Hehe, yes once I start writing it just flows..
Very interesting about the multi channel and FIR capability. Thanks for the info.
I'll read up.
It's the sort of multi output flexibility I need.
6 outputs go just on the SH50 left and right channels + 2 for the tapped horns. That's for Hifi.
For Home Theatre I need the 6 for SH50 - that could be handled by Najda still? Then 2 for the tapped subs, 2 for rear left and right, for centre, extra centre rear a nice to have.
So 6 like you have would work.
Does your solution do the Home Theatre splitting up the channels? Hdmi/AEC? I guess it's optical only?
Does it have optical out, so could chain to Najda?
FIR definitely feels like something I've got to try, soon or later.
I can live without FIR on the upper channels, the phase coherent, XO free set up works just fine on them.
The LF and Tapped horns will require lots of taps...
Very interesting about the multi channel and FIR capability. Thanks for the info.
I'll read up.
It's the sort of multi output flexibility I need.
6 outputs go just on the SH50 left and right channels + 2 for the tapped horns. That's for Hifi.
For Home Theatre I need the 6 for SH50 - that could be handled by Najda still? Then 2 for the tapped subs, 2 for rear left and right, for centre, extra centre rear a nice to have.
So 6 like you have would work.
Does your solution do the Home Theatre splitting up the channels? Hdmi/AEC? I guess it's optical only?
Does it have optical out, so could chain to Najda?
FIR definitely feels like something I've got to try, soon or later.
I can live without FIR on the upper channels, the phase coherent, XO free set up works just fine on them.
The LF and Tapped horns will require lots of taps...
We received the screen today.
It's big!
Wall mount arrives to tomorrow.
As does the extra recliner sofa and two recliner chairs.
I connected the screen up to a Sonos Beam we have via EARC, and Najda / hifi 2 channel up via the optical out.
Even this crude non proper 5.2 setup sounds pretty amazing.
Real rumble and thunder from the tapped horns! Clear audio etc from the SH50s.
Sonos Beam essentially doing centre and L+R rear by a pair of Play 1s.
We test watched some of The Martian film.
Must try one with more music.
It will certainly do whilst we figure out what to do for a more proper 5.2, 6.2, 7.2🙂 solution.
Just need the low equipment rack now!
This leaves 2 channel Hifi completely unmolested.
I tested out more drum solos.
The SH50 LF and Tapped horns really kick and work in unison well.
It's big!
Wall mount arrives to tomorrow.
As does the extra recliner sofa and two recliner chairs.
I connected the screen up to a Sonos Beam we have via EARC, and Najda / hifi 2 channel up via the optical out.
Even this crude non proper 5.2 setup sounds pretty amazing.
Real rumble and thunder from the tapped horns! Clear audio etc from the SH50s.
Sonos Beam essentially doing centre and L+R rear by a pair of Play 1s.
We test watched some of The Martian film.
Must try one with more music.
It will certainly do whilst we figure out what to do for a more proper 5.2, 6.2, 7.2🙂 solution.
Just need the low equipment rack now!
This leaves 2 channel Hifi completely unmolested.
I tested out more drum solos.
The SH50 LF and Tapped horns really kick and work in unison well.
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These are the articles by Mitch Barnett that got me started in my FIR journey. He happens to use Lynx Hilo too, which helped me realize the potential the Hilo had.
This one is an intro into Acourate room correction. It´s best to get a handle of this and then read the 2nd one where he introduces digital (FIR) xo:
1) https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/ca-a...-loudspeaker-correction-software-walkthrough/
2) https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/ca-a...e-alignment-driver-linearization-walkthrough/
Later, Mitch wrote an ebook that further delves into Acourate that is pretty handy.
One downside of FIR crossovers, when used for home theater, is their latency (time delay until the sound is heard, which becomes a mismatch with video). A walkaround is to use regular xo for home theater and FIR for music. This is what I do, and the reduced audio quality isn´t significant (to me) when watching a screen. My setup is the same 2 speakers (3-way active) left & right plus 4 subs both for music and video. I use a micro computer with HDMI out to the screen and USB out to Lynx Hilo. For video the computer boots into Windows and runs JRiver with the active crossovers in place. For music, the computer is booted as a HQPLayer network audio adapter, and receives the stream from another computer running Roon/HQPlayer. From Hilo straight into amps for midbass, midrange and tweeters.
