This is a classic blunder of JV's - even the NAC 22 has this microphonic effect, and bad too. The problem? ha-hah!...It's the contacts on the DIP reed relay muting switches - they may be fine at polite levels in the home but really bad at demo. levels on the wrong (resonant) surface. At the time (mid 1980s) fancy "aerolam" sheet panels were touted as the best support for Linn/Naim kit - perhaps that was the real issue.
As you like anecdotes, my dealer friend had a Linn/Naim setup in his shop but with large, stand mounted monitors to get the SPL up to impressive levels. The preamp sat central on a plate glass counter top about 2.5m away from one speaker. The sound would be overlaid with a background of breaking glass to every bass pulse until the preamp was moved onto soft material, a book etc. That was denied as a fault by the local Naim agent (of course) but his "fix" of a recap and new feet did nothing. I replaced the relay with another brand and though there was great improvement, a small shimmer to the sound was still there unless the preamp was mechanically isolated in some way, such as moving it to to the end of the counter, sitting on book etc.
Do you know of anyone else using reed relays for audio in a Hi-Fi listening environmentl? I don't
Most signal relays used are all the more robust mechanical type with noble metal contacts.Yes, but I it's worth noting that I have built/owned NCC200s twice.... and sold them on twice!
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I like the simplicity of this - probably because there's no power supply inside. Perhaps I should provide access to the power rails of my power-amps at a connector on the back of the chassis so that I can run a cord to a separate pre-amp. The voltage would be relatively high but I'd rather regulate down at the preamp than have the regulator far from the circuit it's regulating.
Why not do both? Regulate in the amp to inhibit amp noise getting into the pre-amp box.
You could also be very trendy and use a wireless charging technique with the pre sitting on top of a pad on the lid of the amp...no, no, no...don't do it...just a joke.
I'm not trying to be evasive but that's a difficult question to answer!
My first set sounded good but not great. I do remember taking them to Avondale and Les pronounced them "correct". They used IPL toroids and On semi output devices (MJ15003 IIRC). The 2nd set used EIs and BUV o/p along with all the recommended components, they were almost great but for some reason they irritated me on certain music. At that point I built the NAP200 clone and decided it was better in all respects, so sold the NCCs.
I never tried all the overkill regulated front end regs, it's possible that would have fixed the slightly irritating (coloured?) sound. However I have been round that loop rather too many times with my old JLH 80W mosfet amps and never felt that regulated supplies was an all round improvement. It's also worth mentioning that 9/10 cats on PFM prefer the NCCs to even very expensive Naim amps.
As I type I'm enjoying the sound with my ESP P101 (1KVA toroid with interwinding screen). The funny thing is I nearly always the prefer the amp I swap to ... so I just keep swapping
I'll take a look.
The P101 certainly has less character then the NAP - as above, I just keep swapping. In the end there all just different version of an illusion (thinking back to my earlier post about how much a recording needs to be tamed to make it suitable for home consumption).
MY_Ref FE currently under construction:- for another version of the illusion
Edit: Just found the TGM8 thread. Looks very interesting.
Lot's of people seem to like the P3A. I build one some years ago and thought it was very harsh and aggressive - not dissimilar to the NAP140 Ebay clones soundwise. I seem to remember using 2SC2292 and its other half in mine, although I would be surprised if that is a problem. I also seem to remember thinking the ESP layout was poor.
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I get a sense that the NAP topology leans towards 'slightly irritating' as a necessary tradeoff to achieve the vivid energetic sound that makes it somewhat addictive. Like most addictive elements in life, best enjoyed in small doses but I'm really pleased I have it in my collection. I find it is only 'too vivid' on certain source material and of course a lot of music has been heavily mixed and processed to give voices more presence. They do this by emphasizing what the guitar boyz call 'the presence region' and this is where our ears are sensitive. People complain about having tone controls in their amp, but if they knew how much the music had already been chopped up, processed and stitched back together again into some kind of Frankenstein they'd be horrified
I will think about adding a clever filter to my pre-amp (bypassable) for dealing with my sensitive hearing (hyperacusis?) based on some taboo circuits as far as hi-fi is concerned.
The TGM8 is an unusual topology where I have changed just about everything possible away from the original P3A, making Rods' amp a poor comparison for anybody thinking about building the TGM8. I changed the front end considerably using an emitter follower to bootstrap the input transistor collector. I use an unusual implementation of two-pole compensation. The output stage uses a pair of MOSFETs in Class C operating in parallel with the regular CFP output to take the strain off the bipolars past an amp or so. In Class C you need no source degeneration to prevent thermal runaway. As a result these MOSFETs provide bone crushing bass response yet the bipolar BJT keeps everything sweet and linear. Amazing amp. But it's nothing like the Naim.
Happy Easter ! - not too much chocolate Brian...
I will think about adding a clever filter to my pre-amp (bypassable) for dealing with my sensitive hearing (hyperacusis?) based on some taboo circuits as far as hi-fi is concerned.
