Are you keeping the case you used for the assembled amplifier? If so, it shouldn't be hard to find a similar width, if not a matching, plain preamp case on the 'Bay. It may be a tad large for the duty but there are plenty of options around that size.
Ah...some of that P,R,T showing through. The next question is; what does it do for your favourite foot-tappin' type tunes?
For me, the recordings made in this studio are presented as a standard of maximum quality. They sound so natural that it seems: the musicians are right in the room! Stunning transparency and airiness! Also good are the recordings from Concord Jazz and DMP.
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Hi Ian, I have four of these cases, been sitting around for ages so I thought I'd put a different amplifier in each box - I'm keen to ween myself off amplifier building but it's tough! That's partly the motivation for this project, to use these boxes up. One box for TGM1i (ready, needs a tweak or two), one box for TGM8 (ready), one box for TGM10 (ready) and the last one for TGM11 (bare pcb waiting for experiments). It would be easy enough to buy another of these boxes (ePay) and use it for a pre-amp but I guess it's not essential that it matches up as I'll also be adding a new source and that won't match.
Foot-tappin ? - well I have very limited access to music at the moment. I sold off my CD player as I don't listen to CD's much as I prefer to mix and match. I just kept a few favourite discs for myself. The rest of the discs were mostly female vocal and recently found in the glove box of my other car (today was the first time I felt like sitting in front of my speakers to listen to music for a long time, which is a strong endorsement of this latest amp!).
My plan is to get a music streamer to access music off my computer and the internet (been looking at some mid-end stuff as it's crazy to spend big $ on digital when DACs appear to be evolving quickly).
Now, I do have an old Pioneer turntable I bought used because I thought it would be fun to own one again. It's still on a shelf somewhere - I've got 3 albums ready to play, so far heard them only through an old Marantz receiver (also ePay) that I may 'improve' one of these days.
Nikolai - do Concord and DMP offer music on-line too ?
Foot-tappin ? - well I have very limited access to music at the moment. I sold off my CD player as I don't listen to CD's much as I prefer to mix and match. I just kept a few favourite discs for myself. The rest of the discs were mostly female vocal and recently found in the glove box of my other car (today was the first time I felt like sitting in front of my speakers to listen to music for a long time, which is a strong endorsement of this latest amp!).
My plan is to get a music streamer to access music off my computer and the internet (been looking at some mid-end stuff as it's crazy to spend big $ on digital when DACs appear to be evolving quickly).
Now, I do have an old Pioneer turntable I bought used because I thought it would be fun to own one again. It's still on a shelf somewhere - I've got 3 albums ready to play, so far heard them only through an old Marantz receiver (also ePay) that I may 'improve' one of these days.
Nikolai - do Concord and DMP offer music on-line too ?
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My Ion clone was possibly the 2nd best amp I've ever built. I wish I had not dismantled it to build something else
. It would have been very interesting to hear it back to back with the NAP200 clone.The sound of the pre is so heavily influenced by the PS, that you could rephrase your question as:
How many people listen to an original Naim without a Naim pre-amp and PS ? - does anybody really listen to the sound of the power amp without it being coloured in some way by the pre and the PS?
I have a time aligned filter and Naim buffer modified to be a 2nd order XO for my semi active system (the gain stage is where most of the colouration comes from). It's good, but once again, Nigel knows!... It's possible to do better with opamps.
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It does seem that the external power supply, HiCap, is a well regarded upgrade for the rather basic 3-legged regulator inside the old NAP140. Interesting choice to place the regulator in the power-amp box when it would make sense to have it in the pre-amp box near the circuit it's serving. Their latest and greatest use fancy discrete regulators.
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I am a supporter of the material carrier of musical files (CD), so I was not interested in Internet broadcasting ....
My Ion clone was possibly the 2nd best amp I've ever built. I wish I had not dismantled it to build something else
Is this nap200 cct can be found somewhere? I have a feeling that it uses fast output transistor. Then probably without driver's base compensation or much smaller than 470pf in the RC.
You can see from pics on the internet that the output transistors are MT200 package and they are the same 2SC2922 Sanken LAPTs that Naim had been fitting in many NAP models since 1989.
You might also read this section in the Ebay clone thread for yourself, where Algar_emi has reverse-engineered the schematic from the Caowei clone kit. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/112453-nap-140-clone-amp-kit-ebay-218.html
Ah thx Ian. This is what Bigun should have cloned imho. With faster transistor the ULGF will normally be higher so the compensation would also work in higher frequency. The 470pf doesnt fit anymore and must be lower value. My clone uses 68pf while NAP200 uses 100pf.
NAP200 has 10pf across FB resistor, i can get away without any additional comp. there.
NAP200 has 270-5k6 on the LTP, I have 390-0 (1mA-1.2mA).
I will find the detail of the current distribution in Nap200 ltp so i can create another clone that is close to nap200 (i couldnt find all stated transistors). This way i can get the best possible sound by comparing the two.
But nah i dont think nap200 can beat mine. Some clues on the cct shows that mine is more optimal, such as lower gain, simpler compensation, etc.
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you're not paying attention there dedegogo
The datasheet I attached is what I used. The phase correction networks were adjusted, changing resistor value instead of cap value though. Same result.
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you're not paying attention there dedegogo
The datasheet I attached is what I used. The phase correction networks were adjusted, changing resistor value instead of cap value though. Same result.
Hehe sorry i thought you are using the NAP250 compensation and operating points as shown on the first schematic and also the LTspice file which is in general for 8M output transistor.
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I have found it just below the PCB picture. Around 1.9mA-1.7mA. But then i realized that cloning the clone doesnt make sense if different transistors are used (VAS & LTP). The operating points (or component values) are there to suit the chosen transistor. But i will put the ztx in my shopping list.