I do use optical from Hilo to miniDSP 4x10HD. I could have used copper SPDIF too. And the miniDSP through 4 coax cables into the the 4 subs (optimized using Multi-Sub Optimizer, which has been great). Hilo would allow to send 2 channels through optical to ne device (in my case miniDSP) and copper SPDIF to another device (before the miniDSP I used a stereo DAC for 2 subs, before moving to 4 subs). I have not used the AES digital out. Maybe Najda has AES input?
I had not realized the SH50 was crossover free! I guess you achieve the passband of the midrange and midbass through proper sizing/location/number of the openings into the horn? Did you calculate that?
If you use one channel for the SH50, a room correction software such as Acourate can still help you achieve the house curve you prefer.
This one is an intro into Acourate room correction. It´s best to get a handle of this and then read the 2nd one where he introduces digital (FIR) xo:
1) https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/ca-a...-loudspeaker-correction-software-walkthrough/
2) https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/ca-a...e-alignment-driver-linearization-walkthrough/
Later, Mitch wrote an ebook that further delves into Acourate that is pretty handy.
One downside of FIR crossovers, when used for home theater, is their latency (time delay until the sound is heard, which becomes a mismatch with video). A walkaround is to use regular xo for home theater and FIR for music. This is what I do, and the reduced audio quality isn´t significant (to me) when watching a screen. My setup is the same 2 speakers (3-way active) left & right plus 4 subs both for music and video. I use a micro computer with HDMI out to the screen and USB out to Lynx Hilo. For video the computer boots into Windows and runs JRiver with the active crossovers in place. For music, the computer is booted as a HQPLayer network audio adapter, and receives the stream from another computer running Roon/HQPlayer. From Hilo straight into amps for midbass, midrange and tweeters.
I do use optical from Hilo to miniDSP 4x10HD. I could have used copper SPDIF too. And the miniDSP through 4 coax cables into the the 4 subs (optimized using Multi-Sub Optimizer, which has been great). Hilo would allow to send 2 channels through optical to ne device (in my case miniDSP) and copper SPDIF to another device (before the miniDSP I used a stereo DAC for 2 subs, before moving to 4 subs). I have not used the AES digital out. Maybe Najda has AES input?
I had not realized the SH50 was crossover free! I guess you achieve the passband of the midrange and midbass through proper sizing/location/number of the openings into the horn? Did you calculate that?
If you use one channel for the SH50, a room correction software such as Acourate can still help you achieve the house curve you prefer.
Cool. Will read up on.
Yes, that would be annoying if lip sync is too off.
Dual system for Home Theatre and Hifi would be fine.
Haha, I wish. I have Tom Danley to thank for that.
I reproduced the placement and sizings.
There is a passive setup in the real SH50s. Not sure what is X/O and what is notch filter, L-Pad etc. It's a work of art.
Your can also order a DSP version and you get the data required to implement the DSP, I believe.
Doing in DSP is easy peasey in comparison.
Used Chris' method measuring at 1m.
That said;
Even without any PEQs at all on any of the 3 ways, they sound pretty good.
I'm in the camp that you can over PEQ things. Esp HF.
Najda does not.
It could not make sense of 5.1 to route surround to different analogue outputs, like miniDSP flex 8 HT could.
I wonder if 2 X miniDSP could be a user friendly solution.
I really need a Flex 12 HT😂
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I've been been listening to some really nice live performances lately.
This one is great
And not quite as good for me but nice
Though I use Qobuz to stream them.
These speakers really do good live performances like no others I've ever owned.
It's to be expected as they are intended to bring out the best of live music in venues.
They are so immediate yet right - get up and boogie, do relaxed, punchy, dynamic etc etc.
This one is great
And not quite as good for me but nice
Though I use Qobuz to stream them.
These speakers really do good live performances like no others I've ever owned.
It's to be expected as they are intended to bring out the best of live music in venues.
They are so immediate yet right - get up and boogie, do relaxed, punchy, dynamic etc etc.
Recalling the schematic
Reality is finally catching up.
Got the 2nd reclining sofa in place now.
Screen is up and single hifi rack replaced by a low unit.
Room decluttered.
The screen looks quite small in the pic, but it's quite big in reality.
The front seats look nearer than they are too.
There's enough room for all to recline.
With the rear seats on 8" platforms, the view of the screen is unimpeded.
All seats see both horn inner sides, so you hear both pretty well.
