I guess temperature will have it's effect. Not that much of a problem over here in a living room where the temperature gets adjusted to ~ 20 degree over much of the year. We only have a few weeks in the summer where it is hot. As that doesn't happen all that often we'd be outside way more than usual.
I've noticed changes in sound in my car though, that environment has way more temperature changes throughout the year. My 1982 car does not have air-conditioning.
Well that's sorted out. Anyone with info on the effect of ambient temperature on Hi-Fi audio reproduction please post them here, I am interested,
If you are building from scratch, you may have an opportunity to optimize the room during construction, which will help enormously.
Thanks. I don't see any references in the literature though, which is puzzling.
Foreign speaker manufacturers who live in tropical climates may have done some research.
Simple visuals on how it sounds
The colored graphs do not mean much to my untrained eye. I feel that a simple diagram would help newcomers visualize how your speakers or any speakers sound.
In the image shown, how would you mark the area where you can hear real stereo? Where do the instruments appear to be located? What is the frequency response at each point?
Not sure of REW can generate such a diagram.
(I apologize for the basic diagram)
The colored graphs do not mean much to my untrained eye. I feel that a simple diagram would help newcomers visualize how your speakers or any speakers sound.
In the image shown, how would you mark the area where you can hear real stereo? Where do the instruments appear to be located? What is the frequency response at each point?
Not sure of REW can generate such a diagram.
(I apologize for the basic diagram)
Attachments
Last edited:
BasicHIFI1,
don't take this the wrong way, but I think you are trying to tackle very difficult concepts that are not easily translated into basic diagrams. There's a lot of math and science involved in the reproduction of sound. Plus, each song is recorded in a different way, so trying to apply general rules will be impossible.
It's also a question of feelings. Some people like the sounds of single fullrangers, some like line arrays. Some will swear by having monster horns or 4-way speakers with huge drivers.
Each have advantages and downsides.
We can talk about this forever and not see / hear the same things.
My advice:
Build something. Listen.
Get creative, explore.
We can split hairs forever, but in the end, it's about the music, it's about feeling.
That will never come out from an audio forum discussion. It will come out by listening to different setups, and finding what YOU like and enjoy.
don't take this the wrong way, but I think you are trying to tackle very difficult concepts that are not easily translated into basic diagrams. There's a lot of math and science involved in the reproduction of sound. Plus, each song is recorded in a different way, so trying to apply general rules will be impossible.
It's also a question of feelings. Some people like the sounds of single fullrangers, some like line arrays. Some will swear by having monster horns or 4-way speakers with huge drivers.
Each have advantages and downsides.
We can talk about this forever and not see / hear the same things.
My advice:
Build something. Listen.
Get creative, explore.
We can split hairs forever, but in the end, it's about the music, it's about feeling.
That will never come out from an audio forum discussion. It will come out by listening to different setups, and finding what YOU like and enjoy.
Perceval is right,
It would be impossible to draw up a diagram of placement in songs as each song images different anyway. Re-read what has been said about the imaging already. In quite a few songs I get wider placement than the actual arrays and even up to one meter in front of them. This isn't just array behavior. It's the lack of early reflections (all of them). Arrays solve 2 mayor reflection points for you if they are tall enough. The floor and ceiling ones. That colored graph I showed gives you a hint at what my remaining reflections look like, get it like that and imaging excels. It is the result of a lot of thinking and planning the room to be able to maximize that. I didn't want to turn the living room into a studio environment. I cannot give you any guarantees.
