perhaps the metalized plastic Mundorf Supreme sounds adequate to you, but if one wants to improve the sound, crazy money is best spent there. Resistors are flavoring, C13 the main ingredient.
Peace,
Tom E
Regarding C13, let me clarify my point for new builders. It's easy to get caught up in the allure of exotic parts and the incremental improvements they might provide. If all the other parts in this amp are the best available, the final sound will be determined by C13 more than any other single component. One can spend $50 on fancy resistors, but a mediocre C13 will still compromise the sound. Every part contributes, but some are crucially important. A KZ at C9 is very, very good but not quite the best. The next step up, a Blackgate, will cost a lot more money and yield minor but definite improvements. A bad cap at C13 will pretty much ruin the sound. Carefully selecting that one part will better allow every other improvement to be heard.
Does one need to spend fifty or more dollars on C13 to get good sound? Certainly not, but it will help there more than elsewhere. It makes little sense to splurge on other expensive parts and cut corners on C13. Perhaps the metalized plastic Mundorf Supreme sounds adequate to you, but if one wants to improve the sound, crazy money is best spent there. Resistors are flavoring, C13 the main ingredient.
Peace,
Tom E
It would be better not even have the C13 ....
and.....Duelund ? Better? Money money
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I'll report soon
Sorry Tom but I can't subscribe to your point of view, completely.
While it's true that a bad cap in C13 will ruin sound it's also true that a lot of caps are good enough to let pass very good sound.
Focus for a moment on what you wrote on the first quoted sentence:
You're too somewhat implying that other upgrades , starting from C9, are necessary and you already have Z-foils in the signal path.... There are lot of parts that will mask that final bit of good sound that an incredible C13 will let pass, it's pointless having the absolute best possible cap in C13 without first removing as much as possible of those 'obstructions'!
In a cost no object build you can spend outrageous amounts of money in the quest for an absolute.
But in real life people has limited amount of money so what I try to do, and I'm spending lots of money and time doing it, is to give partecipants the best possible Mouser BOM (which is to be considered a base BOM) and an upgrade path, prioritized according performance returns and costs, to the best sound achievable with reasonable cost.
After that no one stops to go further until cost no-object.
A Mundorf Supreme does not cuts any corner, it will not only barely sound 'good'.
This doesn't exclude that in the future I could find a better cap at a similar price but ,again, is pointless to spend here more without having first 'freed' the path with other upgrades.
I'm re-evaluating each upgrade to correctly rate and prioritize them so that everyone can stop to the price level he feels confortable with.
Throwing away more than 280€ in 2 caps that will be crippled by other components when with circa 240€ you upgrade the whole signal path to a level that sounds astounding is at least silly, IMHO.
An incredibly good level of performace can be achieved with much less money (126€) simply replacing C13, C9, R12, C12, C30 and C32 with suggested best parts.
And BTW are you sure that the fantastic sound you're hearing is not coloritura and/or added distortion? Did you compare those caps with a plain wire (not a wire bypass) in C13?
Plain wire.....Dario you explain what you mean?
I am content in C13 of the Mundorf Supreme