That's the thing - we build these because we like them and we like to make them. But sooner or later you find out that you have too many of these. And then you let them into the wild anyway. I have no plans whatsoever to sell clones for profit, but you can really give them as a gift to someone sometime or perhaps sell it at the cost of the parts or below that. And then you loose control of this. Then it matters how you labeled them.
That is the question: to label or not to label?...
Or: to stack them or let them go?...
No question: to build them or not.....
That is the question: to label or not to label?...
Or: to stack them or let them go?...
No question: to build them or not.....
You have to think twice before you try to "play" with the big players. We had this case in DK some years ago:
Polsemanden fra Silkeborg besejrede McDonald’s
He had used the name: McAllan for hvis "pølsevogn" ....where he sold "Danish" sausages.
McDonald did not like he used "Mc" in the name and there was a fight for 3 years.....but "he" won at the supreme court but it had some personal consequences.
Polsemanden fra Silkeborg besejrede McDonald’s
He had used the name: McAllan for hvis "pølsevogn" ....where he sold "Danish" sausages.
McDonald did not like he used "Mc" in the name and there was a fight for 3 years.....but "he" won at the supreme court but it had some personal consequences.
Well, I would not compare Nelson Pass and First Watt with McDonald's 
But I would not want me or any other DIYer play with (or, God forbid, against) First Watt.
That's why I started this thread - to see if we can have clear boundaries of what to do and what NOT to do with the labeling of the clones.
If we get some ideas and clear rules from that, that would be nice.
If not, then at least we will hear what other "brothers in arms" think about it.
But I would not want me or any other DIYer play with (or, God forbid, against) First Watt.
That's why I started this thread - to see if we can have clear boundaries of what to do and what NOT to do with the labeling of the clones.
If we get some ideas and clear rules from that, that would be nice.
If not, then at least we will hear what other "brothers in arms" think about it.
IMHO not allowed 
Is a commercial brand name and logo protected by many laws.
Find the answer and informations about protections of all companys logos and name brands ( not only hi-fi )
Are Logos Copyrighted or Trademarked? | by Stephanie Asmus | Branding101 | Medium
Is a commercial brand name and logo protected by many laws.
Find the answer and informations about protections of all companys logos and name brands ( not only hi-fi )
Are Logos Copyrighted or Trademarked? | by Stephanie Asmus | Branding101 | Medium
Attachments
I am reasonably familiar with US (and some foreign countries') IP laws and the enforcement of said laws and regulations with regard to copyrights, patents, and trademarks. I'd set that aside with the addition that the intellectual property holder has a legal obligation to protect their property. That has not been mentioned. In non-precise terms, they cannot simply allow some people to use it willy-nilly and not others.
On to the original question.
The OP was asking (IMO) what was proper and honorable to do in order to respect Nelson Pass's wishes and act with tact. It's a question of how to pay homage in the most respectful manner. I deferred to MR b/c he stated that in his opinion it was not in good form, and he knows Nelson Pass much better than I. Had I seen his post first, I would not have posted.
That is separate from what can or should be done legally and what actions can or may be taken by the IP holder.
On to MEPER's post.
MEPER, yes you are correct in terms of a trademark or logo. That trademark has limited bounds. That's also why you can see many things prefaced with 'i' not sold by or used under license from Apple. Apple hates it, but they have no legal recourse in a lot of situations. That doesn't mean that they won't try to get people to back down with their immense money pile and an army of lawyers.
With IP protected by copyrights or patents, you may not use them for any purpose (even personal) without license (a fancy word for permission under certain terms).
Copyright - Think of a protected font. If you publish a book using that font and sell it for money, or even print a free pamphlet for distribution, the owner of that IP is obligated to protect it. Yes, even a font. It is separate from the content. If they're aware of you using it even for personal use, they can take action.
Patents - Think of some circuits we play with. You not allowed to profit from the sale of other's property; that seems clear. What seems less clear is that you are not allowed to give it away or even use it personally unless expressly granted permission by the property's owner. As an example, a person (whatever their motivations might be) should not build 10,000 (or even 1 or 2) clones containing a currently protected design and use them personally or give them away without express permission/license. They have no right to use or distribute that intellectual property. If the owner is aware of that use taking place, they are obligated to take appropriate action lest they potentially reduce their standing in any future action that they may choose to take.