So far though, if we count I have seen the following full range line array builds with pleased owners (as fas as I recall them, might have missed a few):
OPC - http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/193015-stupid-cheap-line-array-4.html#post2648779
koldby - http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/193015-stupid-cheap-line-array-19.html#post2877219
koldby with second set - http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/193015-stupid-cheap-line-array-22.html#post2902178 Listening impressions: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/203356-cloning-ids-25s-4.html#post3232322
njoak - http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/203356-cloning-ids-25s-22.html#post3923236
Halair - http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/253367-halair-column-my-line-array-build-20-fr-drivers.html
ArtsyAllen - http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/242171-making-two-towers-25-driver-full-range-line-array-92.html#post4269438 new plans: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/274020-all-aspiring-full-range-array-project.html
marin.weigel - http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/242171-making-two-towers-25-driver-full-range-line-array-110.html#post4311118
rockk19 - http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/242171-making-two-towers-25-driver-full-range-line-array-128.html#post4397421
perceval - http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/251669-short-line-array-line-source-build.html (walking around with new plans and ideas)
ra7 - http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/284371-corner-floor-ceiling-line-array-using-vifa-tc9.html
And one or two displeased or less satisfied with their array attempts:
mayhem13 - http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/242171-making-two-towers-25-driver-full-range-line-array-161.html#post4561141
KLBIrd - http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/242171-making-two-towers-25-driver-full-range-line-array-55.html#post4118937
Find out what they have in common, that might help. Look up their listening impressions and compare with mine. Yes, there are differences in processing and builds and even room treatment. But most of us share a lot of common ground in our impressions.
I might be called the nutcase that never stops... I wanted to see how far I could take this. To get true time coherency and succeeded. The smiles per minute counter is continually working overtime. I already consider my array project a success. But it's also a study object for me. So much to learn about audio perception...
It would be impossible to draw up a diagram of placement in songs as each song images different anyway. Re-read what has been said about the imaging already. In quite a few songs I get wider placement than the actual arrays and even up to one meter in front of them. This isn't just array behavior. It's the lack of early reflections (all of them). Arrays solve 2 mayor reflection points for you if they are tall enough. The floor and ceiling ones. That colored graph I showed gives you a hint at what my remaining reflections look like, get it like that and imaging excels. It is the result of a lot of thinking and planning the room to be able to maximize that. I didn't want to turn the living room into a studio environment. I cannot give you any guarantees.
So far though, if we count I have seen the following full range line array builds with pleased owners (as fas as I recall them, might have missed a few):
OPC - http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/193015-stupid-cheap-line-array-4.html#post2648779
koldby - http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/193015-stupid-cheap-line-array-19.html#post2877219
koldby with second set - http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/193015-stupid-cheap-line-array-22.html#post2902178 Listening impressions: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/203356-cloning-ids-25s-4.html#post3232322
njoak - http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/203356-cloning-ids-25s-22.html#post3923236
Halair - http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/253367-halair-column-my-line-array-build-20-fr-drivers.html
ArtsyAllen - http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/242171-making-two-towers-25-driver-full-range-line-array-92.html#post4269438 new plans: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/274020-all-aspiring-full-range-array-project.html
marin.weigel - http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/242171-making-two-towers-25-driver-full-range-line-array-110.html#post4311118
rockk19 - http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/242171-making-two-towers-25-driver-full-range-line-array-128.html#post4397421
perceval - http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/251669-short-line-array-line-source-build.html (walking around with new plans and ideas)
ra7 - http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/284371-corner-floor-ceiling-line-array-using-vifa-tc9.html
And one or two displeased or less satisfied with their array attempts:
mayhem13 - http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/242171-making-two-towers-25-driver-full-range-line-array-161.html#post4561141
KLBIrd - http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/242171-making-two-towers-25-driver-full-range-line-array-55.html#post4118937
Find out what they have in common, that might help. Look up their listening impressions and compare with mine. Yes, there are differences in processing and builds and even room treatment. But most of us share a lot of common ground in our impressions.
I might be called the nutcase that never stops... I wanted to see how far I could take this. To get true time coherency and succeeded. The smiles per minute counter is continually working overtime. I already consider my array project a success. But it's also a study object for me. So much to learn about audio perception...
Last edited:
Wesayso,
The only major change I can see between your line array and what could be different would be to do something like is done in some rare Pro audio line arrays. That would be multiple parallel vertical line arrays that handle different sections of the audio range. What I am suggesting is say someone who built a line array with an array of say 6" speakers to handle the lower register and a parallel array of say multiple 1" drivers to handle higher frequencies. This is done in Pro audio with horn loaded devices such as compression drivers stacked with vertical diffraction horns with lower frequency horns stacked with larger devices in parallel. Whether there would be much improvement is the question, would the top octave be smoother and perhaps go higher than you get with your 3" cone drivers would be the question?
