No, that would be naive. However inexpensive does generally mean they're clones of the manufacturer's application notes and therefore unlikely to be optimized for SQ.
SQ? Sound quality? Second question: Does everything have to be abbreviated?
Clones? I think pretty much everything then, except the sample board from Texas Instruments would be a "clone", and therefore suspect.
Listen, I am far from an expert in electronics. That said, to me, as long as the schematic suggested by Texas Instruments, Tripath or whatever company is followed by whoever is building the board it is not a clone. In other words if the schematic calls for a 47K ohm resistor, and a 47K ohm resistor is used.......well then what's the problem?
My point is not to start an argument, and I don't mean to do that.
My point is simple this: I don't see anybody ripping apart their $12,000 Shindo preamps; yet those use very off-the-shelf parts. I don't see a single boutique part in the one I looked at. Yet, the owner declares it so special and magical. Probably because he's got the price of a good used Honda into it.
Mark
Clones? I think pretty much everything then, except the sample board from Texas Instruments would be a "clone", and therefore suspect.
Listen, I am far from an expert in electronics. That said, to me, as long as the schematic suggested by Texas Instruments, Tripath or whatever company is followed by whoever is building the board it is not a clone. In other words if the schematic calls for a 47K ohm resistor, and a 47K ohm resistor is used.......well then what's the problem?
My point is not to start an argument, and I don't mean to do that.
My point is simple this: I don't see anybody ripping apart their $12,000 Shindo preamps; yet those use very off-the-shelf parts. I don't see a single boutique part in the one I looked at. Yet, the owner declares it so special and magical. Probably because he's got the price of a good used Honda into it.
Mark
I rather suspect that you have misinterpreted my use of the word 'clone'. I didn't use it in a pejorative way, just to indicate that the designers of these cheap boards tend to, at best, copy what the manufacturers recommend. And in many cases they don't reach that standard because they make errors in transcribing the designs.
Since you're no expert in electronics by your own admission then perhaps you'd accept that manufacturers like TI don't design for sound quality, they design for datasheet numbers. DIYers like those here provide a valuable service in innovating tweaks and mods which push the subjective performance envelope higher. Do you consider that a bad thing, and if so why?
<edit> As regards $12k high end kit, if people don't tear that apart then have you considered that they haven't done that because they're as yet unaware of any sonic failings of it?
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I agree
Good points Abrax. As usual, your thoughts are cogent!
Mark
Or, they just think it's perfection because hey...it cost $12,000!
Good points Abrax. As usual, your thoughts are cogent!
Mark
I am not taking sides but just want to point out that this thread could very quickly slide into the "usual" debate that I have seen many times before in this forum.
TI don't design for sound quality, they design for datasheet numbers - there are no definitions of good Sound quality, therefor TI "cannot" design something targeting good sound quality. Datasheet numbers are important for devices, components etc. - low noise, low THD, flat frequency response, wide band width etc. are good datasheet numbers. What's wrong with that?
I can accept that good number do not necessary directly relate to good sound quality. The sound that we are hearing goes through a lot of devices, from source, to amp to speakers (not to mention a lot of cables and connectors). Changing the amp alone might make things worse - may be the devices are not working properly together and the sound is therefore not "good".
Different people hear the things differently, who's "right" and who's "wrong"? Nobody.
We, the DIYer's like to tinker, the goal is very simple - trying to make things "better" for ourselves, and also to gain knowledge while doing it. These are sufficient motivations for us. These are very subjective desires.
If someone find the original amps sound great and no need for modding, fine. Please try to understand from the perspective of the DIYers.
We can always debate in a civilized way but do not get personal.
Just enjoy the music!
Regards,
I find it mildly amusing that the guys at TI, that actually design the chips, are being told what they did wrong by a bunch using only their ears as a diagnostic tools. I'm happy not to be able to see the Emperor's new clothes.
I find it mildly amusing that the guys at TI, that actually design the chips, are being told what they did wrong by a bunch using only their ears as a diagnostic tools. I'm happy not to be able to see the Emperor's new clothes.