The TGM8 is an unusual topology where I have changed just about everything possible away from the original P3A, making Rods' amp a poor comparison for anybody thinking about building the TGM8. I changed the front end considerably using an emitter follower to bootstrap the input transistor collector. I use an unusual implementation of two-pole compensation. The output stage uses a pair of MOSFETs in Class C operating in parallel with the regular CFP output to take the strain off the bipolars past an amp or so. In Class C you need no source degeneration to prevent thermal runaway. As a result these MOSFETs provide bone crushing bass response yet the bipolar BJT keeps everything sweet and linear. Amazing amp. But it's nothing like the Naim.
Happy Easter ! - not too much chocolate Brian...
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Try solid core wires. It solves some of it. Even 1mm lighting cable spaced at 19 mm is a good start, don't bend the wire more than you need to. 0.6 mm transformer wire is cheap and excellent. Theory has it it's where wires touch that causes HF smearing, some say diode effects of copper compounds. Never buy old NACA4, often it is blackened inside. Naim said the chemical used to make PVC soft is the reason. Naim also said hard PVC has a better sound. Linn copied NACA4 in polythene, it was dreadful ( dull and thich sounding, and harsh, same supplier ). Can't believe I am bothering to say this except I found I couldn't live with NACA5 in the 1980's, my Pro Audio friends are cable atheists and will never discuss it. To be honest that's plain wrong as simple things are true. I use a wire no longer sold called Heywire ( Heybrook ). It is clone DNM. BTW oxygen free is a bit of a myth. Most wire has been more or less that since the 1930's to allow high speed production.
Talking Pro Audio. They do not see how the Naim works as wrong. To them an amplifier is a work tool. They highly respect designers with good ears. Self is seen as a learned atheist much like Richard Dawkins would be. C-Audio and HH made Pro amps well liked for home hi fi. Ben Duncan is liked.
BTW 2 . If someone say 0.6mm too thin, what about 0R22 in the output?
Talking Pro Audio. They do not see how the Naim works as wrong. To them an amplifier is a work tool. They highly respect designers with good ears. Self is seen as a learned atheist much like Richard Dawkins would be. C-Audio and HH made Pro amps well liked for home hi fi. Ben Duncan is liked.
BTW 2 . If someone say 0.6mm too thin, what about 0R22 in the output?
Something to say about solid core. DNM stated that multi strand damages the sound. Others reason that the world apart from the speaker cable is usually one core so why not use solid. Here is something you may never read on the subject.
I was in Belgium putting some Bose 901's in a church. The cable was too short. My French is reasonably OK. I sent out for some 1mm twin and earth lighting cable. I said get 50/100 metres as cheap enough. Back comes the guy with 10 metres and some connector block. It was just enough to do one side and use the existing 79 strand on the other. The longer was a mix of 79 and 1mm ( important to note that ). Now the weirest thing. If DNM are right the 79 strand would ruin the sound and no way out. It was not like that. The single core side sounded like single core more or less ( I did a left-right test, it was so obvious ). 1 mm lighting isn't really a good example, 0.6 mm transformer wire is better. Thus in a subtle way it is filtering. It sounds nothing like usual filtering in that the mid band is clearer and more so than filtering would do. Make of that what you like.
The first ime I ever heard this effect was with reviewer Jimmy Hughes. It was LP12, MF The preamp ( great device that works with Naim ). Krell amps and Linn Isobariks. It was so etched and nice. My friend Martin Had LP12. DNM and NAP135's. Heybrook HB3's with solid core internals and DNM cable ( was cheap then ). That system was the best Naim system I ever heard. However when Martin needed money the amplification became Creek without tone controls type( CAS4140? ). Martin loved it better as the improvements to the system still worked. That was the DNM cable mostly.
Jimmy taught me how to put a LP12 together. For a reviewer he is not daft when workshop skills.
Others have made fortunes doing this. I don't approve, I do hear what they hear. Nordost whilst expensive does work. I am told it came from aircraft where it is less likely to fracture and can run very hot. Lars of Nordost says that whilst a CD might not go much above 20 kHz the rise time in digital can be very fast. He believes we do hear that. It's getting the right compromise. A ribbon is both thick and narrow. The signal when HF likes the narrow and bass likes the thick. They silver plate to 60 micron ( one who knows said ) which seems as good as all silver to them. I am told the middle purity silver sometimes is best ( 4 N's ). Whilst my Pro Audio friends wouldn't pay silly money silver is respected. Good relays often are silver alloys. Soviet resistors often were pure silver wires. They are my favourites, alas I have no idea if possible to get them now. They solder so easilly.
I was in Belgium putting some Bose 901's in a church. The cable was too short. My French is reasonably OK. I sent out for some 1mm twin and earth lighting cable. I said get 50/100 metres as cheap enough. Back comes the guy with 10 metres and some connector block. It was just enough to do one side and use the existing 79 strand on the other. The longer was a mix of 79 and 1mm ( important to note that ). Now the weirest thing. If DNM are right the 79 strand would ruin the sound and no way out. It was not like that. The single core side sounded like single core more or less ( I did a left-right test, it was so obvious ). 1 mm lighting isn't really a good example, 0.6 mm transformer wire is better. Thus in a subtle way it is filtering. It sounds nothing like usual filtering in that the mid band is clearer and more so than filtering would do. Make of that what you like.