The only major change I can see between your line array and what could be different would be to do something like is done in some rare Pro audio line arrays. That would be multiple parallel vertical line arrays that handle different sections of the audio range. What I am suggesting is say someone who built a line array with an array of say 6" speakers to handle the lower register and a parallel array of say multiple 1" drivers to handle higher frequencies. This is done in Pro audio with horn loaded devices such as compression drivers stacked with vertical diffraction horns with lower frequency horns stacked with larger devices in parallel. Whether there would be much improvement is the question, would the top octave be smoother and perhaps go higher than you get with your 3" cone drivers would be the question?
The reason for me to go full range is the avoidance of crossovers. I guess if you can get a 1" driver line array and craft the midrange trough band pass ports in horn walls on the side of the tweeter array like on the Synergy horns one could get close to the single driver sound.
From the start I wanted to try and get transient behavior and could not come up with a solution for that using arrays with crossovers at that time without making them a lot bigger (wider).
The beauty here is up, down, left and right the sound pretty much stays the same.
The distances from ear to both lines in a 2 way line array would start to differ once you move left to right, so they would sum different too. We've seen examples with woofers on either side of the tweeter array but the center to center distances get big. The comb filtering of such an array would be less but you trade it for a different set of compromises.
If you do it like I described above with band pass ports you can get them closer though. If I were to use tweeters and woofers I'd look at a solution like that. But the comb filtering problem is mainly showing above 10 kHz in an array like ours due to driver size. It hasn't presented itself as a problem to me.
I've said before, I might at one point look into super tweeters above (10 KHz and above) and subs below (60 Hz and down) but no hurry for me. I'm not feeling I miss out. On the contrary.
I'm still floored by what these crazy little drivers can do together on a very small footprint. You've got to experience it to believe it.
From the start I wanted to try and get transient behavior and could not come up with a solution for that using arrays with crossovers at that time without making them a lot bigger (wider).
The beauty here is up, down, left and right the sound pretty much stays the same.
The distances from ear to both lines in a 2 way line array would start to differ once you move left to right, so they would sum different too. We've seen examples with woofers on either side of the tweeter array but the center to center distances get big. The comb filtering of such an array would be less but you trade it for a different set of compromises.
If you do it like I described above with band pass ports you can get them closer though. If I were to use tweeters and woofers I'd look at a solution like that. But the comb filtering problem is mainly showing above 10 kHz in an array like ours due to driver size. It hasn't presented itself as a problem to me.
I've said before, I might at one point look into super tweeters above (10 KHz and above) and subs below (60 Hz and down) but no hurry for me. I'm not feeling I miss out. On the contrary.
I'm still floored by what these crazy little drivers can do together on a very small footprint. You've got to experience it to believe it.
Wesayso,
With your grasp of the software used in dsp processing I think you wouldn't have much problem getting the impulse response right with a two way system. I do at the same time follow your preference to keep it simple with a single device type and no crossover. I was only saying that there are other ways to do a line array than the single device driver type you have created. I'm not knocking your system in the least, just throwing out another idea for someone who wants to take a different approach. I know everyone talks about the synergy idea as if it has such a perfect solution but I can tell you that is not truly the case once you start looking critically at some other things that are happening. If you are only worried about having a single point source then fine, but for other reasons I just could never go there.
With your grasp of the software used in dsp processing I think you wouldn't have much problem getting the impulse response right with a two way system. I do at the same time follow your preference to keep it simple with a single device type and no crossover. I was only saying that there are other ways to do a line array than the single device driver type you have created. I'm not knocking your system in the least, just throwing out another idea for someone who wants to take a different approach. I know everyone talks about the synergy idea as if it has such a perfect solution but I can tell you that is not truly the case once you start looking critically at some other things that are happening. If you are only worried about having a single point source then fine, but for other reasons I just could never go there.
I decided to try the First One...
