Zelgall, additional 15" drivers , B&C makes many with the "right stuff"
For Zelgall ,
The 15" drivers i mentioned to you previously are for bass range only, but if you are looking to cover a wider range there are a few affordable 15" drivers that have the right parameters to reach well into the midrange with abundant kick and snap (without sacrificing deep bass) and these would be drivers like the B&C 15CL76 , B&C 15PZB100, B&C 15TBX100 , or Freddi's 15TBX40 in a 120L Karlflex ...
All of these B&Cs listed look excellent for a wideband Karlflex and should be useful right up to 1000hz+ with the coherent phase response to deliver the dynamics, transients and details you seek
For Zelgall ,
The 15" drivers i mentioned to you previously are for bass range only, but if you are looking to cover a wider range there are a few affordable 15" drivers that have the right parameters to reach well into the midrange with abundant kick and snap (without sacrificing deep bass) and these would be drivers like the B&C 15CL76 , B&C 15PZB100, B&C 15TBX100 , or Freddi's 15TBX40 in a 120L Karlflex ...
All of these B&Cs listed look excellent for a wideband Karlflex and should be useful right up to 1000hz+ with the coherent phase response to deliver the dynamics, transients and details you seek
Freddi,
It might be possible, i have just been sticking with the 24" height lately to conserve ply..
At around 33" height the 60L Karlflex-12 cabinet would have a square footprint or close to it ..... Not sure if anything would fit properly, but i know that the interchamber duct would need to be extremely short to avoid tuning far too low .. The S1 section would also be best modeled as a waveguide with expansion in Akabak ... The S1 section would come to a point at the top and expand with a single taper until the S2 point at the bottom of the box ...
The longer somewhat horn shaped path with less CSA would likely result in an overdamped response and a higher F3 if the cab is loaded with drivers that do not have strong motors.
Oh my !
Oliver , that looks great!
I really like the stuffing explanation and the way it is depicted , very nice
There is one very minor change (don't hate me for this) needed, and it is super easy i promise
Could that tiny bit of lining placed between the interchamber duct panels be removed? ... A bare panel in that 2.5" vertical section would be best...
YOU ARE AWESOME!
Freddi,
In all versions (60L , 100L , and 123L) the driver needs to be mounted as low on the baffle as is possible ... This optimizes the driver-offset placement which was carefully tuned in Akabak for this driver location, and also allows the front panel (which forms the front chamber) to come down a little further ..
nice to have that clarified (-could be noted on the plans) - how does the on-sale ($69.90) PA380-8 15" speaker fare? Dayton Audio PA380-8 15" Pro Woofer
Sorry for not getting back sooner, I was at a conference.
Thanks for the info! I was initially thinking about augmenting the low end for my Altec 19s but it seems like a waste to use them as mid / highs with the Karlflex for bass. With one of the other drivers you posted that have a more extended range I could use the Karlflex 123L and a pair of extra altec 511's I have.
I had a K12 cabinet about 15 years ago but sold it after a couple of months. It was punchy but not well defined in the low end. Should have kept it and worked it out.
KARLFLEX Post #1611, etc...
Hi MMJ,
OK, here is a further update of the drawing; I removed the lining placed in the turn between the interchamber duct panels.
I also noticed your reply to freddi in Post #1727, and added it as a note to the drawing. I hope it will not be necessary to redraw the whole thing, as I'm still a little pressed for time. But, let's not stop before we get it correct.
Regards,
Hi MMJ,
OK, here is a further update of the drawing; I removed the lining placed in the turn between the interchamber duct panels.
I also noticed your reply to freddi in Post #1727, and added it as a note to the drawing. I hope it will not be necessary to redraw the whole thing, as I'm still a little pressed for time. But, let's not stop before we get it correct.
Regards,
Driver location note and that Dayton 15
Freddi ,
That is a good point ... I might be able to find some room to add that to the plans, or maybe the note could be added to Tb46's drawing?
It should be mentioned somewhere...
That driver seems like a good value but after trying to do some modeling with the PA380-8 i was never able to get the kind of performance i expected from a 15 in this type of 6th order cabinet, but i was always tuning low to match the FS of that driver .... With a cabinet FB of 40hz it may perform alright but a steep high pass filter in the range of 30hz to 33hz-ish would be necessary to keep the driver from self destructing on very deep subbass notes ...
I have never been terribly fond of drivers with such loose suspensions either ...
Freddi, your 15" B&C drivers are practically ideal for the Karlflex (in comparison to the Dayton) .... The low price on that Dayton is tempting though ..
Freddi ,
That is a good point ... I might be able to find some room to add that to the plans, or maybe the note could be added to Tb46's drawing?
It should be mentioned somewhere...
That driver seems like a good value but after trying to do some modeling with the PA380-8 i was never able to get the kind of performance i expected from a 15 in this type of 6th order cabinet, but i was always tuning low to match the FS of that driver .... With a cabinet FB of 40hz it may perform alright but a steep high pass filter in the range of 30hz to 33hz-ish would be necessary to keep the driver from self destructing on very deep subbass notes ...
