I did the inside with 3/8" radius and the outside with 1/8" radius. CN recommended inside large radius. Makes sense with the diffraction.
Long time lurker, first time poster.
First thank you folks for the inspiration! You guys create and share and that's truely awesome!
Reading through the multiple "K" threads (they all seem to blur together to me
) I started to think of the posibilities of a unique and efficient bass guitar cab designed and built around the karlson.
I've seen this mentioned before in one of the "k" threads, i don't remember which one...but it was suggested with a 4x10" arangement. While I admit this would be radical, I was thinking more along the lines of a single 10" or 12". Coax would be sweet when going after that hi-fi piano style bass tone. Many cabs in the bass guitar world are duel 10" and duel 12", and a design similar to the dual
TC9FD mini karlsonator could be perfect.
Xrk, if you are looking for a design challenge I'd truely appriciate your help. I'd be looking to build an XKi with high end driver(s) or a coax, and aim for a balance between high spl and low frequency extension. I'm wanting to build it light weight so am looking primarily at neo drivers. The B&C 12CXN76 would seem to work. Qts is .19 but the vas is 4.2 ft3. Is that to high?
The jbl 2262hpl is a 12" neo that looks interesting with a qts of .34 and a vas at 1.74 ft3. A question of freq response was answered in the q&a on the parts express page stating 45 - 3.5k hz which would cut it, as that is about what a regular bass guitar speaker (fullrange) runs at.
This cab would be used for practice, small venues, and large venues where massive pa support is available (big sanctuary with multiple 18" subs) where the cab would be more of a personal punch me in the kidneys feedback/monitor.
One of the hardest parts of being a bass player in a large room is not getting clean kinetic feedback from your instument, while recieving it from the more "important" instuments deemed so from the sound guy. The 18's can be a bit sloppy and muddy from where i stand.
Tl;dr anybody willing to give a newbro a hand at designing a face melting KXi bass guitar cab?
Thanks
Jeremy
First thank you folks for the inspiration! You guys create and share and that's truely awesome!
Reading through the multiple "K" threads (they all seem to blur together to me
) I started to think of the posibilities of a unique and efficient bass guitar cab designed and built around the karlson.I've seen this mentioned before in one of the "k" threads, i don't remember which one...but it was suggested with a 4x10" arangement. While I admit this would be radical, I was thinking more along the lines of a single 10" or 12". Coax would be sweet when going after that hi-fi piano style bass tone. Many cabs in the bass guitar world are duel 10" and duel 12", and a design similar to the dual
TC9FD mini karlsonator could be perfect.
Xrk, if you are looking for a design challenge I'd truely appriciate your help. I'd be looking to build an XKi with high end driver(s) or a coax, and aim for a balance between high spl and low frequency extension. I'm wanting to build it light weight so am looking primarily at neo drivers. The B&C 12CXN76 would seem to work. Qts is .19 but the vas is 4.2 ft3. Is that to high?
The jbl 2262hpl is a 12" neo that looks interesting with a qts of .34 and a vas at 1.74 ft3. A question of freq response was answered in the q&a on the parts express page stating 45 - 3.5k hz which would cut it, as that is about what a regular bass guitar speaker (fullrange) runs at.
This cab would be used for practice, small venues, and large venues where massive pa support is available (big sanctuary with multiple 18" subs) where the cab would be more of a personal punch me in the kidneys feedback/monitor.
One of the hardest parts of being a bass player in a large room is not getting clean kinetic feedback from your instument, while recieving it from the more "important" instuments deemed so from the sound guy. The 18's can be a bit sloppy and muddy from where i stand.
Tl;dr anybody willing to give a newbro a hand at designing a face melting KXi bass guitar cab?
Thanks
Jeremy
Long time lurker, first time poster.
First thank you folks for the inspiration! You guys create and share and that's truely awesome!
Reading through the multiple "K" threads (they all seem to blur together to me
I've seen this mentioned before in one of the "k" threads, i don't remember which one...but it was suggested with a 4x10" arangement. While I admit this would be radical, I was thinking more along the lines of a single 10" or 12". Coax would be sweet when going after that hi-fi piano style bass tone. Many cabs in the bass guitar world are duel 10" and duel 12", and a design similar to the dual
TC9FD mini karlsonator could be perfect.
Xrk, if you are looking for a design challenge I'd truely appriciate your help. I'd be looking to build an XKi with high end driver(s) or a coax, and aim for a balance between high spl and low frequency extension. I'm wanting to build it light weight so am looking primarily at neo drivers. The B&C 12CXN76 would seem to work. Qts is .19 but the vas is 4.2 ft3. Is that to high?