Got the parts for First One v1.4 on the way. I will let You know how they sound on my "Cheap and Cheerful" arrays.
Thanks for including me on the above list.
Got the parts for First One v1.4 on the way. I will let You know how they sound on my "Cheap and Cheerful" arrays.
Thanks for including me on the above list.
Odds for liking an array are pretty good
BasicHIFI1, you have a 10 out of 12 chance You will like arrays. koldby is listed twice, but I will throw in fjhuerta at the parts express forum, who built an array with the Fountex FE-83. I have not been following that thread lately, but I can say he got more out of those speakers then he expected.
Yet Another IDS-25 Clone! 25 Fountek FE-83 drivers in a line array
I love seeing people new to arrays get bogged down by the theoretical negatives with arrays, which, okay they are there. But the odd thing about it, is they really do not seem to bother me at all! Maybe I am listening to what they do so well, that I can not hear their shortcomings...
Arrays are a little more involved then other speaker builds, but I believe the extra effort is worth the gains. 10 out of 12 chance You will like them. If not, 10 out of 12 chance, You could sell them to someone else who will like them...
Also, if You do visit my thread, do not take my current inactivity as a loss of interest. This project is alive and well (note the amp project above). I, like Wesayso, have been focusing on what I want to do with my career. I currently have two jobs and run a side handyman business. I do alright financially, but it is getting tiring and taking a toll on my health. My main job is a mid-night shift job, so I am not getting proper sleep and it is starting to affect my mental focus. I have had a couple of close calls doing basic home maintenance, so I dare not do any shop work until I am "awake" when I am awake and "asleep" when I am asleep. (It is very counter productive fighting our body's chemistry to sleep at night and be alert in the daytime). The good news, is I will be transferring to an early evening shift job in about three weeks. It is slightly less pay, but at least I can sleep right again. I will still need to work the other two gigs, but I am hoping with proper sleep, I can get back on track. I would really like one job that does it all, but I am at least moving forward..
Allen
BasicHIFI1, you have a 10 out of 12 chance You will like arrays.
koldby is listed twice, but I will throw in fjhuerta at the parts express forum, who built an array with the Fountex FE-83. I have not been following that thread lately, but I can say he got more out of those speakers then he expected. Yet Another IDS-25 Clone! 25 Fountek FE-83 drivers in a line array
I love seeing people new to arrays get bogged down by the theoretical negatives with arrays, which, okay they are there. But the odd thing about it, is they really do not seem to bother me at all! Maybe I am listening to what they do so well, that I can not hear their shortcomings...
Arrays are a little more involved then other speaker builds, but I believe the extra effort is worth the gains. 10 out of 12 chance You will like them. If not, 10 out of 12 chance, You could sell them to someone else who will like them...
Also, if You do visit my thread, do not take my current inactivity as a loss of interest. This project is alive and well (note the amp project above). I, like Wesayso, have been focusing on what I want to do with my career. I currently have two jobs and run a side handyman business. I do alright financially, but it is getting tiring and taking a toll on my health. My main job is a mid-night shift job, so I am not getting proper sleep and it is starting to affect my mental focus. I have had a couple of close calls doing basic home maintenance, so I dare not do any shop work until I am "awake" when I am awake and "asleep" when I am asleep. (It is very counter productive fighting our body's chemistry to sleep at night and be alert in the daytime). The good news, is I will be transferring to an early evening shift job in about three weeks. It is slightly less pay, but at least I can sleep right again. I will still need to work the other two gigs, but I am hoping with proper sleep, I can get back on track. I would really like one job that does it all, but I am at least moving forward..
Allen
Last edited:
Multi-way DSP
If You are not in a super hurry, I will be adventuring in completing a multi-way build for my brother soon. I too, am curious to know what DSP processing can do to improve a multi-way system. This particular system will be using analog active cross-overs also, so it is going to be interesting to see how the DSP will counter the phasing of these devices. I will get to experience the best of both worlds, because I will be using digital cross-overs to figure out the analog ones. My brother is using an AVR for his source, so I need to make this system "plug and play" for his purposes. The good news, is his system does have room correction, which I am hoping will correct the phasing. We will see... I just hope You will still be interested in this when I get around to it.
