Not the same but interesting :
https://pkaudio.webnode.cz/32w18mbe/
Nearfield I didn't notice a lot of difference with a 5" C16N and a 7" W18NX, it is important to have a good midrange. The sound is a little bigger with the 7" because the 7" was a bigger loudspeaker.
I did some comparing, it seems that the 15 might be more interesting to me than the 18. I calculated the 15 in a 15L enclosure and the 18 in a 20L enclosure.
The 18 can handle 50 watts without exceeding cone excursion with a 40hz highpass filter appplied. The 15 Can handle 30 watts with a 50hz highpass filter applied. Being able to reach 50 watts is nice but maybe not necessary. If anyone has an opinion on this please let me know.
The 18 has an F3 of 72Hz, and an F6 of 55Hz and an F10 of 43Hz.
The 15 has an F3 of 66Hz, an F6 of 53Hz and an F10 of 44Hz.
So I think the 15 would be more pleasing to me because it reaches a decent amount lower. And you guys said it will also potentially crossover higher and play better midrange.
Another advantage is that I can make a lighter and smaller box for the 15.
I have never had speakers that small tho, am I making a compromise by only being able to handle 30 Watts?
Thanks, here are the graphs.
The 18 can handle 50 watts without exceeding cone excursion with a 40hz highpass filter appplied. The 15 Can handle 30 watts with a 50hz highpass filter applied. Being able to reach 50 watts is nice but maybe not necessary. If anyone has an opinion on this please let me know.
The 18 has an F3 of 72Hz, and an F6 of 55Hz and an F10 of 43Hz.
The 15 has an F3 of 66Hz, an F6 of 53Hz and an F10 of 44Hz.
So I think the 15 would be more pleasing to me because it reaches a decent amount lower. And you guys said it will also potentially crossover higher and play better midrange.
Another advantage is that I can make a lighter and smaller box for the 15.
I have never had speakers that small tho, am I making a compromise by only being able to handle 30 Watts?
Thanks, here are the graphs.
Just for reference, give a look at this
https://sbacoustics.com/product/bromo/
https://sbacoustics.com/product/bromo/
Alright thanks a lot, I'll get a 3D model and some baffle dimensions with those smaller ones.
So I am down to tweeter choice. I saw Sandi Speak has some nice offerings that people like. But do you guys think a ribbon tweeter is still an option here? The Aurum Cantus G2 seems to be a pretty good value, and Aurum Cantus has a decent reputation for ribbons wherever I read online. They make some bookshelf speakers too with their ribbons. They have some newer ones that are a bit pricey, but the G2 tweeter is from the 90s and I can get it around 130USD per unit at the moment. I think they used that one in their Leisure 2 bookshelves. Before I found those Seas drivers that started this thread, I was eyeing their woofer too and I would have been able to just do the same as their bookshelf speakers that people online said sounded pretty good, especially for their price. The reason i actually looked into the Seas drivers i because someone wrote in some old discussion that pairing a ribbon tweeter works better with metal woofers vs fabric or carbon fiber or etc... I have a feeling you guys might advise me against the ribbon tweeter tho, it does seem to need some extra attention in the crossover and etc.. So any chance for a ribbon in my build or should i get my mind off that?
Its a nice little speaker, apparently it's punchy haha, that's what I am after. The ceramic tweeter seems quite interesting too.
Yeah I saw! That build would be considerably cheaper then mine regardless of ceramic or metal. It's not really what I am trying to accomplish with all the time invested into this though. I believe I am quite happy with the Scan speak revelators in a sealed cabinet. I just need to figure out if I can go for a ribbon tweeter or not.
Per the review on my website, I provide the IEC standard which I provide the results from (IEC 62458) as well as the different procedures used to arrive at this data. Here is a copy/paste in case you missed it:
-------------------------------------------
Large Signal Modeling (Linear Xmax Results)
Using Klippel’s Distortion Analyzer 2, Large Signal Identification Module, Pro Driver Stand and provided Panasonic ANR12821 Laser along with Klippel’s Training 3 - Loudspeaker Nonlinearities tutorial, I measured the linear, nonlinear and thermal parameters of this drive unit.
Nonlinearities
Traditionally, Xmax has been defined in one of the following ways:
- the physical overhang of the voice coil (height of the voice coil relative to height of the gap)
- 115% times the physical overhang above
- the point where displacement limit(s) is/are exceeded
There are one of two sets of thresholds which can be used to define linear excursion:
- Non-Subwoofer Drivers: The thresholds Blmin= 82 %, Cmin=75 %, Zmax=10 % and d2=10% generate for a two-tone-signal (f1=fs, f2=8.5fs) 10 % total harmonic distortion and 10 % intermodulation distortion.
- Subwoofer Drivers: The thresholds Blmin= 70 %, Cmin=50 %, Zmax=17 % create 20 % total harmonic distortion which is becoming the standard for acceptable subwoofer distortion thresholds.