Music and recorded media; don't get me started.
Note - this is not legal advice. I am not a lawyer. I've never even played one on TV, but I've certainly worked with a lot of them on these specific topics. Others that are more well-versed please chime in. Back to our regularly scheduled programming.
On to the original question.
The OP was asking (IMO) what was proper and honorable to do in order to respect Nelson Pass's wishes and act with tact. It's a question of how to pay homage in the most respectful manner. I deferred to MR b/c he stated that in his opinion it was not in good form, and he knows Nelson Pass much better than I. Had I seen his post first, I would not have posted.
That is separate from what can or should be done legally and what actions can or may be taken by the IP holder.
On to MEPER's post.
MEPER, yes you are correct in terms of a trademark or logo. That trademark has limited bounds. That's also why you can see many things prefaced with 'i' not sold by or used under license from Apple. Apple hates it, but they have no legal recourse in a lot of situations. That doesn't mean that they won't try to get people to back down with their immense money pile and an army of lawyers.
With IP protected by copyrights or patents, you may not use them for any purpose (even personal) without license (a fancy word for permission under certain terms).
Copyright - Think of a protected font. If you publish a book using that font and sell it for money, or even print a free pamphlet for distribution, the owner of that IP is obligated to protect it. Yes, even a font. It is separate from the content. If they're aware of you using it even for personal use, they can take action.
Patents - Think of some circuits we play with. You not allowed to profit from the sale of other's property; that seems clear. What seems less clear is that you are not allowed to give it away or even use it personally unless expressly granted permission by the property's owner. As an example, a person (whatever their motivations might be) should not build 10,000 (or even 1 or 2) clones containing a currently protected design and use them personally or give them away without express permission/license. They have no right to use or distribute that intellectual property. If the owner is aware of that use taking place, they are obligated to take appropriate action lest they potentially reduce their standing in any future action that they may choose to take.
Music and recorded media; don't get me started.
Note - this is not legal advice. I am not a lawyer. I've never even played one on TV, but I've certainly worked with a lot of them on these specific topics. Others that are more well-versed please chime in. Back to our regularly scheduled programming.
Thank you, @ItsAllInMyHead.
Indeed, I asked this, because I would like to know how I can label the clones that I make in such a way that would honor Nelson Pass, pay him respect and make him happy, and at the same time would cater my vanity of displaying to others that I own and listen to Pass designed amp that I admire.
I will never make profit from that, but I am pretty sure that sooner or later some of my builds will leave my house and I would not want to let others later to profit from the way I labeled them by making any harm to First Watt or Nelson.
From what I see so far, First Watt is a registered trademark (the combination of words is registered without a claim of any specific font or other visual), therefore, I would say we cannot use this combination of words without an explicit permition (licence) from General Amplifier, Inc. And I believe Nelson should never give one, as then it should be given to everyone, and then it would be impossible to control any "for-profit" sellers who would not even think of paying any respect to that.
More over, we should not be using First Watt on our builds even if we think that Nelson would not be chasing us, as by merely doing this, we would put Nelson at risk with his chances to protect his rights in other cases where Nelson would care. As @ItsAllInMyHead said, it's like allow for everyone or not allow for anyone, and you have an obligation to protect if you want to keep your rights to the trademark.
Therefore, from all this, I would exclude First Watt in any form to be used on our labels.
What then? Hopefully, we can use M2X, F5, F6, Aleph J (or is Aleph also protected?)...
What about honouring Nelson Pass (designed by Nelson Pass, circuit by Nelson Pass, Pass DIY, ...) - or is blank front panel what honors Mr. Pass best?
Indeed, I asked this, because I would like to know how I can label the clones that I make in such a way that would honor Nelson Pass, pay him respect and make him happy, and at the same time would cater my vanity of displaying to others that I own and listen to Pass designed amp that I admire.
I will never make profit from that, but I am pretty sure that sooner or later some of my builds will leave my house and I would not want to let others later to profit from the way I labeled them by making any harm to First Watt or Nelson.