Currently, I do use sub-woofers with my Cheap and Cheerful arrays, and in my particular case, my arrays "open up" more with the low bass removed. But my arrays get very little re-enforcement from the walls, and my current amps only put out 40 watts RMS/channel. This might change with the new amp, rated at 150 watts/channel. Yet, I can say, with DSP, I was able to attain the best ever integration with a sub then I have experienced with any other system I have owned. the main weakness I feel now with my system is the highs. But I am really not happy with the highs on any of my speaker systems. So I am trying to narrow that down. Might be the amps or the DAC. Once I get rolling with this stuff again, I hope to start validating my discoveries better with the measurements like Wesayso has done...
You can read more about my system on my "All Aspiring Full Range Array" Thread. I recently did a speaker comparison between three different systems. I would like to redo the comparison with a more coherent mind, And the new amp.
Allen
If You are not in a super hurry, I will be adventuring in completing a multi-way build for my brother soon. I too, am curious to know what DSP processing can do to improve a multi-way system. This particular system will be using analog active cross-overs also, so it is going to be interesting to see how the DSP will counter the phasing of these devices. I will get to experience the best of both worlds, because I will be using digital cross-overs to figure out the analog ones. My brother is using an AVR for his source, so I need to make this system "plug and play" for his purposes. The good news, is his system does have room correction, which I am hoping will correct the phasing. We will see... I just hope You will still be interested in this when I get around to it.
Currently, I do use sub-woofers with my Cheap and Cheerful arrays, and in my particular case, my arrays "open up" more with the low bass removed. But my arrays get very little re-enforcement from the walls, and my current amps only put out 40 watts RMS/channel. This might change with the new amp, rated at 150 watts/channel. Yet, I can say, with DSP, I was able to attain the best ever integration with a sub then I have experienced with any other system I have owned. the main weakness I feel now with my system is the highs. But I am really not happy with the highs on any of my speaker systems. So I am trying to narrow that down. Might be the amps or the DAC. Once I get rolling with this stuff again, I hope to start validating my discoveries better with the measurements like Wesayso has done...
You can read more about my system on my "All Aspiring Full Range Array" Thread. I recently did a speaker comparison between three different systems. I would like to redo the comparison with a more coherent mind, And the new amp.
Allen
Last edited:
ArtsyAllen,
I would love to see what you come up with. I am open to learning from anyone, no ego trip on my side. One comment I will say is that to expect any single device to cover the entire audio bandwidth is just asking a bit more than i think can be done. Something has to give, you can get the bottom and then not the very top or vice versa. There just aren't any devices that I am aware of that can do it all in one unit.
I'm sure Wesayso has an excellent system that meets his needs but to ask any 3" driver to hit 20Khz and have any real dispersion is asking to much. All cones have some breakup mode, nobody has a perfect solution for that.
I will say when I built multi-way horn systems the best high end was from a TAD ET703 driver. Only problem is that today a single pair which is good from about 10Khz on up to way higher than we can here is about $5,000 per pair, a lot more than the $450 a pair I could buy them for years ago before TAD got stupid with their pricing. It was the first time I could seriously identify some extremely high frequency sounds, nothing like the Tizz of a normal dome tweeter or the fatiguing high end of most compression drivers pushed that high. Let's see 25 of those in a line array per side would cost what! I'm not Bill Gates so not going to happen. I wish I had never sold those enclosures, they were the best thing I have ever built or heard. Just the top two driver pairs would be $10,000 dollars today. They were a a five way system with both the TAD 2001 and TAD ET703 driver and another cone driven mid horn and two bass drivers in two separated internal enclosures. FR was 20 -24Khz. They were really nice looking also with piano black faces and Mahogany wood finish. Trapezoidal, a real engineering problem to build those enclosures. The second bass driver is down firing, ports on the back, tuned to two different frequencies.
I would love to see what you come up with. I am open to learning from anyone, no ego trip on my side. One comment I will say is that to expect any single device to cover the entire audio bandwidth is just asking a bit more than i think can be done. Something has to give, you can get the bottom and then not the very top or vice versa. There just aren't any devices that I am aware of that can do it all in one unit.
