Re: Aleph 3 Owners Club
moe29,
Took your advice and decided to spend a very substantial amount (IMHO) on a commercial audio product, an Aleph 3. Very well worth it. The sound is so Zen v4. The only discernible difference and it's not much is in the bass. My Zv4 is a tad better maybe because of its dual mono power supply and more capacitance. The A3 in turn has a quieter turn on/off thump and is a tad cleaner in the highs. I'll probably use both of them for bi-amping in the future. Here are pics of my good old Zen Woody and my "new" Nelson Pass A3 BBQ Grill
Who's complaining about the output connectors? I'm able to bi-wire my speakers.
moe29 said:(my opinion)
My post was just lauding the original Aleph 3 - it's great looks,
and great sound.
I don't think you'll see that chasis used again in the Aleph series.
It was expensive to make, people whined about it's ergonomics,
and it just looked to cool for even the average joe hi-fi nut : )
So if you can find one, grab it!
(and then purchase an Aleph J for comparison purposes)
m. <---- Aleph 3 Owner
(can't wait to DIY a J)
moe29,
Took your advice and decided to spend a very substantial amount (IMHO) on a commercial audio product, an Aleph 3. Very well worth it. The sound is so Zen v4. The only discernible difference and it's not much is in the bass. My Zv4 is a tad better maybe because of its dual mono power supply and more capacitance. The A3 in turn has a quieter turn on/off thump and is a tad cleaner in the highs. I'll probably use both of them for bi-amping in the future. Here are pics of my good old Zen Woody and my "new" Nelson Pass A3 BBQ Grill
Who's complaining about the output connectors? I'm able to bi-wire my speakers.Attachments
have a look here:
http://www.audiovideologic.com/html/alephj.html
http://www.audiovideologic.com/html/alephj.html
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
From firstwatt.com ...
"The Aleph J carries on in the tradition of the Pass Labs Aleph series, combining those elements that were particularly right about the Aleph 3 and 30, and re-thinking those areas open to improvement. Unlike its First Watt predecessors the F1 and F2, the Aleph J is a voltage source amplifier – a regular sort of amplifier like the ones you already know and love.
There are differences between the Aleph J and its predecessors:
1) Improved power supply filtration with about 20 dB less voltage ripple
2) Reduced gain on the active current source, giving better overall performance into 8-16 ohm loads
3) Input stage using high quality matched JFETs
4) Much higher input impedance and vanishing capacitance
5) 15 dB less negative feedback.
6) Even greater stability, operating without lag compensation
7) 15 dB less noise
8) No electrolytic capacitor in the signal path
Some things have remained the same – the Aleph J has the same basic 2-stage topology and uses output MOSFETs operating in single-ended Class A mode. It’s distortion character is still 2nd harmonic, and it’s sound is still natural and liquid. It is still very reliable. I don’t know of a load that can damage it. "
Visit the website for owner's manual and the specs...the specs, c'mon you DIYers get to work!
"The Aleph J carries on in the tradition of the Pass Labs Aleph series, combining those elements that were particularly right about the Aleph 3 and 30, and re-thinking those areas open to improvement. Unlike its First Watt predecessors the F1 and F2, the Aleph J is a voltage source amplifier – a regular sort of amplifier like the ones you already know and love.
There are differences between the Aleph J and its predecessors:
1) Improved power supply filtration with about 20 dB less voltage ripple
2) Reduced gain on the active current source, giving better overall performance into 8-16 ohm loads
3) Input stage using high quality matched JFETs
4) Much higher input impedance and vanishing capacitance
5) 15 dB less negative feedback.
6) Even greater stability, operating without lag compensation
7) 15 dB less noise
8) No electrolytic capacitor in the signal path
Some things have remained the same – the Aleph J has the same basic 2-stage topology and uses output MOSFETs operating in single-ended Class A mode. It’s distortion character is still 2nd harmonic, and it’s sound is still natural and liquid. It is still very reliable. I don’t know of a load that can damage it. "
Visit the website for owner's manual and the specs...the specs, c'mon you DIYers get to work!
I use an Aleph 3 (2-stage) and an Aleph 0s (3-stage) with an Aleph P.
The sound of the Aleph 3 is holographic and natural at a level that is very rare to find on solid state amplifiers, however it could be a bit more 'organic'. Now, where it fails entirely is on controlling the woofer at low frequencies. This must be in part related with the 2-stage topology because the Aleph 0s, also class A single-ended but 3-stage, masters the woofer on low-freqs with authority, providing a clean response.
I just couldn't find a compatible speaker for the Aleph 3, therefore I don't use it on the LF woofers.