I have never been terribly fond of drivers with such loose suspensions either ...
Freddi, your 15" B&C drivers are practically ideal for the Karlflex (in comparison to the Dayton) .... The low price on that Dayton is tempting though ..
FULLY OUTSTANDING!! ............ DRAWING FROM #1730
Oliver,
I LOVE IT !!! (The drawing from post #1730 )
I think that with the extra note at the bottom there is no need to redraw
SO THIS IS PERFECT!
Thank you so very much for doing this even when you didn't have a lot of time, your generosity and patience is greatly appreciated, you really came through on this and i owe you one! ...
Hi MMJ,
OK, here is a further update of the drawing; I removed the lining placed in the turn between the interchamber duct panels.
I also noticed your reply to freddi in Post #1727, and added it as a note to the drawing. I hope it will not be necessary to redraw the whole thing, as I'm still a little pressed for time. But, let's not stop before we get it correct.
Regards,
Oliver,
I LOVE IT !!!
(The drawing from post #1730 )I think that with the extra note at the bottom there is no need to redraw
SO THIS IS PERFECT!
Thank you so very much for doing this even when you didn't have a lot of time, your generosity and patience is greatly appreciated, you really came through on this and i owe you one! ...
Last edited:
Driver comparison and categorization
Freddi ,
This Rca-Fan FLH is sure to be a super punchy midbass monster
By the way Freddi,
I have something for you
Because the Dayton 15 is selling for such a low price right now i did some simulations (quick & dirty HR method) with the PA-380 in a Karlflex tuned to a fundamental of 40hz, and it is not entirely horrible i suppose, it's bottom end basically matches Schlager's 15LB100 driver in a 120L cabinet which is decent, and when compared to the Pioneer Pro12 in a 60L Karlflex i can see that the Pioneer has 2 decibels less output but that is in a cabinet that is half the size, which is no big surprise ....... So ok, not terrible really considering the price of the Dayton right now.
For perspective I also compared it to your 15TBX40 and your B&C has a FIVE decibel advantage in max output (largely due to the XMAX rating), but as you know the B&C would also cost five times as much
if that model was still sold ....
Here is a downside to the Dayton 15:
Unfortunately i do not think that the PA-380 is suitable for wideband operation due to the very high voicecoil inductance which prevents it from having solid output at the upper frequencies ... Looking at the published graphs for this driver reveals that the Impedance curve is creeping up towards a 20 ohm load at around 500hz and the SPL @1w dips below 90db between 500hz and 600hz ... The response does increase to 93db a little higher up but the impedance is so high up there that i would not take it seriously ...
I would place the PA380 driver in the same "Bass and low-mids only" category as the Pioneer TS-W1200Pro and Dayton PA-385S-8 ..
The 15LB100 and 15TBX40 have much lower "Le" figures and carry out well into the upper midrange frequencies so i would consider them to be wideband drivers suitable for use in a two-way application ...
that's beautiful work by tb46 - - hopefully my toy list will get around to either MMJ's Karlflex or TB46's design for a B&C15. First will come an ~100Hz horn by RCA-Fan for a 12" - be nice if it could reach 80.
Freddi ,
This Rca-Fan FLH is sure to be a super punchy midbass monster
By the way Freddi,
I have something for you
Because the Dayton 15 is selling for such a low price right now i did some simulations (quick & dirty HR method) with the PA-380 in a Karlflex tuned to a fundamental of 40hz, and it is not entirely horrible i suppose, it's bottom end basically matches Schlager's 15LB100 driver in a 120L cabinet which is decent, and when compared to the Pioneer Pro12 in a 60L Karlflex i can see that the Pioneer has 2 decibels less output but that is in a cabinet that is half the size, which is no big surprise ....... So ok, not terrible really considering the price of the Dayton right now.
For perspective I also compared it to your 15TBX40 and your B&C has a FIVE decibel advantage in max output (largely due to the XMAX rating), but as you know the B&C would also cost five times as much
if that model was still sold .... Here is a downside to the Dayton 15:
Unfortunately i do not think that the PA-380 is suitable for wideband operation due to the very high voicecoil inductance which prevents it from having solid output at the upper frequencies ... Looking at the published graphs for this driver reveals that the Impedance curve is creeping up towards a 20 ohm load at around 500hz and the SPL @1w dips below 90db between 500hz and 600hz ... The response does increase to 93db a little higher up but the impedance is so high up there that i would not take it seriously ...
I would place the PA380 driver in the same "Bass and low-mids only" category as the Pioneer TS-W1200Pro and Dayton PA-385S-8 ..
The 15LB100 and 15TBX40 have much lower "Le" figures and carry out well into the upper midrange frequencies so i would consider them to be wideband drivers suitable for use in a two-way application ...
