Perhaps 15 seconds of a high res 96kHz FLAC file for each driver may help to pull out all the stops in comparison of such small differences? I think that is about all I can fit on 1.8MB. And I will only do that for one sound clip per driver, so maybe clip 1 - the Barracuda intro?
I think these recordings are good enough. Once I switched to listening to only the left channel (closer to the woofer) I am getting a much more consistent listening experience between the drivers that closely matches the FR of the reference recording so that any sub 500hz differences (not the full-range driver) do not alter my impressions
I couldn't disagree more.
If the intent is a fun experiment, then it isn't wise to take real world conclusions, then its folly. Which we can all enjoy.
If on the other hand, you or others wish to take away serious conclusions about the relative quality and merits of one driver over another, then flawless method is necessary.
Channel imbalance and psuedo stereo ambience is unnecessary, and a flaw. That makes the difference between something real conclusion can be drawn from, and a fun experiment which shouldn't guide anyone in the choice of purchases.
So is this 'fun' or is the winner to be touted as supreme full range driver of the year?
😀 lol you tell me. Which side of the fence you on? All this fence hopping is infuriating
I am relieved those such as Jeshi and Fifth have taken the step to mix down to mono, or listen single channel, in order to eliminate the test clip bias. It is necessary to enable a valid conclusion to be drawn from a subjective opinion, on a personal level.
To be totally clear, I actually think it would make voting consensus far more obvious and valid if it were mono. Without such, it is almost like P10 proclaiming the some or other Alpair as the best thing around (when those that have listened 'in room' are overwhelmingly disappointed).
Enough labouring my point 😀
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I'll attach my votes as BYRTT did. Not sure about my guesses though 😀.
But this is how I hope it will pan out. One can dream...
Don't open it to let it sway your vote, just my personal view.
Edit: I primarily used track 1 to vote. Most familiar song for me.
But this is how I hope it will pan out. One can dream...
Don't open it to let it sway your vote, just my personal view.
Edit: I primarily used track 1 to vote. Most familiar song for me.
Mondogen,
As I said in post 1, making your own mono clip is fine - it's the using DAW and processing to deconstruct the clips that I was trying to avoid. But if folks feel like you need it to make that extra distinction then that is fine. And if you want mono, easiest is to listen to just one channel - left channel as Jeshi had pointed out is the better one. Since the source is mono using one mic is valid as recording of mono.
Not sure why you think I am on the fence? I am all about setting up the experiment and measurement as objectively as possible for consistent measurments that are repeatable - but the listening and judging of the sound clips from day 1 has always been to use your ears to subjectively listen (hence the name of the thread). Recall how much people argued when the progenitor of all these threads got closed down because of the term "objective", that and the fact that the CHN70 measured so differently from manufacturer's specs that all sorts of accusations of the invalidity of my setup or measurement techniques were thrown about. So after that thread got shut down, the only way to do any of this without causing so much angst by those unhappy to see their favorite brand unravel under measurement and comparitive listening was to call it Subjective. I think subjective is correct because in the end the choice is made by listening. If we were objective just the measurments should be enough. Luckily, the subjective choices thus far have been consistent with a driver exhibiting a flat measured response and probably lower measures harmonic distortion. From this standpoint, I think a useful outcome is that we have once again, reconfirmed that a flat frequency response is most pleasing to most people, not all people. Additionally, I think that I have shown that you can indeed do virtual auditioning of drivers. Think of how many people who now have had a chance to get an impression of a rare (in the U.S.) B80 whom otherwise would never have heard one? Or to hear a $100 10F? People aren't going to typically put down $100 to hear a driver if they are unsure of it just based on the rather tall activation energy imposed by the price.
As I said in post 1, making your own mono clip is fine - it's the using DAW and processing to deconstruct the clips that I was trying to avoid. But if folks feel like you need it to make that extra distinction then that is fine. And if you want mono, easiest is to listen to just one channel - left channel as Jeshi had pointed out is the better one. Since the source is mono using one mic is valid as recording of mono.