These parameters are defined in more detail in the (Klippel) papers:
- “AN04 – Measurement of Peak Displacement Xmax”
- “AN05 - Displacement Limits due to Driver Nonlinearities”
- “AN17 - Credibility of Nonlinear Parameters”
- “Prediction of Speaker Performance at High Amplitudes”
- “Assessment of Voice Coil Peak Displacement Xmax”
- “Assessing Large Signal Performance of Loudspeakers”
Below are the displacement limits’ results for this drive unit obtained from Klippel’s LSI module:
| Displacement Limits | |||
|---|---|---|---|
| X Bl @ Bl min=82% | 5.1 | mm | Displacement limit due to force factor variation |
| X C @ C min=75% | 2.8 | mm | Displacement limit due to compliance variation |
| X L @ Z max=10 % | >5.2 | mm | Displacement limit due to inductance variation |
| X d @ d2=10% | 28.0 | mm | Displacement limit due to IM distortion (Doppler) |
| Asymmetry (IEC 62458) | |||
| Ak | 15.68 | % | Stiffness asymmetry Ak(Xpeak) |
| Xsym | -0.60 | mm | Symmetry point of Bl(x) at maximal excursion |
Per the above table, this drive unit’s linear excursion is limited to 2.8mm due to exceeding the compliance variation displacement limit of 75% for the distortion limit of 10%.
Bottom Line
T/S Parameters and Linear Excursion:
- One-way linear excursion measured approximately 2.8mm for this test sample. This is very low for a midwoofer and indicates this particular drive unit is best served as a midrange. I’d be leery of pushing this below 80Hz (as a starting point).
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Hey, I hope you are all doing well, I have another question which will influence my tweeter choice. Actually two questions.
First, I have heard that I should pair a ribbon tweeter with a "fast" midwoofer, or else they will sound too separated. I have searched quite a bit and can't find out if the Revelator that i am choosing, the 15W/8530K01 is fast or not. I am not sure what specs to look at. My intuition tells me that coated paper would likely be slower then a some light metal, but correct me if I am wrong.
Second question, which is becoming quite a concern to me, is about the punchiness of the tweeter. I saw a few youtube videos of poeple explaining the positives and negatives of tweeters, and ribbon tweeter seem to excel at the trailing of instruments like cimbals and sound very open, which sounds nice to me, but the seem to lack in the "attack" and "full bodied sound" which translates to punchiness in my mind. Should I be concerned about punchiness in the tweeter?
Thank you very kindly for your opinions.
First, I have heard that I should pair a ribbon tweeter with a "fast" midwoofer, or else they will sound too separated. I have searched quite a bit and can't find out if the Revelator that i am choosing, the 15W/8530K01 is fast or not. I am not sure what specs to look at. My intuition tells me that coated paper would likely be slower then a some light metal, but correct me if I am wrong.
Second question, which is becoming quite a concern to me, is about the punchiness of the tweeter. I saw a few youtube videos of poeple explaining the positives and negatives of tweeters, and ribbon tweeter seem to excel at the trailing of instruments like cimbals and sound very open, which sounds nice to me, but the seem to lack in the "attack" and "full bodied sound" which translates to punchiness in my mind. Should I be concerned about punchiness in the tweeter?
Thank you very kindly for your opinions.
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1. The important thing is make a good crossover with a good phase tracking, fast/slow has no importance. Ribbon or dome should not be the subject but how do you make a good crossover. It is a large subject.
2. It depends on the quality of the crossover and the components. The treble starts at 1.25kHz, a part of the treble us reproduced by the woofer.
The two questions are link each other. Think about what I wrote before about make LR2 slope, and make align acoustic center of the woofer and the tweeter with a waveguide or a baffle offset.
2. It depends on the quality of the crossover and the components. The treble starts at 1.25kHz, a part of the treble us reproduced by the woofer.
The two questions are link each other. Think about what I wrote before about make LR2 slope, and make align acoustic center of the woofer and the tweeter with a waveguide or a baffle offset.
Yes for the treble @planet10 and to be clear for the listener reader, I use Troëls Gravesen frequency classification :
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/frequency_ranges.htm
There are other frequency range like
20-200 bass 200-2000 mid 2k-20k treble.
It is safe to know what is the frequency range we are talking about
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/frequency_ranges.htm
There are other frequency range like
20-200 bass 200-2000 mid 2k-20k treble.
It is safe to know what is the frequency range we are talking about
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I feel the rule of 2s posted above is decently close. Upper bass does extend to 200Hz.
When you consider the fundamental of cymbals can be 300-600Hz, and that is thought of treble, the first harmonic is 1.2k on the high end. I would however draw the hard line at 1k as no treble exists below there for sure.
When you consider the fundamental of cymbals can be 300-600Hz, and that is thought of treble, the first harmonic is 1.2k on the high end. I would however draw the hard line at 1k as no treble exists below there for sure.
Well that was in part my question I guess, if I like punchy bass, do you think I would like a tweeter that has more presence and "attack" as people describe it. Only point of comparison I have are headphones, I have never tried planar magnetic heapdhones but I have some akg K712 that I love now, but when I transitioned from the old Akg Sextetts, the K712's seemed very far from the ear, almost sounded hollow to me. I read that planar magnetics are like that vs regular woofers which are more up close and present. So I am wondering if a ribbon would not be as present and forward as a regular dome tweeter. Thank you