Now, my questions concerning the Aleph J:
- Does it get more 'organic' than the Aleph 3, getting close to some of the finest single-ended valve amplifiers?
- Does it solve the serious limitations of the Aleph 3 on dominating the low-frequencies woofers?
If it doesn't show improvements on these two areas, according to my perspective it will be in the same class - a sort of Aleph 3+, that will find its main target audience in audiophiles that didn't have the opportunity of owning its younger brother, the also amazing Aleph 3. Still, they must be able to use compatible speakers (not easy), otherwise will be limited to a few musical types not demanding on low freqs (like voices, piano, trumpet, violins, acoustic guitar, etc.).
The sound of the Aleph 3 is holographic and natural at a level that is very rare to find on solid state amplifiers, however it could be a bit more 'organic'. Now, where it fails entirely is on controlling the woofer at low frequencies. This must be in part related with the 2-stage topology because the Aleph 0s, also class A single-ended but 3-stage, masters the woofer on low-freqs with authority, providing a clean response.
I just couldn't find a compatible speaker for the Aleph 3, therefore I don't use it on the LF woofers.
Now, my questions concerning the Aleph J:
- Does it get more 'organic' than the Aleph 3, getting close to some of the finest single-ended valve amplifiers?
- Does it solve the serious limitations of the Aleph 3 on dominating the low-frequencies woofers?
If it doesn't show improvements on these two areas, according to my perspective it will be in the same class - a sort of Aleph 3+, that will find its main target audience in audiophiles that didn't have the opportunity of owning its younger brother, the also amazing Aleph 3. Still, they must be able to use compatible speakers (not easy), otherwise will be limited to a few musical types not demanding on low freqs (like voices, piano, trumpet, violins, acoustic guitar, etc.).
I made some Aleph 5 or 30 type monoblocks.I say 30 because the output stage had 4+4 output Mosfets but the rest of the specifications were from the 5 .
I also found the 5/30 very smooth especially in the midrange but the bass could have been a lot better.I also detected a slight sheen in the highs that although not aggressive sometimes bothered me- although this could be attributed also in part to partnering equipment.
All in all a very good amp and easy on the ear with a kind of voluptuous sound that did not seem to break up at higher levels.
However it was only after I transformed the amps into Aleph x that I felt I had the best of everything.The amp retained its organic feel but became much tighter in the bass and airy in the highs.It is very sensitive to preamplification and even though the bosoz was pretty good I could not get it to work properly into the x´s.The bass was too loose and there was a very slight raggedness in the mids and a bit of splashiness in the highs.At the moment I am trying a battery powered opamp w buffer/current sources biased in class a type pre which is sounding better.
For comparison I also have a JELabs type ``300b`` with plitron iron and KR842 tubes and NOS RCA5692 driver at about 18W.All this into italian Zingali 90db hybrid horn speakers.
In conclusion I feel the Aleph X properly set up comes closer to the SET amp than the Aleph5/30.Of course as Nelson has pointed out the difference between 2nd and 3rd type harmonic signature of my two amps can clearly be heard.To risk sounding commonplace I do prefer the SET amp for most Jazz ,vocal,blues and it is a pretty fast amp with rock/electronica etc where I would tend to switch to the x´s for more punch .However the x´s are not far behind at all with regard the organic/musical flow/smoothness category which is saying a lot since we are comparing to the ``kings of the category`` in this regard.
Now perhaps with the Aleph J perhaps some of the Aleph 3/30 problems that I at least encountered have been addressed.I still haven´t seen an Aleph 2/5/30 vs Aleph x head to head yet??With so many fans out there that is strange.Very little feedback on this subject still.
I also found the 5/30 very smooth especially in the midrange but the bass could have been a lot better.I also detected a slight sheen in the highs that although not aggressive sometimes bothered me- although this could be attributed also in part to partnering equipment.
All in all a very good amp and easy on the ear with a kind of voluptuous sound that did not seem to break up at higher levels.
However it was only after I transformed the amps into Aleph x that I felt I had the best of everything.The amp retained its organic feel but became much tighter in the bass and airy in the highs.It is very sensitive to preamplification and even though the bosoz was pretty good I could not get it to work properly into the x´s.The bass was too loose and there was a very slight raggedness in the mids and a bit of splashiness in the highs.At the moment I am trying a battery powered opamp w buffer/current sources biased in class a type pre which is sounding better.
For comparison I also have a JELabs type ``300b`` with plitron iron and KR842 tubes and NOS RCA5692 driver at about 18W.All this into italian Zingali 90db hybrid horn speakers.