What part of that post was not clear to you. What part of earlier posts regarding you and this board have not been clear to you. No one's hovering over your board with a solder gun. No one's going to sneak in and swap out your caps when you're not looking. All you do is snipe about the 3116 and make wise *** comments about anyone who wants to mod their TDA7297. Why waste time on this thread if modding bothers you? You know your comments don't serve any purpose but to crap the thread, yet you persist. Are you that bored?
Don't think it's worth it to mod your board? Here's a tip. Don't. Think your posting over and over about it like a broken record will make a difference? Here's a tip. It won't.
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Most of you guys are building "Boomboxes", hardly Hifi, more like cheapfi.
Assumption. You have no idea what I might be doing with these boards! And what do you care what "you guys" are upto.
Nothing at all is wrong with that. I did not mean to say there was. You are quite correct - TI has no reason to design for sound quality. By which I mean no economic incentive to do so. Which is why its no surprise at all that to get satisfying sound, their designs need modification.
However if you read the datasheet for certain opamps (OPA604 is an example) you will find they mention sound quality. Such datasheets are the exception though.
I have wrote something very close in Mark Audio amp thread. But they unintentionally suceeded. Maybe their EMI performance-focused modulation scheme helped.
Before my red 2.0 boards has arrived I was going to put them in kitchen ceiling etc. Just based on datasheet numbers (and maybe price) I was not hoping for real hifi sound. I had no idea it ever could replace my main system' sustained UCD180. Listening to it for a week I'd say it would.
While everyone knows UCD has much (10 times easily) better THD specs...
Whoa, lots of strong opinions. There is no need to fight about modding.
If you are satisfied with the stock performance, don't do it.
If not, do it. Some like to change a few caps and it's ok. Some like to change up to the last resistor, reroute powerlines and ground planes. It's a matter of taste, skill and knowledge.
But still, no need to argue about it.
Except about the best mods, components, and cost-performance ratio.
If you are satisfied with the stock performance, don't do it.
If not, do it. Some like to change a few caps and it's ok. Some like to change up to the last resistor, reroute powerlines and ground planes. It's a matter of taste, skill and knowledge.
But still, no need to argue about it.
Except about the best mods, components, and cost-performance ratio.
It's not a 100% fair comparison as Hypex used with PGA volume control and MOSFET-based input mux while TPA has solely volume pot but anyway it surely can strongly compete at least. Will probably perform clean test once. Was absolutely happy with UCD before so was no urge for tweaking the input
Keeping on topic, I'm lazy enough when it come to mods
Another reason for the modding is the quality of the components. Cristi of Connex for instance has provided a lot of insight into the poor component parts quality of these chinese boards. From personal experience I've found replacing resistors to be almost necessary because the noise level drops audibly to my ears when you replace them. I've found this time and again. Of course there are plenty of threads all over this forum about this kind of thing, cap fraud, quality etc. This is why I was hoping initially for boards from Cristi because then quality would be assured - but he can't compete with the ebay prices. I wish I had more technical expertise (and more importantly, time) or I would give it a shot myself.
Not to mention cheap ferrite inductors with high HF losses.
Incidentally with all the rave reviews about this chip, I'm curious if anyone has yet played with the newer, digital input version TAS5760 ?
Speaker Amplifier and Modulator - Mid/High-Power Amplifier - TAS5760M - TI.com
Incidentally with all the rave reviews about this chip, I'm curious if anyone has yet played with the newer, digital input version TAS5760 ?
Speaker Amplifier and Modulator - Mid/High-Power Amplifier - TAS5760M - TI.com
Just another tip.
I think you guys should be aware that it is good to replace these boards components with better quality ones that will fit into place but It is not good to replace with components that won't fit in the space provided. Having a board with long legged caps will only degrade the sound, big bulky capacitors are not going to do any good to these boards.
I saw someone had electrolytics for the input filter and by doing that he added a RF collector that will collect all the RF radiated in the area and provide nothing else but rf garbage.
I think you guys should be aware that it is good to replace these boards components with better quality ones that will fit into place but It is not good to replace with components that won't fit in the space provided. Having a board with long legged caps will only degrade the sound, big bulky capacitors are not going to do any good to these boards.
I saw someone had electrolytics for the input filter and by doing that he added a RF collector that will collect all the RF radiated in the area and provide nothing else but rf garbage.