Lemme killing you softly with this one from sweden , 457 EURO for the pair :
https://www.xtzsound.eu/spirit4?aff=2#!/Spirit-4-Matte-White/p/384936066
Btw - the surface is real dureable paint instead of cheap PVC foil which will deteriorate in 10-20years depending on UV exposition and chemicals in the air ....
The tweeter waveguide is massive aluminium and the tweeter has the typical 70mm magnet diameter of most dome tweeters , somewhere I saw a photo of the interieur of the box . Tweeter was screwed from behind against the baffle so replacement should be no problem! Sorry found no further measurements just the graph of the manufacturers website for each model ...
Bigger model is the Spirit 11 for 733 EURO , same drivers larger cab :
https://www.xtzsound.eu/spirit11#!/Spirit-11-Matte-White/p/384936062
By changing the filter network of the speaker you can tune the sound to your taste!
It's up to you!
ps ..
https://www.xtzsound.eu/spirit4?aff=2#!/Spirit-4-Matte-White/p/384936066
Btw - the surface is real dureable paint instead of cheap PVC foil which will deteriorate in 10-20years depending on UV exposition and chemicals in the air ....
The tweeter waveguide is massive aluminium and the tweeter has the typical 70mm magnet diameter of most dome tweeters , somewhere I saw a photo of the interieur of the box . Tweeter was screwed from behind against the baffle so replacement should be no problem! Sorry found no further measurements just the graph of the manufacturers website for each model ...
Bigger model is the Spirit 11 for 733 EURO , same drivers larger cab :
https://www.xtzsound.eu/spirit11#!/Spirit-11-Matte-White/p/384936062
By changing the filter network of the speaker you can tune the sound to your taste!
It's up to you!
ps ..
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I wouldnt consider any of back-loading horns or similar designs as flawless. Colorations in upper-bass and low-midrange are unavoidable. Not to mention size and placement issues.
Yes, Frugel is very popular, but I believe winning formula is its simplified form, so its easier to build, and a fact that its mostly used with drivers that actually dont need a horn to make deacent bass.
Perhaps I may have misunderstood your point. Although quirky and popular with some kinds of DIYers a frugal horn speaker isn't a high fidelity speaker (assuming that is what is meant by flawless speaker) given it's notably flawed SPL output, frequency extension, frequency linearity, directivity, etc... Now, for example, something like the Statements are around the given price, have adequate SPL, reasonable frequency linearity and extension but their quirk in spraying the rear radiation from the midrange drivers over the front wall results in an unconventional directivity. Many DIY speaker designs that look close in terms of cost and adequately sized drivers to cleanly deliver low frequency transients have some quirkiness like this because, I suspect, it seen as an interesting/positive feature for those with an interest in DIY as a hobby.
Neither would I, nor, I know, Dave, since there's no such thing as a flawless speaker of any kind and I doubt anybody would suggest otherwise.
That isn't an automatic truth. It depends on the design, in the same way as any other type of enclosure. A good horn by definition is the largest of any viable load for a given Fc however. Whether other loads are necessarily viable & visa versa is another question of course.
In some cases they aren't, or a horn is not a good option for the requirements. But that's engineering reality -we ideally go with the option that most closely suits a given set of requirements. Possibly -that was one of my intentions from the outset when I designed it.
That's a bit of an oversimplification. With my designer's hat on, FH3 (since it was the first of that range I designed) was meant to be a compact boundary-loaded design that is easy to build and offered reasonable performance in a compact (for a horn) package. Most of the drivers used don't necessarily 'need' a bass horn of any description in order to be tuned low. In point of fact, I deliberately tuned FH3 higher than usual for a lot of compact horns around at the time to reduce the compromises usually involved with LF gain and harmonics in such designs. But there's more to life than simply extension, since the horn loads quite efficiently over a wider, though (for a horn of its size) well-controlled BW, increasing available dynamic headroom, notably through the main 'power band' for a lot of contemporary and acoustic material, where something like, say, an MLTL (which I've designed plenty of for the same drivers, so I have no bias one way or the other) would start to run into compression. Certainly not 'flawless', and I've never suggested it is, but it's certainly a viable alternative to other loads depending on circumstances and preference / requirements.
With your headline I immediately thought about the Genelec Ones ... but passive and <5000,- ... not happening.
You need to define your goal better for a design. Should it be flawless or cheap. Or as good as it get's for the price?
