I think the Revelators have a smooth warm tint to it's sound while the Seas is a bit more neutral. Both really good, pick your poison.
But again, I believe the SB 5" is better than any of those two and a lot cheaper also.
I have four w22 and four w15 (and a bunch of 5" Revelators) to build something with but its more for nostalgic reasons.
But again, I believe the SB 5" is better than any of those two and a lot cheaper also.
I have four w22 and four w15 (and a bunch of 5" Revelators) to build something with but its more for nostalgic reasons.
15W revelator paper is also very easy to work with, very smooth.
If you are interested in U16/18 check this:
https://pkaudio.webnode.cz/u18d2604/
If you are interested in U16/18 check this:
https://pkaudio.webnode.cz/u18d2604/
Jonasz: I would parhaps agree if we talk about using them as midrange. SB15 doing also bass, I am very skeptical.
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That looks good, it is very difficult to choose between these drivers. I can get a pair of the Seas W15 for about 600 CAD right now on sale. I Found a pair of ScanSpeak 15 revelators for sealed enclosure for 500 CAD and I can get a pair of the U18 for about 450 CAD. The U18 are the only ones that are not on sale. The U18 would play louder than both others and pair well with the original tweeter I wanted (I think anyways), the Aurum Cantus G2. But the Seas Excel is more high end and usually used in very expensive speakers, so I am leaning towards it for that reason. And the Revelator would mean I can build a sealed enclosure, which was my goal at the very start of this project. Very difficult choice.
W15 Revelator needs a notch to tame the ringing it has at just below 1k. Look up Paul Carmody's Carreras for reference there, and I believe he used the same notch Troels did with his build. One of the best 5.5" woofers out there, IMO, vented or sealed version.
It is hard to pick of bass, sensitivity, and xover complexity.
The U18 or U16 have got to be 2 of the easiest to use.
The 8530K01 is good at bass, I think the 8530K00 is better myself at bass, and those ore 2 of the best in 15 ltrs that can also play upper midrange. If you just want bass, that opens more options.
The Excels are clean units, but take a bit of electrical prowess to make them great. If you live near the ocean, I hear from threads in this forum that the AlMg cones do not fare well with the wind and salt. That could be someting to consider as well.
The SB17CAC should also be on your list....
It is hard to pick of bass, sensitivity, and xover complexity.
The U18 or U16 have got to be 2 of the easiest to use.
The 8530K01 is good at bass, I think the 8530K00 is better myself at bass, and those ore 2 of the best in 15 ltrs that can also play upper midrange. If you just want bass, that opens more options.
The Excels are clean units, but take a bit of electrical prowess to make them great. If you live near the ocean, I hear from threads in this forum that the AlMg cones do not fare well with the wind and salt. That could be someting to consider as well.
The SB17CAC should also be on your list....
It seems that a lot of people are saying this, if the Curv woofer is maybe better than the Magnesium, why is the Magnesium an Exel woofer and much more expensive while the Curv is a Prestige. I am attracted to high end things but the more I hear the more i think maybe I will be happy with the Curv instead of the other choices. I do want a nice solid low end but I think with a 7" Curv I should be able to obtain that.
Those are nice, thanks for sharing. Ported I see. Do you think I will have any audible benefit of using the Qts 5 version designed for sealed enclosures and go for a sealed enclosure? Many people say that sealed is a bit better, and a lot of high end speakers are sealed, but there are plenty of ported high end speakers too. If I go revelator, it would be to be able to do a sealed design, if I go ported I will maybe choose the U18. Being able to play upper midrange would be nice if I use a ribbon tweeter, I heard the ribbons are sort of thin sounding in the mids. I used to have paradigm speakers and they sounded clean but thin compared to my B&W's I have now, and I know I prefer a fuller richer sound. If I remember correctly, the revelators dont crossover as high as the Curv right?
Yes thanks, I am in the Canadian Prairies, so very dry, but i do occasionally use a humidifier in my room for my plants, so the magnesium could potentially be worrying.
Wow that one plays low, its also a little bit cheaper, and it looks pretty nice. I am not a huge fan of the white, but I could figure something out in the design, or rely on the dust cover to cover it. Why are SB woofers cheaper, is it because they are made in Indonesia? (which is not necessarily a bad thing), or is it because they lack something that the ScanSpeak and Seas have? Thanks
Price is far from a reliable measure of speaker quality.
You will find that every loudspeaker is a (huge) set of compromises.
The magnesium cone is an attempt to keep pistonic motion but the compromise is the tremendous amount of ringing high up.
As said a notch can bandaid the ringing, but, despite what has been said by some, it has been shown that the HD is still there. The kind of loudspeaker, IME, that has a “HiFi” sheen in the upper mid/lower treble. This can be quite fatiging. A more complex XO usually does not help.
A more well behaved driver may give up some of that pistonic range, but the entire premise of maintaining piston behaviur is questionable. Especially when you realize that a full-range driver (widerange probably a better term), is pistonic at LF and goes into a chaotic mode (not pistonic) for the HF. Quality of the top end becomes a case of how well the designer did at achieving "controlled chaos”. Given how good some FRs sound, and how bad some “high-end” ones don’t the permise is suspect. I most often find these uncomfortable sounding pricey loudspeakers use drivers with VERY stiff cones of ceramic, metal, or enginnered plastics like kevlar.
dave
Execution is critical.
Sealed rolls off more gently, and does not unload below the tuning. A vented box uses the out-of-phase energy of the back of the driver to use a helmholtz resonance to increase the bass levels at lower frequencies but completely lose it below that. Sealed will typically have better phase response, and blends better with the room if it has lots of room gain.
