Alright then.
I also looked at Daytons stuff, but couldn't find something that would match.
Does look like it's either keep going with the TC9 (and keep them away from wild temperature shifts and humidity), or the, quite a bit more expensive, 10F... with unknown reaction to humidity and temperature shifts.
I guess, myself, I'd stick with what I know.
I also looked at Daytons stuff, but couldn't find something that would match.
Does look like it's either keep going with the TC9 (and keep them away from wild temperature shifts and humidity), or the, quite a bit more expensive, 10F... with unknown reaction to humidity and temperature shifts.
I guess, myself, I'd stick with what I know.
Found a video that shows how the connection between lead wires and the voice coil is looking quite different on the 10F. Here's it: 10F unpacking
(no I don't have one on hand yet and don't plan to disassemble the 8424G00's I have to check them)
(no I don't have one on hand yet and don't plan to disassemble the 8424G00's I have to check them)
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In the end the choice is up to you but I can't understand how having to modify the frame of all those drivers to fit seems like a good idea let alone the cost. Modifying the baffle to make it more easy to disassemble and reassemble so drivers can be more easily replaced in situ seems an easy solution.
I understand that you have lost faith in the TC9 somewhat but it's quite possible they came to same realisation as Scanspeak and changed the glue in newer production.
At least another ten years out of new TC9's seems like a no brainer to me... but mine haven't failed so I'm not in the same head space.
I understand that you have lost faith in the TC9 somewhat but it's quite possible they came to same realisation as Scanspeak and changed the glue in newer production.
At least another ten years out of new TC9's seems like a no brainer to me... but mine haven't failed so I'm not in the same head space.
It is unlikely that the knowledge about material choice and corrosion problems could have failed to reach the QC part of Tymphany. Any (large quantity of) new TC9s bought now are likely to have been freshly manufactured. With a decade having passed, there must be a good chance that a serious flaw has been fixed.
Given the cost (money and effort) of the other option, if faced with the same choice, I'd buy a complete new set of TC9s.
I'm not sure what I'd do with the old ones, other than keep them separate and probably dispose of them. I think I might try to test a few to destruction by driving them at low frequency near Xlim. If some fail of the old ones fail quickly I'd possibly test a couple of new ones too, not sure.
Ken
Given the cost (money and effort) of the other option, if faced with the same choice, I'd buy a complete new set of TC9s.
I'm not sure what I'd do with the old ones, other than keep them separate and probably dispose of them. I think I might try to test a few to destruction by driving them at low frequency near Xlim. If some fail of the old ones fail quickly I'd possibly test a couple of new ones too, not sure.
Ken
As long as I'm still posting reasons why I should upgrade I haven't been able to convince myself completely 
.
One thing: I do expect sonic differences between the two driver options. How big of a sonic difference would be hard to predict. DSP will make the difference small, but not non existing. The character of the 10F will shine trough.
Like I said many times, make sure you like the sound of the driver, you'll get it back on steroids.
.One thing: I do expect sonic differences between the two driver options. How big of a sonic difference would be hard to predict. DSP will make the difference small, but not non existing. The character of the 10F will shine trough.
Like I said many times, make sure you like the sound of the driver, you'll get it back on steroids
.Think of all the effort spent masking off the drivers to prevent anything from the cutting process making it in to the guts of the driver, then cutting the frames, cutting yourself on the edges you just made etc. etc.As long as I'm still posting reasons why I should upgrade I haven't been able to convince myself completely
perhaps buy some new TC9s and test them to destruction or compare to old batch
in reliability testing, there is the concept of an accelerated life test, with acceleration provided by temperature. So many hours at really high temperature is equivalent to so many years of normal operation. In this case, I think humidity might also be in order. (as in a pressure cooker ?
and then there is thermal cycling to consider
in reliability testing, there is the concept of an accelerated life test, with acceleration provided by temperature. So many hours at really high temperature is equivalent to so many years of normal operation. In this case, I think humidity might also be in order. (as in a pressure cooker ?
and then there is thermal cycling to consider
Think of all the effort spent masking off the drivers to prevent anything from the cutting process making it in to the guts of the driver, then cutting the frames, cutting yourself on the edges you just made etc. etc.