In conclusion I feel the Aleph X properly set up comes closer to the SET amp than the Aleph5/30.Of course as Nelson has pointed out the difference between 2nd and 3rd type harmonic signature of my two amps can clearly be heard.To risk sounding commonplace I do prefer the SET amp for most Jazz ,vocal,blues and it is a pretty fast amp with rock/electronica etc where I would tend to switch to the x´s for more punch .However the x´s are not far behind at all with regard the organic/musical flow/smoothness category which is saying a lot since we are comparing to the ``kings of the category`` in this regard.
Now perhaps with the Aleph J perhaps some of the Aleph 3/30 problems that I at least encountered have been addressed.I still haven´t seen an Aleph 2/5/30 vs Aleph x head to head yet??With so many fans out there that is strange.Very little feedback on this subject still.
@Mr. Pass:
Mr. Pass, let me say this in advance: I respect you very much and I know that you are music lover in search for the truth. Your friendly and idealistic attitude is most welcome.
I just listened here in Germany to the X-600 and must say that it is very very good (for a semiconductor amp) but it failed by a good margin against VAIC (PSE) and Voyage (PP) tube poweramps. Now you build low poweramps to drive Lowther and kinds - fantastic idea and I wish you good luck for your business. But with all respect Mr. Pass, why don't you build a tube amp? You said yourself that with ongoing years your listening preferences are more towards the 'romantic' side.
Another point is: You are using MOSFETS!? The best semiconductor amp I ever heard was an Accuphase P-300 (heavily tweaked) with MJ15003/4 pairs. How come that this old P-300 amp (1974) tweaked with modern high-end parts sounds so much sweeter than the X-600? BTW, normally I don't like Accuphase, the Preamps are nothing less than a catastrophy - and not only to my ears.
No offense or provocation here just wondering.
Mr. Pass, let me say this in advance: I respect you very much and I know that you are music lover in search for the truth. Your friendly and idealistic attitude is most welcome.
I just listened here in Germany to the X-600 and must say that it is very very good (for a semiconductor amp) but it failed by a good margin against VAIC (PSE) and Voyage (PP) tube poweramps. Now you build low poweramps to drive Lowther and kinds - fantastic idea and I wish you good luck for your business. But with all respect Mr. Pass, why don't you build a tube amp? You said yourself that with ongoing years your listening preferences are more towards the 'romantic' side.
Another point is: You are using MOSFETS!? The best semiconductor amp I ever heard was an Accuphase P-300 (heavily tweaked) with MJ15003/4 pairs. How come that this old P-300 amp (1974) tweaked with modern high-end parts sounds so much sweeter than the X-600? BTW, normally I don't like Accuphase, the Preamps are nothing less than a catastrophy - and not only to my ears.
No offense or provocation here just wondering.
ElectricHead,
Unlike most amp makers, Pass Labs has a product range where you can find deep sound differences. The X600 sounds rather different from other Pass amplifiers, like the Aleph J.
The X600 has not the same target philosophy as a VAIC (PSE) tube poweramp, therefore it is natural that they sound different. The bass on the X600 is far better. Less romantic, it's true, but in part that's because the X600 has much better extension - it is a fullrange and not a midrange amplifier. It has no induced harmonic distortions or bandwidth limitations so that certain kinds of music sound better. It amplifies accurately anything.
I haven't heard the Aleph J, but the most romantic solid state amp I have heard was the Aleph 3 (which I own) paired with a pair of 95dB Cabasse speakers. I have compared it with a few valve amplifiers on the same price range and the Aleph 3 provided the best all-round performance.
So, I find your comparison unbalanced (unfair), except in the final question, regarding the use of mosfets. What could be won or lost by not using mosfets?
Unlike most amp makers, Pass Labs has a product range where you can find deep sound differences. The X600 sounds rather different from other Pass amplifiers, like the Aleph J.
The X600 has not the same target philosophy as a VAIC (PSE) tube poweramp, therefore it is natural that they sound different. The bass on the X600 is far better. Less romantic, it's true, but in part that's because the X600 has much better extension - it is a fullrange and not a midrange amplifier. It has no induced harmonic distortions or bandwidth limitations so that certain kinds of music sound better. It amplifies accurately anything.
I haven't heard the Aleph J, but the most romantic solid state amp I have heard was the Aleph 3 (which I own) paired with a pair of 95dB Cabasse speakers. I have compared it with a few valve amplifiers on the same price range and the Aleph 3 provided the best all-round performance.
So, I find your comparison unbalanced (unfair), except in the final question, regarding the use of mosfets. What could be won or lost by not using mosfets?
I understand your arguments very well, me myself was tormented for years using SE 300B monos in the endless search for the right loudspeaker (linear and high eff.).