Also, one of the member has compared the NAP200 clone with a Nait and the clone win. So whoever said he has never found a clone that is better than original is just didnt go out far enough. It is true that popular clones are wrong but this NAP200 clone is about right.
NAP250
It seems that NAP250 is the reference in Naim lines. May be the original is so good that this is the model that is cloned the most. But when cloner keep the resistors and capitors the same while changing the transistors then they get worse amps. Dave said the Avondale is good enough. Ithink they are even using slower transistor than Naim.
I have a version intended for slow output transistors i have on hand. The compensation is almost similar to NAP250. There is something unique there that i believe is a representation of what people like about Naim sound. But other quality performance is not as good as using faster transistor. Thd is 0.02% in average, but 10kHz THD is scary. I think these represents the real old Naim sound.
It seems that NAP250 is the reference in Naim lines. May be the original is so good that this is the model that is cloned the most. But when cloner keep the resistors and capitors the same while changing the transistors then they get worse amps. Dave said the Avondale is good enough. Ithink they are even using slower transistor than Naim.
I have a version intended for slow output transistors i have on hand. The compensation is almost similar to NAP250. There is something unique there that i believe is a representation of what people like about Naim sound. But other quality performance is not as good as using faster transistor. Thd is 0.02% in average, but 10kHz THD is scary. I think these represents the real old Naim sound.
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Isn't the NAP150 fully regulated ? that's a whole different beast to the famous NAP160.
People say they want to clone such and such an amp. Like me, they probably never heard the original or heard it many years back yet alone heard it in their current home playing the kind of music they like listening to. They might actually be disappointed to hear the original or discover that their speakers and room are 10 times more important than the amp.
I figure you can get enough of a flavour by following the topology, using similar parts in key places (mostly caps) and making sure the compensation is very close. Most old designs can be easily improved on if that's the goal.
People say they want to clone such and such an amp. Like me, they probably never heard the original or heard it many years back yet alone heard it in their current home playing the kind of music they like listening to. They might actually be disappointed to hear the original or discover that their speakers and room are 10 times more important than the amp.
I figure you can get enough of a flavour by following the topology, using similar parts in key places (mostly caps) and making sure the compensation is very close. Most old designs can be easily improved on if that's the goal.
Thats true. There are many electronics experts. But because they dont have good ears they cannot formulate the recipe for good sound. If the recipe or the objective is given then it will be easy for them to achieve it. Its like effect of second order domination. Once they are given that as objective then its very easy to achieve it. But there are many others not in public domain.
I think the model you have in mind there is NAP135 (that's a monobloc version of NAP 250). Both of those early models have regulated supplies. The NAP150 looks much like NAP200 and neither shows any sign of regulation, other than the usual 24V for the preamps. Note that I'm trusting the pic from Suffolk Tony at PFM forum on this , as I haven't personally looked inside one to check.
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It's a good point about total Naim package. I have hunch the NAD3020 early series could do a resonable job of being a fake NAC42.
These look to be possible to use.
Assembeld NAIM NAC42 Single-ended Class A preamp / preamplifier board L1611-23 | eBay
These look to be possible to use.
Assembeld NAIM NAC42 Single-ended Class A preamp / preamplifier board L1611-23 | eBay
That's a good find, Nigel. It seems the Chinese cloners have realised the ongoing demand for higher quality and closer to original design products.
The layout is not related to the original stereo board though, which catered for phono as well as well as line level inputs. They look to have nice star point grounding but I wonder if there are issues with using a pair of these boards - apart from the obvious physical layout and the component types substituted? The attached pic is a "chrome bumper" NAC 42.5 for comparison.
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Here is a silly tip for NAC 32 NAC 42 etc. If you by chance buy one make sure the rubber feet are only finger tight. For whatever reason it has a slightly better sound. This was discovered by a chap called Colin Welford who found it useful when doing demo's not to need a screwdriver to swap boards. To his surprise it sounded better. If you hit the box when playing it is slightly different also. It is heard via the speakers. This came about when I said a 32 I had sounded very flat. He said pull out the boards and put them back plus only finger tight feet. He then said it should be that the boards being cleaned up was the reason, he had doubts it was only that ( me too ). The 32 seemed more likely to do that. If I remember later preamps were hard bolted. They seemed fine! Can't remember if that was 32.5's also.
I think a MC33078 op amp would sound very like a Naim buffer. It loves a gain of one, sounds different at gain two and swings back at gain ten. It could be used with these boards. It also makes a first class MC phono stage in the Naim style. A friend has one in preference over the NAC32.5 MC cards, Hi Cap, NAP250, LP12, Troika. NE5532 sounds about the same for 5 minutes and then starts to give me fatigue. Most posh op amps sound less Naim like to me. He also has a Hi Cap with tone control from an Ex BBC guy. It really works well with a mid priced Naim CD player! That friend would prefer 0.6 mm single core ( like DNM but home made ), the NACA5 is not right for him. He won't change as he is too frightened it might blow up. The BBC Hi Cap was cheap so he took a gamble.
I think a MC33078 op amp would sound very like a Naim buffer. It loves a gain of one, sounds different at gain two and swings back at gain ten. It could be used with these boards. It also makes a first class MC phono stage in the Naim style. A friend has one in preference over the NAC32.5 MC cards, Hi Cap, NAP250, LP12, Troika. NE5532 sounds about the same for 5 minutes and then starts to give me fatigue. Most posh op amps sound less Naim like to me. He also has a Hi Cap with tone control from an Ex BBC guy. It really works well with a mid priced Naim CD player! That friend would prefer 0.6 mm single core ( like DNM but home made ), the NACA5 is not right for him. He won't change as he is too frightened it might blow up. The BBC Hi Cap was cheap so he took a gamble.
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