Not sure why you think I am on the fence? I am all about setting up the experiment and measurement as objectively as possible for consistent measurments that are repeatable - but the listening and judging of the sound clips from day 1 has always been to use your ears to subjectively listen (hence the name of the thread). Recall how much people argued when the progenitor of all these threads got closed down because of the term "objective", that and the fact that the CHN70 measured so differently from manufacturer's specs that all sorts of accusations of the invalidity of my setup or measurement techniques were thrown about. So after that thread got shut down, the only way to do any of this without causing so much angst by those unhappy to see their favorite brand unravel under measurement and comparitive listening was to call it Subjective. I think subjective is correct because in the end the choice is made by listening. If we were objective just the measurments should be enough. Luckily, the subjective choices thus far have been consistent with a driver exhibiting a flat measured response and probably lower measures harmonic distortion. From this standpoint, I think a useful outcome is that we have once again, reconfirmed that a flat frequency response is most pleasing to most people, not all people. Additionally, I think that I have shown that you can indeed do virtual auditioning of drivers. Think of how many people who now have had a chance to get an impression of a rare (in the U.S.) B80 whom otherwise would never have heard one? Or to hear a $100 10F? People aren't going to typically put down $100 to hear a driver if they are unsure of it just based on the rather tall activation energy imposed by the price.
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I am sorry that my use of DAW and processing to help me pick apart the differences goes against the spirit of this test. But this round4 is different from rounds1,2,3. This is a final to pick the "best of the best".
Honestly I have listened in stereo, listened in mono, listened to the left channel, listened with a 400hz HP filter and my feelings have not really changed from my first impressions...
I find 3 of the drivers are really excellent, one is not bad (but seems more distorted and less clean), and one I don't like.
I will keep trying with these top 3 and see if one stands out in some way.
Honestly I have listened in stereo, listened in mono, listened to the left channel, listened with a 400hz HP filter and my feelings have not really changed from my first impressions...
I find 3 of the drivers are really excellent, one is not bad (but seems more distorted and less clean), and one I don't like.
I will keep trying with these top 3 and see if one stands out in some way.
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Jeshi,
No need to apologize. You are doing your due diligence to pick the best, but now that you have picked it apart in mono and stereo and with a high pass, the subjective impression is still the same? That is my thinking too - and that is why I recorded it the way I did, because standing there in person to listen - I use both ears. I would never put an earplug in one ear to do critical listening to a single speaker. Our two ears gives us a bit more info I think - but it seems to be a distraction to some.
No need to apologize. You are doing your due diligence to pick the best, but now that you have picked it apart in mono and stereo and with a high pass, the subjective impression is still the same? That is my thinking too - and that is why I recorded it the way I did, because standing there in person to listen - I use both ears. I would never put an earplug in one ear to do critical listening to a single speaker. Our two ears gives us a bit more info I think - but it seems to be a distraction to some.
well I still feel that the stereo mic recording is causing problems. I would have recorded this with a single small cardioid instrument microphone (like a sure sm57, beyerdynamics mce530, At4021, earthworks or even the behringer ecm8000） and listen to that mono recording with both ears.
What I meant by my statement is that the two drivers that stuck out as "off" with the phasey/bass-imbalanced stereo recording still sounded that way once I cleaned up the recording. Sorry but with these high quality drivers, this aspect of the recording process does jump out more for me now.
But I can get a single mic recording method by only using the left channel of your recording and mixing that back into a mono recording which I listen to with both ears. And this is how I am doing all my listening now.
I'm just surprised that the clips are still stereo, despite myself and others mentioning the ambience was distracting when trying to critically and subjectively appraise drivers.
Not all folks will mix up mono, so thus not all listeners are exposed to the same Sound. I just feel it adds ambiguity to what should be a test anyone can complete, and with sufficient samples, votes should easily coalesce into a clear favourite (should one be clearly superior). This has not happened in any poll so far, so conclusions are at best highly personal.
Its odd. Human auditory perception should (no expert) be akin to visual perception. Some difference, largely the same.