The jbl 2262hpl is a 12" neo that looks interesting with a qts of .34 and a vas at 1.74 ft3. A question of freq response was answered in the q&a on the parts express page stating 45 - 3.5k hz which would cut it, as that is about what a regular bass guitar speaker (fullrange) runs at.
This cab would be used for practice, small venues, and large venues where massive pa support is available (big sanctuary with multiple 18" subs) where the cab would be more of a personal punch me in the kidneys feedback/monitor.
One of the hardest parts of being a bass player in a large room is not getting clean kinetic feedback from your instument, while recieving it from the more "important" instuments deemed so from the sound guy. The 18's can be a bit sloppy and muddy from where i stand.
Tl;dr anybody willing to give a newbro a hand at designing a face melting KXi bass guitar cab?
Thanks
Jeremy
I can take a look at it - are you good with 60Hz extension or do you need it flat to 40Hz? 40 is hard to do - sub woofer territory of you want high SPL's. Usually chest punch is high SPL that is time aligned with low group delay in the 80Hz to 160Hz range. The K15 can do that well. If you want a little more reach to a solid 60Hz then the XKi can work. The JBL 2262 seems more suited.
Wow! Thanks for the fast reply.
Obviously the lower the better, but I understand compromise is the name of the game. Solid to 60 would work great, and am wondering what the rolloff would look like. I'm guessing in practice setting using <50 watts i could bump the eq for a fuller sound...
What about the Faital pro 10PR300? Qts .27 vas 1.3ft3 and quite the usable freq response according to the factory chart. Any chance that could work x2?
Thank you for your time
Jeremy
- might be fun to have a 4x10" K bass cabinet ? - heavy unless neo-motor - thermal compression should be pretty low w. 2.5" voice coil. My Traynor tube tops are rusting away I dislike the peak in Delta10a but its pretty cheap and cheerful - would 4 in something around K15 bulk "kick"?
here's one of my fave basses - a Kramer metal neck w. double P pups - all passive electronics
I dislike the peak in Delta10a but its pretty cheap and cheerful - would 4 in something around K15 bulk "kick"?here's one of my fave basses - a Kramer metal neck w. double P pups - all passive electronics
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- might be fun to have a 4x10" K bass cabinet ? - heavy unless neo-motor - thermal compression should be pretty low w. 2.5" voice coil. My Traynor tube tops are rusting away
here's one of my fave basses - a Kramer metal neck w. double P pups - all passive electronics
Freddi
4 would definately be fun! But alas any time I'd need that much I've got pa support. I'm kinda looking to build a "jack of all trades" type cabnet that's light weight and sounds good with a fly weight practice amp but can play loud enough to be a good monitor. Awesome kramer! Dont see double p's or aluminum necks much, let alone on the same axe!
I am interested in building a double PA130-8 version of the XKi. Akabak installed surprisingly easily on Ubuntu with Wine and I had a go at modifying xrk971's RS100P-4 script for a pair of PA130-8 drivers. Apologies as I converted everything to metric. I first tried modelling a single PA130-8 driver using xrk971's dimensions, and this seemed to work OK. Although xrk971 did not model a double PA130-8, the dimensions of 8in x 9in x 17.5in were suggested, which is doubling the volume.
Attached is my attempt at modelling this, based on XR971's original XKi script. I am having trouble getting the response as flat as the single PA130-8 by tuning the duct. Any suggestions on how to improve this?
Here is a design I came up with for the JBL 2262HPL: 48 liter box, 14in wide with 2.5in x 19in long vent, make the rear chamber 80% of volume and front chamber 20% of total volume, front triangular K aperture about 12in wide at base x 14in tall with curved profile that has about a 30in rad of curvature.
You should be able to hit 119dB at 43v with a 35Hz BW1 HPF (I used low order to reduce group delay). The f3 is ~50Hz. Sensitivity at 2.83v is 95.3dB. I am trading a few dB sensitivity for some extended bass reach as the driver is ideally designed for 70Hz tuning.
The long vent has a resonance dip at 360Hz and 570Hz though, I would suggest using this as a bass unit below 400Hz and having a real mid driver and tweeter above.
The prediction doesn't account for the direct radiation from the front of the cone so above 300Hz is going to follow mostly natural response of manufacturer's specs except for the dips near 360Hz and 570Hz. I am not quite sure what upper reach you were looking for. If you want extended upper to XO to a CD at 1.2kHz for instance, then vent needs to be shorter and 70Hz or so is really the design limit.
Attachments
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Your design actually looks fine - I would set the BW4 HPF at 52Hz to get max SPL out of this. Given that xmax is 2.5mm, the system is good for 102dB max and f3 of 51Hz. Not bad for a couple of $18 drivers.
Thanks for having a look. Just ordered the drivers. A fair bit cheaper and faster to get them shipped from PE in the US than any of the European suppliers I could find. 5-7 days versus 3 weeks and about 30% cheaper. I tried ordering 6 but the 'import processing fee' took a big jump.