BUT there are 2 major issues regarding the sound of transistors:
1. 3D projection is always a problem for the semicons they maybe never reach the holographic qualities of tubes.
2. Texture quality and tonal naturalness is the most weakest point with the semicons.
I know many different persons here in Germany involved in music, recording engineer, mezzo sopranists, classical trained musicians, violin makers etc., they all refuse to give up their tube amps and they all insist that the transistor amps are unnatural in terms of space and textures. I just want to remind you that a Technics amp will measure like world champion in comparison to a SE 300B amp but remains unlistenable in any respect.
BUT there are 2 major issues regarding the sound of transistors:
1. 3D projection is always a problem for the semicons they maybe never reach the holographic qualities of tubes.
2. Texture quality and tonal naturalness is the most weakest point with the semicons.
I know many different persons here in Germany involved in music, recording engineer, mezzo sopranists, classical trained musicians, violin makers etc., they all refuse to give up their tube amps and they all insist that the transistor amps are unnatural in terms of space and textures. I just want to remind you that a Technics amp will measure like world champion in comparison to a SE 300B amp but remains unlistenable in any respect.
That's another advantage of the X600 over low-power tube amplifiers - no headaches finding a speaker that matches.
There are 5 major issues regarding the sound of valves:
1. Speakers: Difficult (impossible?) quest for the perfect speaker (with a X600 just connect any speakers and enjoy).
2. Bass: Low power and low bottom-extension compromises the use on over 80% of a non-classical record collection. The spirit of the music is gone. The Technics will sound much better on many rock tracks. I won't even mention cinema applications...
3. Treble: Low top-extension compromises SACD added information above 20KHz.
4. Limited application: Not all-rounders. You'll need a second system for most types of music.
5. Unstable sound over time: After a year or so you will start thinking "something is not right - should I exchange the valves?"
There are 5 major issues regarding the sound of valves:
1. Speakers: Difficult (impossible?) quest for the perfect speaker (with a X600 just connect any speakers and enjoy).
2. Bass: Low power and low bottom-extension compromises the use on over 80% of a non-classical record collection. The spirit of the music is gone. The Technics will sound much better on many rock tracks. I won't even mention cinema applications...
3. Treble: Low top-extension compromises SACD added information above 20KHz.
4. Limited application: Not all-rounders. You'll need a second system for most types of music.
5. Unstable sound over time: After a year or so you will start thinking "something is not right - should I exchange the valves?"
ElectricHead said:
To the first question, I choose a limited field in which I can
make some significant progress, and I find it more interesting
to pursue getting music out of transistors. It seems to me that
there are already plenty of people working on doing that with
tubes, but after all these years I still see that in general the
transistor designs are overly complex. Since I think that
complexity tends to be the nemesis of musicality, this seems
a natural place to explore. Of course, tubes by their very nature
tend to enforce some simplicity on the designer.
I have used Mosfets because they allow more simplicity in a
circuit than bipolar and even tube gain devices. Until recently,
it was the only device that would allow a practical single-stage
power amplifier. Of course now I have a stock of power JFETs,
and it may be that they will serve me better in the future.
I don't think the MJ15003/4 as modern parts anymore, but that
aside, I have no idea why the Accuphase would sound better
than the X600. Perhaps you should hear an X600.5.
ElectricHead said:
best gadgets for creation or recreation of music in this world are made primary with love (passion) and knowledge- and then only secondary with tubes or transistors
I have chance to hear or repair or make some of best beforementioned gadgets and I can tell you (or anybody else) that I will never again make fool of me commenting "how tubes (or transistor,doesn't matter which you choose) are better than ......"
cheers to all open minded (and to others,too
)ps-even Technics made few decent amps , but Pass's amps are not in any meaning or form in league of Technics
I love it when someone so succinctly defines their position with a minimum of words.
"You are using MOSFETS!?"
Gasp!
Quick! Cover the tender ears of the women and children! Such blasphemy should not have to be endured by those who were raised to expect more gentle treatment.
Err...
Speaking as one who has feet in both camps, I've found that MOSFETs can be made to sound pretty warm. I'd recommend that you try class A. The X amps are AB. Give the Aleph or XA series amps a try before you throw the baby out with the bath water.
Grey
"You are using MOSFETS!?"
Gasp!
Quick! Cover the tender ears of the women and children! Such blasphemy should not have to be endured by those who were raised to expect more gentle treatment.
Err...
Speaking as one who has feet in both camps, I've found that MOSFETs can be made to sound pretty warm. I'd recommend that you try class A. The X amps are AB. Give the Aleph or XA series amps a try before you throw the baby out with the bath water.
Grey
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