The first ime I ever heard this effect was with reviewer Jimmy Hughes. It was LP12, MF The preamp ( great device that works with Naim ). Krell amps and Linn Isobariks. It was so etched and nice. My friend Martin Had LP12. DNM and NAP135's. Heybrook HB3's with solid core internals and DNM cable ( was cheap then ). That system was the best Naim system I ever heard. However when Martin needed money the amplification became Creek without tone controls type( CAS4140? ). Martin loved it better as the improvements to the system still worked. That was the DNM cable mostly.
Jimmy taught me how to put a LP12 together. For a reviewer he is not daft when workshop skills.
Others have made fortunes doing this. I don't approve, I do hear what they hear. Nordost whilst expensive does work. I am told it came from aircraft where it is less likely to fracture and can run very hot. Lars of Nordost says that whilst a CD might not go much above 20 kHz the rise time in digital can be very fast. He believes we do hear that. It's getting the right compromise. A ribbon is both thick and narrow. The signal when HF likes the narrow and bass likes the thick. They silver plate to 60 micron ( one who knows said ) which seems as good as all silver to them. I am told the middle purity silver sometimes is best ( 4 N's ). Whilst my Pro Audio friends wouldn't pay silly money silver is respected. Good relays often are silver alloys. Soviet resistors often were pure silver wires. They are my favourites, alas I have no idea if possible to get them now. They solder so easilly.
Rotel. If you look at Rotel > RA820 ( Stan Curtis ) they have the Cdom Self say's to run away from. They measure great.
Stan Curtis, Engineer, introduction to my website
I am told Bob Stuart, Alan Mornington West, Billy Woodman, Stan and Tim de Paravacini were the audio brainy bunch at Cambridge with Chris Evens of Arcam coming later. It is said the team did the NAP160/250. Some say NAP250 was Pro Audio design. Not really and not called NAP250. It was for an independant broadcaster who might have been Capital Radio. Billy Woodman a man of note. I suspect one of them helped the Sinclair Z30 come to life, or knew who did. Sinclair was always a brainy oufit even if too cheap to work.
Stan Curtis, Engineer, introduction to my website
I am told Bob Stuart, Alan Mornington West, Billy Woodman, Stan and Tim de Paravacini were the audio brainy bunch at Cambridge with Chris Evens of Arcam coming later. It is said the team did the NAP160/250. Some say NAP250 was Pro Audio design. Not really and not called NAP250. It was for an independant broadcaster who might have been Capital Radio. Billy Woodman a man of note. I suspect one of them helped the Sinclair Z30 come to life, or knew who did. Sinclair was always a brainy oufit even if too cheap to work.
Hi Bigun
Just wanted to give a big thumbs up for your efforts thus far with your Naim "clone" journey.
Also a big thanks to all the contributions of members with regards to all the historical and anecdotal references.
Can I be a bit "pushy" and ask that you strongly consider a pre-amp thread to partner TGM10? It seems that it would warrant it and already seems that you are leaning that way.
Great effort so far.
Regards
phunk
Just wanted to give a big thumbs up for your efforts thus far with your Naim "clone" journey.
Also a big thanks to all the contributions of members with regards to all the historical and anecdotal references.
Can I be a bit "pushy" and ask that you strongly consider a pre-amp thread to partner TGM10? It seems that it would warrant it and already seems that you are leaning that way.
Great effort so far.
Regards
phunk
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oh come on Nigel, you gotta be realistic, at 0.6mm there isn't enough space to print those arrows along the side to tell you which way the signal should go
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would you build one yourself ? - if there's some interest in building then it gets a stronger vote ?
Actually, I got some pre-amp stuff to clean up and that would benefit from it's own thread. I had a plan to build a pre-amp last year and got as far as a design, pcb and first test board. But it had issues. The board was all-discrete parts and included a regulated power supply, a phono-stage and a triode buffer. What it didn't have though was a gain stage or any filtering. Based on things I've read about the Naim pre-amps I'd like to consider both.
BTW, those eBay Naim clone boards do look tempting for the pre-amp though don't they.
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oh come on Nigel, you gotta be realistic, at 0.6mm there isn't enough space to print those arrows along the side to tell you which way the signal should go
Put an ohm meter on it. NACA5 would take 1000 amps if starting a car and 50 amps constant at a guess ( 50 C ). I think 2 x 5 metres run of 0.6mm = 0.06 ohms.
Many thought the MF the preamp and the DNM preamps better. The latter used the Naim NAP's to sell their product back in the day whilst prototyping there own. I would suggest some clone cards and some modern op amp buffers. It should be very easy to find the same route as Naim using ears, take off a tiny bit of top end . Unlike power amps, blowing up is less likely.
If your read the Naim link I gave it's Julian Vereker saying NAP200 etc had a different sound due to being Pro version, he mentions NAP140! He says PSU time constants different, CxL I presume. It's in black and white so when people say Naim amps are 80% PSU that also means the sound and not just the mass.
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