Drivers available to do a sealed enclosure are much rarer than ones that suit a vented enclosure. And with more degrees of freedomne oit is way easier to design a bad reflex.
Compromises. Many!
Since yhe first post i have feared that a rookie attempt to build a high end loudspeaker will end in dismal failure. Too many choices, and insufficient experience to know when you are heading the wrong way.
Many users, with different experience, tastes, and use needs just leaves the OP with too much information to try to sort.
I wil again emphasize, sucess is much, much more likely, if the first build is modest with the purpose of getting some real-world experience that will inevitably save a lot of time and money.
Given the OP’s styateof confusion o would recommend something like CHN-50 in a 2.5ish litre reflex and see where you are. Why that one? Real cheap, real good. WOn’t do a lot of bass, but wiil cost less than taking the SO to a nice dinner. When you finish the learning experience you have a nice set of small loudspeakers that can be repirposed (ir put in abriefcase with a small amp and you have a portable hifi to take with you).’'
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...mark-audio-chn50-3-magnesium-cone-full-range/
dave
Problem is that SB Acoustic's non-Satori drivers has limited xmax. If you read the review of SB17CAC on erinsaudiocorner, the measured xmax is just 2.8mm, falls short to SB's calculated xmax of 6mm, while reviews of Scanspeak's Revelator (22W/8857 and 26W/8867) by Erin on his old website and and Illuminator (18MU and 12WU) shows measured xmax equal to the value in datasheet from Scanspeak. The much lower xmax limited the low frequency performance of these drivers, that why they are much prefered to be used as midrange (>200Hz) rather than midwoofer of Scanspeak's Revelator and Illuminator.
Most of Seas's Prestige line drivers are long throw design, so they are more appropriated for midwoofer task than SB17CAC. For Excel line drivers of Seas, even though they are not superior to SB's standard line in terms of xmax, they have much stronger motor, so low frequency performance is better than Sb's midwoofer driver. SB's woofer line is also great, but they are an great choice for woofer task (<200Hz) rather than midwoofer task.
So, for me, there are not only marketing/brands recognition that makes Scanspeak's Revelator and Seas more expensive than SB, but performance too. If you are doing two way speaker then Scanspeak (Revelator and Illuminator) and Seas is better than SB's standard line, while SB is better if you are doing three or four ways. But two ways is a much wider market nowadays.
Most of Seas's Prestige line drivers are long throw design, so they are more appropriated for midwoofer task than SB17CAC. For Excel line drivers of Seas, even though they are not superior to SB's standard line in terms of xmax, they have much stronger motor, so low frequency performance is better than Sb's midwoofer driver. SB's woofer line is also great, but they are an great choice for woofer task (<200Hz) rather than midwoofer task.
So, for me, there are not only marketing/brands recognition that makes Scanspeak's Revelator and Seas more expensive than SB, but performance too. If you are doing two way speaker then Scanspeak (Revelator and Illuminator) and Seas is better than SB's standard line, while SB is better if you are doing three or four ways. But two ways is a much wider market nowadays.
Thanks, you have a lot of knowledge, I enjoy reading all of this. Do you dislike Kevlar? My favorite speakers so far are B&W Kevlar, they sound dry but nice. Warm even. (I might be completely off with my adjectives as I have heard few speakers in my life compared to you guys).
Kinda meaningless.
Given no definition for how to measure xMax all that suggest is that SB uses P-P and Erin used one way.
dave
Hmm, my room has different kinds of wood on all surfaces, and it is pretty small. I would say 10 to 11 ft from front (where the speakers will be) to rear wall. The Front wall has a lower ceiling, maybe 8' and the ceiling gradually rises to maybe 11'. The other room dimension is about 10-11' as well.
Yes. Started with the B&Ws.
nearly 60 years of playing with loudspeakers i have heard many, had th eopportunity to learn, unlearn, and relearn all sorts of things, and have formed strong opinions.
dave
Small room, typically more room gain, and room isses uphighe rin frequency. A sloped ceiling does a signifcant amount to help with room resonances. 11 foot room, with 11’ foot bit of ceiling is close to square which could make thigns worse.
Sometimes in a room like this less bass is better than more. Keep in mind all your sims assume no room/anechoic.
dave
Sometimes in a room like this less bass is better than more. Keep in mind all your sims assume no room/anechoic.
dave
I appreciate the concern, but theoretically if I have the right tweeter and woofer for the size of enclosure I am building. What could go wrong other than the XO? As I stated before, the XO can be redone as many times as I need in the future until I get it right no? I am not building speakers for the fun of it, and I will not be building many pairs in the upcoming future, my goal is to beat my B&W CMD1 SE's that I am perfectly happy with. I don't even need to build the speakers as I am really really happy with those B&W's but I saw all these drivers and tweeters and I got hungry for a good build. The part I love about this is the 3D rendering and visual design, but I would like a good sound as well. I am also worried about resale value, hence why I am trying to choose drivers used in high end builds so that I can show potential buyers in the future that other very expensive speakers use the same parts I used. The future buyers will probably not know THAT much about actual woofers and XO and all that, they will just see that the drivers are used in 5k to 10k speakers. Its not the biggest deal if I don't get something popular in high end speakers, but it would make resale one day easier.
Okay that's quite interesting. Would you say its subjective that stiffer materials sound worse to you or do you think that stiffer cones really do harm the sound in the end? I read a lot that stiffer makes generally stronger and cleaner bass, but that could be wrong.