I'm sure Wesayso has an excellent system that meets his needs but to ask any 3" driver to hit 20Khz and have any real dispersion is asking to much. All cones have some breakup mode, nobody has a perfect solution for that.
I will say when I built multi-way horn systems the best high end was from a TAD ET703 driver. Only problem is that today a single pair which is good from about 10Khz on up to way higher than we can here is about $5,000 per pair, a lot more than the $450 a pair I could buy them for years ago before TAD got stupid with their pricing. It was the first time I could seriously identify some extremely high frequency sounds, nothing like the Tizz of a normal dome tweeter or the fatiguing high end of most compression drivers pushed that high. Let's see 25 of those in a line array per side would cost what! I'm not Bill Gates so not going to happen. I wish I had never sold those enclosures, they were the best thing I have ever built or heard. Just the top two driver pairs would be $10,000 dollars today. They were a a five way system with both the TAD 2001 and TAD ET703 driver and another cone driven mid horn and two bass drivers in two separated internal enclosures. FR was 20 -24Khz. They were really nice looking also with piano black faces and Mahogany wood finish. Trapezoidal, a real engineering problem to build those enclosures. The second bass driver is down firing, ports on the back, tuned to two different frequencies.
Attachments
Kindhornman,
I'm sorry, but in all your posts, you are referring to a line array like a single point source. To ask any 3" driver to cover the whole frequency spectrum alone, with all the power concentrated into a single unit, is indeed asking a bit much.
But... line arrays drivers get a tiny fraction of that power, each. That's where you can lower distortion quite a bit since the driver doesn't work all that hard by itself.
If I had to choose between a single 12" driver or 25 times 3" drivers for about the same Sd, regarding distortion, I'd pick 25x 3" drivers anytime!
Line arrays are indeed used in Pro audio, for their dispersion, power handling, sound shaping and... lower distortion.
Perceval,
But even in a line array at very high frequencies you would have to look at the individual devices radiation pattern. at 10Khz the center to center distance is to large for the devices to combine, so even at low output you have to look at an individual device. I'm not talking about spl, I'm only talking about producing a clean 10-20Khz output with a matching dispersion to the rest of the bandwidth.
But even in a line array at very high frequencies you would have to look at the individual devices radiation pattern. at 10Khz the center to center distance is to large for the devices to combine, so even at low output you have to look at an individual device. I'm not talking about spl, I'm only talking about producing a clean 10-20Khz output with a matching dispersion to the rest of the bandwidth.
Kindhornman,
You'll never hear me say: these line arrays have the best top end ever. Nor: These line arrays have the best bottom end. The midrange? Well they do excel there. But the key part is the coherency in sound from bottom to top.
There's output in the high end from left to right all through the listening area up till ~17 KHz. Yes, there is comb filtering there, not arguing with that. A single tweeter would be able to do better than 25x 3.5" cones (a good one). But it's not often you hear this clear and coherent sound with clean CSD, low distortion and all the power and dynamics you'd ever need in the home environment. The key is that a single driver has to do next to nothing to achieve that. It brings a very convincing type of sound that lures you into the music. Room filling and still pin point in location of all the separate sources. It doesn't fall apart on the more complex and busy musical pieces.
Like I said, we all pick our compromises, this one suits me very well. The more people that try seem to agree here.
I can't just stick in a tweeter to better the performance above 10 KHz. I'm still thinking about how one could do that with the least amount of compromises. Right now I think a tweeter on top of the array, wave guided and firing towards the listening spot might be worth a shot. That is if I look at varying distances and line array behavior vs point source.
For my enjoyment it isn't needed, I have a blast with these as is. Only out of sheer curiosity I'd try it. But it would have to be quite a good tweeter to be as clean as the rest of the sound. I certainly don't want to add the "Tizzz" I've heard so often.
You'll never hear me say: these line arrays have the best top end ever. Nor: These line arrays have the best bottom end. The midrange? Well they do excel there. But the key part is the coherency in sound from bottom to top.