Pioneer TS-W1200Pro cone deflection
Speaking of that oddball Pioneer Pro12 driver, are we sure it has only 6mm of XMAX? I have seen a few folks on youtube getting quite a bit of cone movement ... Good to know that it doesn't bottom out easily .. .
Check out the video:
https://youtu.be/Xt6X-j233ng
Speaking of that oddball Pioneer Pro12 driver, are we sure it has only 6mm of XMAX? I have seen a few folks on youtube getting quite a bit of cone movement ... Good to know that it doesn't bottom out easily
.. .Check out the video:
https://youtu.be/Xt6X-j233ng
good the Pioneer can move quite a bit without immediate failure - re:midbass horn is little - should be somewhat more efficient than a K but a K might produce a more visceral sensation of kick/"hit" - part of it must be the way humans react to that type of sound - take away some of the treble.
A K-tube on top of a wideband K-flex may work well - tubes significantly larger than the driver's exit will likely have roughness from the abrupt jump in transition area. Carl claims this doesn't matter much as response will vary as the mic moves. Inageshack has removed my graph of one X15 type tube vs a 1" diameter tube
here's a discussion on K-tubes - the tubes with a "pointed" end are probably using an exponential function - Transylvania used an ellipse based slot - Karlson used a parabolic slot in the two different X15 tubes seen so far. One tube was 1.875"ID - the other looked to be around 1.25"
http://hi-fidelity-forum.com/forum/thread-69187-page-2.html
A K-tube on top of a wideband K-flex may work well - tubes significantly larger than the driver's exit will likely have roughness from the abrupt jump in transition area. Carl claims this doesn't matter much as response will vary as the mic moves. Inageshack has removed my graph of one X15 type tube vs a 1" diameter tube
here's a discussion on K-tubes - the tubes with a "pointed" end are probably using an exponential function - Transylvania used an ellipse based slot - Karlson used a parabolic slot in the two different X15 tubes seen so far. One tube was 1.875"ID - the other looked to be around 1.25"
http://hi-fidelity-forum.com/forum/thread-69187-page-2.html
Last edited:
I just eyeball draw and scissor cut my K-Tubes and judge by ear. I like tubes that have round ends so they open up wide toward the mouth and I much prefer the double cutaway. I position them parallel to the floor centred at my seated ear height and from the sweet spot I can look straight down the centre of each tube. Sure works for me. Thank you to Freddy for pestering me and I do appologize for waiting so long to try them. I think a Karlson of some sort is in the future for my system in the mid bass some time soon. Had a bunch including a K15 and they can hit like jack hammers. very clean to. Best regards Moray James.
PS: Freddy hope you are doing/feeling a little better these days.
Hi freddi,
Just very briefly to the enclosure from Post #1188,etc. w/ the B&C 15PZB40. After a bit of simulating I can get a reasonably flat response with this driver up to about 500Hz. After that it looses output rapidly. I also haven't been able to convert the simulation back into an enclosure drawing (I had to make some changes to the Post #1188 simulation to improve the response). I'm still working on it when I have a little time. Probably not today...
Regards,
Just very briefly to the enclosure from Post #1188,etc. w/ the B&C 15PZB40. After a bit of simulating I can get a reasonably flat response with this driver up to about 500Hz. After that it looses output rapidly. I also haven't been able to convert the simulation back into an enclosure drawing (I had to make some changes to the Post #1188 simulation to improve the response). I'm still working on it when I have a little time. Probably not today...
Regards,
Slotted K-tube made of cardboard with Selenium D220ti compression driver
I have an update for anyone who has an interest in slotted K-tubes tubes .....
I found a nearly perfect thick cardboard tube with 1-1/8th" inner diameter, i snipped a 6" length and used an x-acto blade to cut the slot with a contour that looked as close to Freddi's examples as i could get it, then i screwed the tube onto the Selenium D220ti and tightened it with a small pipe clamp ....
I am listening to the result right now and i like it!
It is only using a simple 2uf poly cap (from ApexJr) in series as the the high pass filter ..... Has a very natural sound, and really isn't much hotter than the transformer driven Frankenpiezo i was using before (no more than 2db difference it seems to me) ..
I will post a few pictures soon ..
I have an update for anyone who has an interest in slotted K-tubes tubes .....
I found a nearly perfect thick cardboard tube with 1-1/8th" inner diameter, i snipped a 6" length and used an x-acto blade to cut the slot with a contour that looked as close to Freddi's examples as i could get it, then i screwed the tube onto the Selenium D220ti and tightened it with a small pipe clamp ....
I am listening to the result right now and i like it!
It is only using a simple 2uf poly cap (from ApexJr) in series as the the high pass filter ..... Has a very natural sound, and really isn't much hotter than the transformer driven Frankenpiezo i was using before (no more than 2db difference it seems to me) ..
I will post a few pictures soon ..