Just think of building a CNC to get your horn project going, ahhh, the work in that!
I had it all figured out how I could cut the drivers with an easy jig. Yes, lots of work potentially, but very doable as long as you take the time to make it a repeatable job by making some tooling.
Tymphany points to a German importer for questions about the drivers. I had already tried to contact them, but they are closed for the summer holidays. I have emailed them to try and get an answer out of Tymphany.
Either way, If I decide to go for different drivers I'd still like to get an answer from Tymphany. There have been quite a few people that have build arrays or have plans to do so. Many of them may have been inspired by threads like ours. So if we can restore the faith in this driver it would be good for many more people, right?
perhaps buy some new TC9s and test them to destruction or compare to old batch
in reliability testing, there is the concept of an accelerated life test, with acceleration provided by temperature. So many hours at really high temperature is equivalent to so many years of normal operation. In this case, I think humidity might also be in order. (as in a pressure cooker ?
and then there is thermal cycling to consider
I don't need a new hobby, I just want my tunes back!
And getting it almost to the point it could move before deciding to totally rebuild it and the table it sits on to a much higher specJust think of building a CNC to get your horn project going, ahhh, the work in that!
I do hope it does more than just one horn project though. I know you can do it I was only teasing, but the effort is real.
Getting an answer would be great but it is a pretty long term problem on something that doesn't cost much in real terms to replace if needed. If they were to go out of production then that would change things.
Left array is repaired and functioning. So I got a surprise listening session with two functional arrays today.
Settings is still rough, just the usual DRC-FIR fix and no after-work done yet. But I enjoyed myself and the music did sound sweet. Hope it will last me a while. I ended up using butyl rope anyway. I still had some left-overs that I wanted to put to good use.
Settings is still rough, just the usual DRC-FIR fix and no after-work done yet. But I enjoyed myself and the music did sound sweet. Hope it will last me a while. I ended up using butyl rope anyway. I still had some left-overs that I wanted to put to good use.
Aside from the work, or the price difference...
I have a hard time to figure out if a move to the 10F would be a valid choice. I remember liking the 10F 8424G00 in the subjective listening tests we ran here a couple of years ago. I even changed my tonal balance based on what I heard back then.
What I see in the measurements is a somewhat better behaved frequency response from the 10F 8414G10. There aren't many distortion tests that are comparable between the 10F and the TC9, it seems the TC9 can hold it's own there, the 10F might do slightly better.
In a simple WinISD sim, the TC9 can get louder, (a few dB) mainly because it has a hair more x-max: 2,55 mm vs 2,35 mm. The 10F needs less power to make a little more bass (3 dB difference below impedance peak). It's also 1 to 1.5 dB more sensitive overall.
But it isn't a clear winner in a comparison. It doesn't seem to beat the TC9 on all fronts. If the 10F 8424G00 version had a vented spider it would beat the TC9 in every way possible.
The materials are different. The alu basket vs plastic. Glass Fiber vs treated paper. But both sport copper clad aluminium voice coil wires. The fact that the 10F has it on a glass fiber former might be a hair better than the alu former of the TC9? (through using a non conductive former)
Neodymium magnet vs Ceramic (Ferrite).
Set aside price and efforts needed to get them to fit. Pure on material properties, possible listening tests or a pure paper compare. Which of these two would you pick for the "state of the art" (as far as these array compromises make that part possible) frequency shaded array.
I've gone all out several years ago with the construction of my arrays. I would have no problem to invest the time and money to do the same on the drivers front. But I find myself not being able to decide. Maybe it's the fear that it wouldn't match or beat what I have right now if I were to go for the 10F. It still is a big leap of faith.