Golden ears are a fallacy. That is training of ones own hearing (I.e. Without measurement even Jay cannot know he is hearing THD of a particular type)
I.e. You don't need to be trained to choose preference based on listening. However, those that are trying to appraise objectively which is a subjective opinion based test, can (as I have) hear something unnatural and come to false conclusions when faced with data.
Its all just about making the test for the untrained ear (yes most of us balk at that, and think we are trained, but are we really?) Are we just reacting to primal instinct?
Not all folks will mix up mono, so thus not all listeners are exposed to the same Sound. I just feel it adds ambiguity to what should be a test anyone can complete, and with sufficient samples, votes should easily coalesce into a clear favourite (should one be clearly superior). This has not happened in any poll so far, so conclusions are at best highly personal.
Its odd. Human auditory perception should (no expert) be akin to visual perception. Some difference, largely the same.
Golden ears are a fallacy. That is training of ones own hearing (I.e. Without measurement even Jay cannot know he is hearing THD of a particular type)
I.e. You don't need to be trained to choose preference based on listening. However, those that are trying to appraise objectively which is a subjective opinion based test, can (as I have) hear something unnatural and come to false conclusions when faced with data.
Its all just about making the test for the untrained ear (yes most of us balk at that, and think we are trained, but are we really?) Are we just reacting to primal instinct?
I hope more people attach the entire score of preference in a text file attached to a post prior to the close of the poll. Not to sway opinions but to see a bit more of the battle that lead them to the final choice. Many choose between 2 or 3, it's fun to see which ones.
It might affect scores, but one can always view the poll to do that.
Come on Jay, show your list 😀
It might affect scores, but one can always view the poll to do that.
Come on Jay, show your list 😀
The measurement mics (UMM6 or UMIK1) could be used but are omni and not cardiod. Also they are 48kHz sampling not 96kHz like the H4. So maybe best thing is for me to simply take left channel and populate both left and right tracks as mono fro left channel in future.
Attachments
.... enjoy ordered a pair of below.
Wow! Those look really nice. Thanks!
Now I have 6 more drivers for Round 5.
Sorry if I sounded negative. I'm one who worries about variables endlessly. I agree with most of what you said. Is the Peerless TG9 still in the running?
They are all in the running as there are many days left to go. One driver seems to be the darling so far but the others are starting get votes. We may end up with a flat toss up and one with a minor advantage dur to how good they a sound.
I'd be suspicious of any metal diaphrams since they usually have big resonant peaks just above the audio frequency range. I hear that causes fatigue over time.
If all of these drivers sounded about the same, I'd probably favor the one that has the best off axis response, since it would create less of a frequency response anomoly off axis where it crosses over to a tweeter. Just about any woofer is very usable up to at least 500HZ, so I'd only try to take such a small diaphram as we are talking about here down to 500HZ. Below 500HZ, I feel that more cone surface area is wise.
If all of these drivers sounded about the same, I'd probably favor the one that has the best off axis response, since it would create less of a frequency response anomoly off axis where it crosses over to a tweeter. Just about any woofer is very usable up to at least 500HZ, so I'd only try to take such a small diaphram as we are talking about here down to 500HZ. Below 500HZ, I feel that more cone surface area is wise.
Wow, you have very good ears, Eldam! And especially you were not affected by anything but ears.
on pair with your own choices you mean ?
have some proposals for 45 s clips : one with grand piano in a little Church (very good reccording), an other one from Ben Webster which is revealing on the saxo, and an other one with bass & female voice reccorded at RadioFrance ! Could be great to find a good 45 s of harmonica : very hard to reproduce according to me or my actual system !
have some proposals for 45 s clips : one with grand piano in a little Church (very good reccording), an other one from Ben Webster which is revealing on the saxo, and an other one with bass & female voice reccorded at RadioFrance ! Could be great to find a good 45 s of harmonica : very hard to reproduce according to me or my actual system !
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Those Jeep parts look awesome, the price is ridiculously low for what you get, especially the 6.5" drivers too. The sub costs a lot but the other drivers are attractively priced.