Hi Kolby,
Pleased to meet you and I'm happy to discuss all things electrical, I find it fun and invigorating! Send me a PM any time. Since wesayso has moved on and I don't wish to muddy up the thread further I'll give a few last comments and leave it
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Agreed, it is always good to strive to investigate further. That said we have come quite a ways in the last 100 years with our knowledge of how the ear works and have developed a number of metrics for measuring things such as DACs and Amplifiers. What has not changed that much, if at all is how our ear works. At least we do not have fast moving goal post!
We will have to agree to disagree at this point which is ok. With todays metrics and measurement gear it is very very hard to come by with 2 pieces of equipment (DAC and/or AMP) that have different designers that measure exactly the same. I would go so far to say it is very hard with the same model, same PCB, same circuit and same manufacturing run to get 2 units to measure exactly the same with todays measurement gear and known metrics.
I also believe that we are able to measure things that are below the threshold of audibility. Gear (DAC/Amps) that measures very very close in a large number of areas that are level matched and double blind tested I believe would be very hard to pick out. There is a reasonable amount of material written by Toole, Geddes and Harman (which they have graciously shared) that support this view but I concede there are still unknowns that could sway the results; however, that would be the rare case and not the norm (maybe an item that could contribute to the community?).
Since this is DIY audio we thrive on the rare case and that is ok as that is where we usually learn something new! There is always room to learn something new. Measuring and quantifying the entire reproduction chain including the room is an insurmountable accomplishment, I am reduce to the electrical side of things.
Pleased to meet you and I'm happy to discuss all things electrical, I find it fun and invigorating! Send me a PM any time. Since wesayso has moved on and I don't wish to muddy up the thread further I'll give a few last comments and leave it
.Agreed, it is always good to strive to investigate further. That said we have come quite a ways in the last 100 years with our knowledge of how the ear works and have developed a number of metrics for measuring things such as DACs and Amplifiers. What has not changed that much, if at all is how our ear works. At least we do not have fast moving goal post!
We will have to agree to disagree at this point which is ok
. With todays metrics and measurement gear it is very very hard to come by with 2 pieces of equipment (DAC and/or AMP) that have different designers that measure exactly the same. I would go so far to say it is very hard with the same model, same PCB, same circuit and same manufacturing run to get 2 units to measure exactly the same with todays measurement gear and known metrics.I also believe that we are able to measure things that are below the threshold of audibility. Gear (DAC/Amps) that measures very very close in a large number of areas that are level matched and double blind tested I believe would be very hard to pick out. There is a reasonable amount of material written by Toole, Geddes and Harman (which they have graciously shared) that support this view but I concede there are still unknowns that could sway the results; however, that would be the rare case and not the norm (maybe an item that could contribute to the community?).
Since this is DIY audio we thrive on the rare case and that is ok as that is where we usually learn something new! There is always room to learn something new
. Measuring and quantifying the entire reproduction chain including the room is an insurmountable accomplishment, I am reduce to the electrical side of things.Zout of op amps change a lot and is not single number. It is like speaker impedance. Speakers are never a 8 ohms load.
http://www.ti.com/lit/an/slyt677/slyt677.pdf
http://www.ti.com/lit/an/slyt677/slyt677.pdf
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I wouldn't call 600 ohms punishing. 100 ohms would be and that is the ballpark for twisted pair. A shield would lower the Z. Not saying this is root cause but we are looking for 2nd order effects. If you could,do a the sweep into 100 ohms and saw increased thd, that would be a clue. So far,just speculating
On the Xonar Essence ST they used the following opamp:
Isn't that the same/similar as used in the Universal Buffer?
Universal Buffer – Neurochrome
Isn't that the same/similar as used in the Universal Buffer?
Universal Buffer – Neurochrome
Agreed but there are dozens in the recording chain of the music we listen to...
Sure I know. Maybe that music would have sounded better if they had used something else
Some of the very best recordings are made with only tubes in the recording chain.
Thought about you when I read this article....
For me, big chills towards the end of Vangelis - Friends of Mr. Cairo.... every time.
If Listening To Music Gives You Chills You May Have A Unique Brain | IFLScience
For me, big chills towards the end of Vangelis - Friends of Mr. Cairo.... every time.
If Listening To Music Gives You Chills You May Have A Unique Brain | IFLScience
Probably not but from looking at the data sheet, its really quite adequate. OTOH, I'd love to compare its data sheet with what you consider a really good one. I know if I were designing for myself I would pay for a premium device; if I were designing for mass production perhaps not.
Data sheet referenced it as being a high performance version of 1458 op amp. Back in the 70's, 1458 was my bread and butter dual op amp for commodity audio apps. 40-50 years later should find much better devices!
I just have one picture from the data sheet that illuminates previous discussion
Upper left graph shows no significant phase shift until well past 20 khz
Upper right graph shows output limitations with loads under 300 ohms or so. How does this matter? Well cable looks like 100 ohms to the wavefront, which traverses it in a few microseconds, after which the driver sees the input impedance of the amp at the end of the cable. I don't think that is significant for audio. perhaps there could be distortion generated if the cable got long enough.
Lower left graph shows maximum output voltage swing vs frequency. It can swing rail to rail up to 100 khz. Perfectly adequate for audio. Only issue I would see is if the rails weren't far enough apart - i.e. the power supply voltages weren't high enough for the output swing needed.
I don't know enough to say anything about the noise graph but just below I see a teaser title of a graph I'm not showing - THD vs output swing but its a few hundredths of a percent for an audio signal.
Sounds pretty good to me. If you have 5532's in your equipment, I wouldn't worry about them.
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I definitely fall into that category, and always assumed it was potentially a similar experience for everybody?
I don't even need a perfect source to experience it, it is the musical content that triggers it but it does help to have a good source available.
Isn't this quite common among the listeners here on our forum? Honest question
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Lets first state that the M1 DAC does not sound bad, just running it like I have done for the Goldmund I probably eat up too much internal processing space to have it shine. In comparison the Xonar DAC does a better job, though it is a different job. The M1 is an upscaling DAC which could explain some of the difference heard.
However, for both DAC's I experience better results with the JDS Atom added as a pré-amp. It sort of brings back the dynamics that are there at a reduced volume level.
not me, I'm more of a savage beast whose soul gets soothedI definitely fall into that category, and always assumed it was potentially a similar experience for everybody?
I don't even need a perfect source to experience it, it is the musical content that triggers it but it does help to have a good source available.
Isn't this quite common among the listeners here on our forum? Honest question
I definitely fall into that category, and always assumed it was potentially a similar experience for everybody?
I don't even need a perfect source to experience it, it is the musical content that triggers it but it does help to have a good source available.
Isn't this quite common among the listeners here on our forum? Honest question
I have to rectify this a little bit. Thinking about it a bit more, chills down the spine most often have happened when I'm being immersed in audio. Like in a good venue with a great band playing, but I also (quite often, actually) have experienced this at home and even in my Car, which has been prior focus of mine for getting good/great sound.
Now goose bumps, that can happen with more mediocre equipment. The chills may have become more commonplace than I realized at home
.There is a difference, obviously. Although some on the forum might still be of the opinion I'm listening to TV speakers here
.I have this "unique" brain as well. I think it might explain why some people are obsessed with hifi. When I first heard about this not being a universal thing everyone experienced I was quite surprised. I find this happens more frequently when I have good sound. For me it is usually music I like with time signature changes or dynamics.