I've seen all the: 'it's a lot of money' or 'it's a lot of work' posts, I'd like to see the other side, letting go of those two conditions. Which one inspires the most confidence of being a solid performer. Does the higher Bl or the better behaved FR and possibly lower distortion (just a hair) give the 10F 8414G10 the advantage? Would it for instance be a more detailed sounding driver?
I can make the TC9 sound natural, even 'analog like' with all my digital means, subjectively speaking. I've had 3 days of listening to these with both arrays functional. I can hear differences compared to the non shaded arrays. Even before final EQ I have come to a few preliminary conclusions.
- The effect of the room has diminished further, meaning the sound is less influenced by floor/ceiling bounces. Less energy is sprayed to the ceiling and it is noticeable. It used to image higher than it does now. I always felt like the sound was coming from an elevated level with unshaded arrays. That effect is way less pronounced.
- The sounds are more sharp/defined. Less fuzzy if you will. I guess the more focused high frequencies are responsible for that. Not a huge difference but noticeable in details. Sounds like a sharper leading edge, by lack of better means to describe it. I can play with perception of it by use of the ambience channels. One thing is clear: I would not want to be without the ambience!
Do I like it? I still have lots of work to do, remeasuring and adjusting everything, but I am amazed how good it sounds without much effort! It isn't where I want it and I'm a bit reluctant to put in the work to get it there. Knowing a driver could fail on me at any moment makes it less fun to commit. But what I hear is worth more time to work on! It's more than promising. Goose bumps have been a big part of the listening.
I've learned the difference between good and great can be some small tweaks, so I really should try and get it there, if no driver fails on me...
The length of this post clearly shows my troubled mind... what to do (without thinking of money and work involved)
I have a hard time to figure out if a move to the 10F would be a valid choice. I remember liking the 10F 8424G00 in the subjective listening tests we ran here a couple of years ago. I even changed my tonal balance based on what I heard back then.
What I see in the measurements is a somewhat better behaved frequency response from the 10F 8414G10. There aren't many distortion tests that are comparable between the 10F and the TC9, it seems the TC9 can hold it's own there, the 10F might do slightly better.
In a simple WinISD sim, the TC9 can get louder, (a few dB) mainly because it has a hair more x-max: 2,55 mm vs 2,35 mm. The 10F needs less power to make a little more bass (3 dB difference below impedance peak). It's also 1 to 1.5 dB more sensitive overall.
But it isn't a clear winner in a comparison. It doesn't seem to beat the TC9 on all fronts. If the 10F 8424G00 version had a vented spider it would beat the TC9 in every way possible.
The materials are different. The alu basket vs plastic. Glass Fiber vs treated paper. But both sport copper clad aluminium voice coil wires. The fact that the 10F has it on a glass fiber former might be a hair better than the alu former of the TC9? (through using a non conductive former)
Neodymium magnet vs Ceramic (Ferrite).
Set aside price and efforts needed to get them to fit. Pure on material properties, possible listening tests or a pure paper compare. Which of these two would you pick for the "state of the art" (as far as these array compromises make that part possible
) frequency shaded array.I've gone all out several years ago with the construction of my arrays. I would have no problem to invest the time and money to do the same on the drivers front. But I find myself not being able to decide. Maybe it's the fear that it wouldn't match or beat what I have right now if I were to go for the 10F. It still is a big leap of faith.
I've seen all the: 'it's a lot of money' or 'it's a lot of work' posts, I'd like to see the other side, letting go of those two conditions. Which one inspires the most confidence of being a solid performer. Does the higher Bl or the better behaved FR and possibly lower distortion (just a hair) give the 10F 8414G10 the advantage? Would it for instance be a more detailed sounding driver?
I can make the TC9 sound natural, even 'analog like' with all my digital means, subjectively speaking. I've had 3 days of listening to these with both arrays functional. I can hear differences compared to the non shaded arrays. Even before final EQ I have come to a few preliminary conclusions.