SredniVashtar,
For PA130-8 seems this Swedish shop Dayton Audio PA130-8 offer delivery in couple of days at around €21 (198,- Swedish)
For PA130-8 seems this Swedish shop Dayton Audio PA130-8 offer delivery in couple of days at around €21 (198,- Swedish)
Thanks for the link - too late for this order but might be useful in future. I will email them to ask about delivery to UK. Europe Audio and Audio.nl can get them in but cost a little more and up to 4 weeks delivery as out of stock. 4 drivers from Parts Express came to $98.66 including delivery and import fees - about 65 quid. All the European suppliers I tried were asking over 100 quid and were out of stock to boot.
Thanks Xrk. It seems the 2262HPL isn't really optimal for what I'm after. I think firstly it should be full range-ish and then chase the high output. I think I may need to do some more research before building a cab with such a costley driver.
While reading through this thread again, I noticed in post #12 you mentioned the beta 10cx could go in the same cab that you came up with for the 1772 if the vent was extended to 9". I already have an eminence b102 laying around that has ts params that are very close to the 10cx's bass driver half.
The b102 does have a whizzer, and I recall it stated that a whizzer might not be optimal behind a k. Besides that, would it do ok in that enclosure with the 9" port? How close do the parameters need to be to work?
B102
Fs 48hz
Qts .39
Vas 2.3 ft3
I was thinking to build this for the cabnet making practice, as well as give me time to buy a pc and learn to use some of these magical modeling programs.
By the way, (O.T.) I just finished a set of cornus and I'm all smiles listening to them! One tool I found really useful in working with foam core is a microplane. It's similar to a cheese grater and works on wood and foam and such. I have the "fine" cut flat version, and it removes material faster than sanding and leaves a smother surface as it shaves instead of abraids. If you search on amazon search "microplane tool" to avoid the culinary variety.
Thanks Xrk, I really appreciate your help and your pioneering spirit is quite infectious and inspiring! Keep up the good work
Jeremy
Freddi, that's interesting...
How does one tell whether or not they have the old b102? I bought mine maybe 5 years ago and it actually doesn't say b102 anywhere on the magnet label, which also does not look like the current one. It just says "legend"
And also what is a "Druid" sized pipe? The k tube interests me but I've got to say that I'm still in the skeptical camp basses on pure gut instinct. My brain tells me folks such as you like it so there has got to be something there.
How does one tell whether or not they have the old b102? I bought mine maybe 5 years ago and it actually doesn't say b102 anywhere on the magnet label, which also does not look like the current one. It just says "legend"
And also what is a "Druid" sized pipe? The k tube interests me but I've got to say that I'm still in the skeptical camp basses on pure gut instinct. My brain tells me folks such as you like it so there has got to be something there.
the K-tube as a tweeter is great - believe me, when made the size of Transylvania Power Company's "The Tube", its excellent from ~!K5 upwards. GregB used ~1K2 crossover on his homemade K-tube.
Faerber's system must cost a literal fortune
the lighter magnet model B102 has the same external diameter magnet slug as the early model so bot magnets look about the same. I think the cloth surround is the key. Similar changes were made in Beta10cx as to qts, cloth surround, and cone.
The early 56oz magnet model had a multi-pleated accordion surround, black cone and a lot more high frequency extension.
While the newer higher Qts model had a double roll surround and bluish cone
There is a popular speaker company "Zu" - some years back when I first got the early model B102, I made a copy of their
Druid" from published specifications. Its only about 1.3 cubic feet internal and worked very well with B102 and a copy
of Eminence APT80 - it measured very much like the published test of the early Zu Druid. The pipe is about 50 square inches internal cross - sectional area, and has a full opening at the bottom - - the base or plinth acts as the vent and fine tuning is done by
adjusting the gap. I had many graphs but Imageshack has deleted them. It also will work in a pinch with Visato's BG20.
Oddly, the new Eminence B102 behaves a lot in cabinet desire as the old Pioneer "BOFU" and BG20 - I might mount my newer B102
in a 0.62 scale K15 - I can tell it should be pretty good as kicky satellite to use in conjunction with a summed channel subwoofer.
SoundStage test of the early Zu Druid http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/zucable_druid.htm - I'd sure like to know if Zu's custom
B102 variant retained the larger motor and lower Q of the early model. I've not seen any measurements for later Zu Druids.
This is a Visaton BG20 on an adapter ring
hornresp sans stuffing
Faerber's system must cost a literal fortune
the lighter magnet model B102 has the same external diameter magnet slug as the early model so bot magnets look about the same. I think the cloth surround is the key. Similar changes were made in Beta10cx as to qts, cloth surround, and cone.