It's fine for Cinema. Most action is the centre and the tapped horn subs😈
For hifi the front sofa moves out parallel to the side wall, as does the front recliner.
Can then either have the 2 seater sofa in the middle or full selfish single mode - rear sofa also to the left side wall and front recliner in the centre as near or far as you like.
We're having a great time watching movies and the whole family can enjoy the room.
Hifi wise it all sounds as good.
The SH50s move forward on aluminium channel rails nice and easy. Have then 3ft to the front wall.
I can also easily try different positions, 1ft, 2ft etc.
The sofas are on those Teflon slider feet pads, quite large ones.
They are great!
Makes reconfiguring the room a cinch.
Reality is finally catching up.
Got the 2nd reclining sofa in place now.
Screen is up and single hifi rack replaced by a low unit.
Room decluttered.
The screen looks quite small in the pic, but it's quite big in reality.
The front seats look nearer than they are too.
There's enough room for all to recline.
With the rear seats on 8" platforms, the view of the screen is unimpeded.
All seats see both horn inner sides, so you hear both pretty well.
It's fine for Cinema. Most action is the centre and the tapped horn subs😈
For hifi the front sofa moves out parallel to the side wall, as does the front recliner.
Can then either have the 2 seater sofa in the middle or full selfish single mode - rear sofa also to the left side wall and front recliner in the centre as near or far as you like.
We're having a great time watching movies and the whole family can enjoy the room.
Hifi wise it all sounds as good.
The SH50s move forward on aluminium channel rails nice and easy. Have then 3ft to the front wall.
I can also easily try different positions, 1ft, 2ft etc.
The sofas are on those Teflon slider feet pads, quite large ones.
They are great!
Makes reconfiguring the room a cinch.
Come September I'm going to be taking the Danley SH50 alikes to a small / medium sized hall for a hifi event.
I'm quite excited about it..
I need some advice on where / what.
The room size is
About 12m (+ bar) X 6m plus the north wing of 5m X 7m.
I would estimate the height of 4 or maybe 4.5m with a nice curved roof.
Not sure which positioning is best?
I can't take my tall narrow tapped horns, so was thinking to make a big Lab12 sub 60" X 38" X 14" or so, to do below 60Hz odd.
I intend to raise the SH50s up about 1.5m but could perhaps go higher?
We don't need ear splitting PA volumes.
It's a hifi gathering.
90bB at the back should do it.
There won't be that many people there, maybe 50 or so (estimate).
Questions
Will a single sub be enough?
Is 1.5m up high enough?
Which positioning in the room would be best? I might not have control of that though..
What volume to aim for? 90-95dB in my mind as max.
Will one LF driver and 2 MF drivers be adequate per cab, out do I need to go full Danley and add to get 7 drivers?
(I knda want to do this anyway at some point 🙂)
I thought to get a cab down as is, and measure / listen in the garden, off the ground and see what i get at 10m distance.
So many questions, it's all new to me..
I did take a 5 way, 45 degree conical, front loaded horn system to a similarly large room 12 years ago.
But Synergies are a bit less efficient.
I'm quite excited about it..
I need some advice on where / what.
The room size is
About 12m (+ bar) X 6m plus the north wing of 5m X 7m.
I would estimate the height of 4 or maybe 4.5m with a nice curved roof.
Not sure which positioning is best?
I can't take my tall narrow tapped horns, so was thinking to make a big Lab12 sub 60" X 38" X 14" or so, to do below 60Hz odd.
I intend to raise the SH50s up about 1.5m but could perhaps go higher?
We don't need ear splitting PA volumes.
It's a hifi gathering.
90bB at the back should do it.
There won't be that many people there, maybe 50 or so (estimate).
Questions
Will a single sub be enough?
Is 1.5m up high enough?
Which positioning in the room would be best? I might not have control of that though..
What volume to aim for? 90-95dB in my mind as max.
Will one LF driver and 2 MF drivers be adequate per cab, out do I need to go full Danley and add to get 7 drivers?
(I knda want to do this anyway at some point 🙂)
I thought to get a cab down as is, and measure / listen in the garden, off the ground and see what i get at 10m distance.
So many questions, it's all new to me..
I did take a 5 way, 45 degree conical, front loaded horn system to a similarly large room 12 years ago.
But Synergies are a bit less efficient.
Perhaps, but a single sub will leave significant areas of the room without good low bass coverage in the "antinodes" of the room modes.