- The effect of the room has diminished further, meaning the sound is less influenced by floor/ceiling bounces. Less energy is sprayed to the ceiling and it is noticeable. It used to image higher than it does now. I always felt like the sound was coming from an elevated level with unshaded arrays. That effect is way less pronounced.
- The sounds are more sharp/defined. Less fuzzy if you will. I guess the more focused high frequencies are responsible for that. Not a huge difference but noticeable in details. Sounds like a sharper leading edge, by lack of better means to describe it. I can play with perception of it by use of the ambience channels. One thing is clear: I would not want to be without the ambience!
Do I like it? I still have lots of work to do, remeasuring and adjusting everything, but I am amazed how good it sounds without much effort! It isn't where I want it and I'm a bit reluctant to put in the work to get it there. Knowing a driver could fail on me at any moment makes it less fun to commit. But what I hear is worth more time to work on! It's more than promising. Goose bumps have been a big part of the listening.
I've learned the difference between good and great can be some small tweaks, so I really should try and get it there, if no driver fails on me...
The length of this post clearly shows my troubled mind... what to do (without thinking of money and work involved
)
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After all.... maybe checking and assuring that the currently produced TC9 are well manufactured and go for a complete change out of all drivers is the best option. My reasoning is that you deploy such a great amount of EQ that driver FR isn't a strong player in this and a little more or less HD isn't going to be the big game changer. The work of reshaping the 10f/'s aren't a little feat and one cant be sure that one don't effect the performance in the process - I would avoid it really. Time for new tires but replace with same make and model a pit stop ;-D
//
a pit stop ;-D//
Here's my take.
A $2 driver will probably sound crappy.
Put 25x $2 drivers with help from DSP, and they will sound so much better.
I did the test myself... granted it was only 9 drivers vs 1. The difference was huge.
But.... would 25x 10F be so much better than 25x TC9? That's where I doubt it.
The TC9 is already so much behaved for the price, I'm pretty sure the gains going to the 10F would be minimal, or barely audible.
If I were building something like X's MLTL plus single wide range driver, I'd surely go for the 10F, or B80.
But with 25x with your shading and DSP, I'm not sure the 10F would bring so much more than the TC9.
A $2 driver will probably sound crappy.
Put 25x $2 drivers with help from DSP, and they will sound so much better.
I did the test myself... granted it was only 9 drivers vs 1. The difference was huge.
But.... would 25x 10F be so much better than 25x TC9? That's where I doubt it.
The TC9 is already so much behaved for the price, I'm pretty sure the gains going to the 10F would be minimal, or barely audible.
If I were building something like X's MLTL plus single wide range driver, I'd surely go for the 10F, or B80.
But with 25x with your shading and DSP, I'm not sure the 10F would bring so much more than the TC9.
The pricing was only for the $2 driver as an example.
It was a crappy driver by itself, but adding 9 of them together and combining them with EQ, they became enjoyable.
My point was, when you add 25 drivers per line, will the 4.3 Bl be such a factor vs the 2.9? Or will it be lost because it is all spread out between the 25?
Sorry, I don't have the answer as I have never heard a TC9 line vs a 10F line.
It was a crappy driver by itself, but adding 9 of them together and combining them with EQ, they became enjoyable.
My point was, when you add 25 drivers per line, will the 4.3 Bl be such a factor vs the 2.9? Or will it be lost because it is all spread out between the 25?
Sorry, I don't have the answer as I have never heard a TC9 line vs a 10F line.
BL is just a means to the end. Judge the end, not how they got there - FR smoothness, distortion measurement, impedance curve...
Or take your own advice. Listen to both in single driver test box. What you get when you stack 25 of them in a line array is more of what you hear there, less effected by floor and ceiling.
Or take your own advice. Listen to both in single driver test box. What you get when you stack 25 of them in a line array is more of what you hear there, less effected by floor and ceiling.