2 strategies - wide dispersion all over the frequency range (e.g. Bliesma T25A, small midrange, maybe even 2,5-3" dome and 8-10" LF)
Or for larger listening distances in normal rooms - narrower and controlled sound. Big wave guide and big midrange driver - just working on a speaker with MW19TX. For flawless you still need a 3rd way, but it can be a subwoofer.
First concept could be passive 3 or 3,5 way "normal" floor standing speaker, 2nd will fit a home cinema naturaly where you anywy have a subwoofer.
So - where should the journey go to?
I think you first need to define what is flawless design for you. Because it's not the same for everybody. On ASR they tried to design such a thing (clear, neutral and controlled directivity) but the discussion is still ongoing and there is a lot of debate on what to get: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...sr-open-source-platform-speaker-project.20407
And for me their (in dev) design lacks bass response, so i would probally also add a woofer. Others don't think that is the case and think it's already perfect...
And for me their (in dev) design lacks bass response, so i would probally also add a woofer. Others don't think that is the case and think it's already perfect...
TY.
For me, given the level of room interaction, a "point source" and/or omnidirectional radiator is just another type of colouration.
The 'beam' of a constant directivity horn can also sound unnatural to me, especially if it's unnaturally loud. I 'get' the low HD part, but the line-of sight direct connection to my ears is like it's own special effect that colours everything passing through it. And if something is too demanding of my attention, then I refuse to give it.
On the other hand, I'm learning that I do like horns where the polar pattern has smooth variation, and without such a bright echo.
Loudspeakers are electro-acoustic transducers, tasked with the hardest part of the music reproduction chain. In comparison, ALL modern DACs, preamps, power amps, electronic crossovers, etc are all pretty much perfect. But not loudspeakers.
You will not find flawless ones at any price, and DEFINITELY NOT at less than $5000.
Maybe for $50,000... something might approach it. Not sure though.
You will not find flawless ones at any price, and DEFINITELY NOT at less than $5000.
Maybe for $50,000... something might approach it. Not sure though.
Flawless? Not even gonna come close to being able to produce the SPLs I want occasionally anything like clean, nor decent bass.
That is exactly the point i want to make. What do you define as flawless... My definition may differ from yours and both may differ from someone else's definition.
And if you want it loud, neutral and low distortion over the whole passband, you'll probally need compression drivers and big woofers, and dsp with room correction to get there. And that is not cheap.
As with almost any FR single driver loudspeakers, ultimate loudness might not reach sufficiently over damage levels for some people, but the rest depends on the drivers used and some do a respectable job of 9 and a half octaves, flat response, and decent HF dispersion.
dave
These seem really nice at first glance but the off-axis measurements in the Hifi-Musik review seem a bit subpar... too bad
A respectable job isn't high fidelity. What is required for high fidelity isn't particularly difficult to define with the exception of directivity which is both room and source dependent. Even then what is good and poor directivity and what is better for a particular type of room and/or source is to a fair extent known. The speakers need to be large enough to be clean at standard listening levels (some may want clean at higher levels but standard levels is reasonable and defendable whereas lower probably isn't), have enough ways for driver resonances to be inaudible, have reasonable motors with inaudible nonlinear distortion at standard levels (when adequately sized drivers are well within their clean operating range), flexible crossover (e.g. DSP) so that linear distortion (on-axis) is inaudible, and perhaps one or two other things. It is all quite doable for reasonable cost though with recent price rises it likely can no longer be had for $1000 a pair particularly here in the UK.
If one opts for sufficient size, number of ways, adequate driver quality, crossover flexibility to achieve high fidelity where linear and nonlinear distortion becomes unimportant in normal use then the significant and unavoidable compromises will revolve around the directivity. What introduces more and significant compromises in speaker design is opting for inadequate size, number of ways, driver quality, crossover flexibility,... to achieve high fidelity. There are perfectly reasonable reasons to do this related to minimising cost, size, etc... but most of these compromises are avoidable.
IME there is no such thing as flawless speakers. There is also not much in the way of near-flawless speakers at or under $5k/pair, not even used. Maybe for something old and not up to present standards: https://www.ebay.com/itm/224676688800 Newer ones tend to go for more, and more often than not they are sold for local pickup only (because the owner threw away the shipping crates): https://www.hifishark.com/search?q=soundlab