From what I see so far, First Watt is a registered trademark (the combination of words is registered without a claim of any specific font or other visual), therefore, I would say we cannot use this combination of words without an explicit permition (licence) from General Amplifier, Inc. And I believe Nelson should never give one, as then it should be given to everyone, and then it would be impossible to control any "for-profit" sellers who would not even think of paying any respect to that.
More over, we should not be using First Watt on our builds even if we think that Nelson would not be chasing us, as by merely doing this, we would put Nelson at risk with his chances to protect his rights in other cases where Nelson would care. As @ItsAllInMyHead said, it's like allow for everyone or not allow for anyone, and you have an obligation to protect if you want to keep your rights to the trademark.
Therefore, from all this, I would exclude First Watt in any form to be used on our labels.
What then? Hopefully, we can use M2X, F5, F6, Aleph J (or is Aleph also protected?)...
What about honouring Nelson Pass (designed by Nelson Pass, circuit by Nelson Pass, Pass DIY, ...) - or is blank front panel what honors Mr. Pass best?
I'm not sure what would happen when you sell your diy amp with a 'First Watt' label. Here second hand websites like ebay are actively scanned by customs for forgery. First Watt is not that big as Adidas etc. but it is always possible customs takes action. You can try to say 'It's ok for Nelson', but remember the law of a country always overrules the laws (contract..) of a company.
When we buy PCB's from DiyAudio Store it should be allowed to write what is written on the PCB also outside the amp?
E.g.: diyAudio M2X "Circuit by Nelson Pass".....is written on my PCB's. So maybe this can be used as a guideline. I keep my front panels clean but maybe DiyStore could offer some front panels via Modulus shop with some already "compliant" names and logos....maybe some to select from. Then maybe I would select a name/logo.....if it looks good.
E.g.: diyAudio M2X "Circuit by Nelson Pass".....is written on my PCB's. So maybe this can be used as a guideline. I keep my front panels clean but maybe DiyStore could offer some front panels via Modulus shop with some already "compliant" names and logos....maybe some to select from. Then maybe I would select a name/logo.....if it looks good.
After thinking about it I personally totally agree to avitkauskas and ItsAllInMyHead. Before talking about laws and rights, it would be a sign of respect to Nelson Pass not to use any of his logos.
Especially the present to all DIY from NP to share his designs, giving the chance to have real High-End for affordable money, made it an easy decision for me to remove the logo from my amp. No discussion, no misunderstanding, just fun to build and music afterwards - and that's what we're doing it for, right?
Especially the present to all DIY from NP to share his designs, giving the chance to have real High-End for affordable money, made it an easy decision for me to remove the logo from my amp. No discussion, no misunderstanding, just fun to build and music afterwards - and that's what we're doing it for, right?
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The federal government of the United States actually has a good idea which you may wish to copy. An arm of this government is called the Federal Aviation Administration and they make rules and laws about what must be written on an airplane in the USA. If you build it yourself, you must paint the word EXPERIMENTAL (all caps!) in a prominent place on the airplane.
If you put DIY: EXPERIMENTAL on the faceplate of your amplifier, absolutely nobody would confuse it with a professionally made amplifier built by Nelson Pass himself. Even if you give the amp to your kid, and she sells it on eBay a year later, nobody looking at the eBay listing would ever imagine it was an original piece built by First Watt or Nelson Pass.
And that's the goal, isn't it? To avoid any possibility that anybody at any time, could possibly believe that an amp assembled by an amateur (you), was a legitimate & full production First Watt product costing thousands of dollars, and backed by a lifetime guarantee.
If you put DIY: EXPERIMENTAL on the faceplate of your amplifier, absolutely nobody would confuse it with a professionally made amplifier built by Nelson Pass himself. Even if you give the amp to your kid, and she sells it on eBay a year later, nobody looking at the eBay listing would ever imagine it was an original piece built by First Watt or Nelson Pass.
And that's the goal, isn't it? To avoid any possibility that anybody at any time, could possibly believe that an amp assembled by an amateur (you), was a legitimate & full production First Watt product costing thousands of dollars, and backed by a lifetime guarantee.