There's output in the high end from left to right all through the listening area up till ~17 KHz. Yes, there is comb filtering there, not arguing with that. A single tweeter would be able to do better than 25x 3.5" cones (a good one). But it's not often you hear this clear and coherent sound with clean CSD, low distortion and all the power and dynamics you'd ever need in the home environment. The key is that a single driver has to do next to nothing to achieve that. It brings a very convincing type of sound that lures you into the music. Room filling and still pin point in location of all the separate sources. It doesn't fall apart on the more complex and busy musical pieces.
Like I said, we all pick our compromises, this one suits me very well. The more people that try seem to agree here.
I can't just stick in a tweeter to better the performance above 10 KHz. I'm still thinking about how one could do that with the least amount of compromises. Right now I think a tweeter on top of the array, wave guided and firing towards the listening spot might be worth a shot. That is if I look at varying distances and line array behavior vs point source.
For my enjoyment it isn't needed, I have a blast with these as is. Only out of sheer curiosity I'd try it. But it would have to be quite a good tweeter to be as clean as the rest of the sound. I certainly don't want to add the "Tizzz" I've heard so often.
Awesome build Kindhornman!
I really hope You made a lot of money selling those! The bottoms look like stone, are they? You have set the bar pretty high on yourself to design something greater, yet I do believe it is possible.
Speaking of "possibilities"...
Interesting You bring up High frequency dispersion. For my next array build, I am looking into BMR drivers as a possible candidate. BMR drivers propagate sound a little differently then dynamic drivers. In theory, they have better dispersion at higher frequencies at the expense of a perfect linear frequency response. Some claim we can correct the nonlinear response with DSP EQ. We will see. As of today, Tectonic and CSS are the only lines of drivers available to DIYers. I do not know how good their quality is, but I am curious to explore the technology, hence including them in my driver comparisons.
The Tectonic 3" model shows some potential. (nasty bezel design thou)
Tectonic Elements TEBM46C20N-4B BMR 3" Full Range Speaker 4 Ohm
Here is a nice illustration of how they work (in theory):
https://www.cambridgeaudio.com/blog/what-is-bmr
Enough hijacking from me, back to the "Two Towers"
I really hope You made a lot of money selling those! The bottoms look like stone, are they? You have set the bar pretty high on yourself to design something greater, yet I do believe it is possible.
Speaking of "possibilities"...
Interesting You bring up High frequency dispersion. For my next array build, I am looking into BMR drivers as a possible candidate. BMR drivers propagate sound a little differently then dynamic drivers. In theory, they have better dispersion at higher frequencies at the expense of a perfect linear frequency response. Some claim we can correct the nonlinear response with DSP EQ. We will see. As of today, Tectonic and CSS are the only lines of drivers available to DIYers. I do not know how good their quality is, but I am curious to explore the technology, hence including them in my driver comparisons.
The Tectonic 3" model shows some potential. (nasty bezel design thou
)Tectonic Elements TEBM46C20N-4B BMR 3" Full Range Speaker 4 Ohm
Here is a nice illustration of how they work (in theory):
https://www.cambridgeaudio.com/blog/what-is-bmr
Enough hijacking from me, back to the "Two Towers"
Did you talk to Derek (Overkill) about those plans Allen? If I recall right he wasn't that impressed with the commercial BMR offerings available which led him to develop his own variant on that theme. And as such I did not mention him in the list of arrays I made because of his use of BMR drivers instead of 3 to 3.5" cone drivers.
Kindhornman,
This is a common compliant of those that have not heard the arrays. I made some height/distance measurements of my arrays and comb filtering is only a problem above 10-15 kHz. As you move away from the array, the phase shifts from one unit to the next are so small that the vector sum is a random addition at low frequencies and you only see the peak/null pattern at very high frequencies. Other designs (cone/dome, etc) could improve on this performance. But line arrays have many other benefits (removal of floor/ceiling reflections, power handling, low distortion) that are a fantastic trade-off in my opinion. Besides, how much music is there above 10 kHz? It's mostly just air/breath.