The early 56oz magnet model had a multi-pleated accordion surround, black cone and a lot more high frequency extension.
While the newer higher Qts model had a double roll surround and bluish cone
There is a popular speaker company "Zu" - some years back when I first got the early model B102, I made a copy of their
Druid" from published specifications. Its only about 1.3 cubic feet internal and worked very well with B102 and a copy
of Eminence APT80 - it measured very much like the published test of the early Zu Druid. The pipe is about 50 square inches internal cross - sectional area, and has a full opening at the bottom - - the base or plinth acts as the vent and fine tuning is done by
adjusting the gap. I had many graphs but Imageshack has deleted them. It also will work in a pinch with Visato's BG20.
Oddly, the new Eminence B102 behaves a lot in cabinet desire as the old Pioneer "BOFU" and BG20 - I might mount my newer B102
in a 0.62 scale K15 - I can tell it should be pretty good as kicky satellite to use in conjunction with a summed channel subwoofer.
SoundStage test of the early Zu Druid http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/zucable_druid.htm - I'd sure like to know if Zu's custom
B102 variant retained the larger motor and lower Q of the early model. I've not seen any measurements for later Zu Druids.
This is a Visaton BG20 on an adapter ring
hornresp sans stuffing
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the K-tube as a tweeter is great - believe me, when made the size of Transylvania Power Company's "The Tube", its excellent from ~!K5 upwards. GregB used ~1K2 crossover on his homemade K-tube.
here's a guy who thinks its worthwhile - look at his field coil driver http://www.kilimanjaro-series.com/news/
The first speaker K-tube to my knowledge was fifty years ago in Karlson's X15 system which mounted the tube inside the front chamber (sounded very "FAST" !). Some time after Karlson's passing (1-1973), It re-appeared as a PA high frequency waveguide in one and two inch formats. If you have a one inch compression driver, do a proof of concept by making a rolled paper tube about 5.5" long, cut a half ellipse shape slot with scissors, and attach to the compression driver - it only takes a minute or so.
Here's Transylvania's one inch tube - one of mine is missing but still have five
a k-tube can be used with some dome tweeters -
here's a guy who thinks its worthwhile - look at his field coil driver http://www.kilimanjaro-series.com/news/
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
The first speaker K-tube to my knowledge was fifty years ago in Karlson's X15 system which mounted the tube inside the front chamber (sounded very "FAST" !). Some time after Karlson's passing (1-1973), It re-appeared as a PA high frequency waveguide in one and two inch formats. If you have a one inch compression driver, do a proof of concept by making a rolled paper tube about 5.5" long, cut a half ellipse shape slot with scissors, and attach to the compression driver - it only takes a minute or so.
Here's Transylvania's one inch tube - one of mine is missing but still have five
a k-tube can be used with some dome tweeters -
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Yeah, it started as a stock eminence 1K6 crossover, but the acoustic HP was 1K2 (you would think they'd test these things on their own comp drivers...), so basically I left it and modified the LP.
Mine was basically the same dimensions as The Tube, plus an additional 1" of unslotted tube. Construction was thick paper soaked in glue and rolled. It was slotted when dry, and glued to a masonite baffle plate with a hole drilled in it, and then bolted to a PSD2002. easy peasy.
Thanks for all that info Freddi! I have the newer, higher qts model of the b102. I was kinda hoping I had the older model but oh well. Do you think it would work in the XKi for the 1772 with the longer 9" vent? Are the parameters close enough to the 10cx? I guess I should just build it and see, good practice anyways.
The k tube sure looks wild. I'll add it to the diy bucket list as it's different and I'm often drawn to that style of project.
Thanks for your help
Jeremy
The k tube sure looks wild. I'll add it to the diy bucket list as it's different and I'm often drawn to that style of project.
Thanks for your help
Jeremy
xrk971 can simulate in Akabak the situation. B102 should work well in K's anywhere from one cubic feet to two cubic feet rear chamber - it may simulate nicely in GregB's Karlsonator 12.
a K-tube's dispersion patterns nicely mate with Karlson type. You might find something like a KSN1005 type piezo if tamed to make a nice tweeter for B102, and sit it on top of the XKi or Karlson.
here's my later B102 mounted in a very old approximate 0.58 scale K15 - the cutout is for an 8 inch - I could consider this size
as a satellite along with a summed channel subwoofer
a K-tube's dispersion patterns nicely mate with Karlson type. You might find something like a KSN1005 type piezo if tamed to make a nice tweeter for B102, and sit it on top of the XKi or Karlson.
here's my later B102 mounted in a very old approximate 0.58 scale K15 - the cutout is for an 8 inch - I could consider this size
as a satellite along with a summed channel subwoofer
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