If everyone will be standing, then maybe a little bit higher. If everyone will be sitting, then aim for ITU-R-BS-775 height of 1.2 m (~47 inches) to the centerline of the horn:
Across the 728cm dimension would be my suggestion, since they will image quite far apart. The issue will be how far apart you spread them, since they only cover about 50 degrees horizontal/vertical, and a hole in the middle may become an issue. Since you haven't talked about nearfield acoustic wall treatments, simply pulling them away from the side walls by about 2m will suffice, but the downside of this is loss of bass below ~120 Hz.
Depends on the music played and the distance the listeners will be to them. A 90-95 dB (max) figure might be a little low in the peaks if you are playing very dynamic music. However, if you are talking about average SPL, then I'd say that will be sufficient, if a little high.
You've got plenty of efficiency for those two drivers to cover at or below 105 dB/1m, so don't sweat it. More midrange driver penetrations in the horn leaves you with less good polar coverage consistency in a very audible region (1-2 kHz).
Good. Anything to increase the volume of the covered space over your listening room will provide additional insights of the sound coverage and quality in a larger venue.
Chris
Thanks Chris,
This was most helpful.
It will be seated folk only doing any serious listening.
ITU-R-BS-775 interesting!
The dBs would be average - but yes a little high based on my own listening in my room.
It's just a bigger room come sept
Not that many people in the audience so not much absorbtion there.
The single bass might be okay as we're not worried about the other L part of the room and can focus in on a sweet spot of listening chairs.
This was most helpful.
It will be seated folk only doing any serious listening.
ITU-R-BS-775 interesting!
The dBs would be average - but yes a little high based on my own listening in my room.
It's just a bigger room come sept
Not that many people in the audience so not much absorbtion there.
The single bass might be okay as we're not worried about the other L part of the room and can focus in on a sweet spot of listening chairs.
A "nice curved roof" may be a "horrible parabolic reflector". The direction of the curve makes a difference..
Roof issues aside, I'd opt for the upper left speaker positions to avoid bar chatter and toilet in/out.
Speakers next to the side walls reduces side wall reflections (and frequency response "comb filtering") but
with only 50x50 coverage, will leave a "hole in the middle", the wider the speakers, the further back the front seats should be placed.
Standard PA advice: Rig the cabinets high, point them at the last seats.
I'd suggest elevating the bottom of the cabinet above head height, axis angled down to head height seated position in the back of the listening area to reduce the inverse distance level variance.
Outdoors, the -6dB for each doubling of difference from one to 10 meters is 20dB.
Same ratio as 1/100 watts..
Indoors, the direct sound drops at the same level, but the ratio of reflected sound increases, so SPL does not decrease uniformly, especially below the "Schroeder Frequency".
Every position should have a clear view of the HF driver, or they will be hearing more reflected than direct sound.
Moving the front seats back a few meters reduces the inverse distance variance considerably in this size room.
Art
Thanks Art, above positioning etc noted.
I found a pic of the hall.
I assume this is taken from the end / area that is the proposed speaker positioning, if I read the cues right.
Looks like that area has a much lower flat ceiling, plus it isn't carpeted as the area under slightly curved roof.
The tables will be gone and the seating re-arranged.
Fun and games.
I found a pic of the hall.
I assume this is taken from the end / area that is the proposed speaker positioning, if I read the cues right.
Looks like that area has a much lower flat ceiling, plus it isn't carpeted as the area under slightly curved roof.
The tables will be gone and the seating re-arranged.
Fun and games.
Taking some inspiration from a few pics on the internet like this
This shows how high they mounted the SH50s (with standing in mind).
I'm enjoying planning.
Something like this.
(Dims are approx)
I have no idea where to place the TH sub though.
I can have a MF / HF frequency absorbing panel each side approx 4' X 3' in size, at speaker height. Can be nearer than in the schematic.
Also found these rather cool reveal drawings - could be useful to have printed out on the info stand - so folk can see what the innards are like.
Might open some eyes!
I'm still toying with at least a 2nd LF per cab 🙂
This shows how high they mounted the SH50s (with standing in mind).
I'm enjoying planning.
Something like this.
(Dims are approx)
I have no idea where to place the TH sub though.
I can have a MF / HF frequency absorbing panel each side approx 4' X 3' in size, at speaker height. Can be nearer than in the schematic.
Also found these rather cool reveal drawings - could be useful to have printed out on the info stand - so folk can see what the innards are like.
Might open some eyes!
I'm still toying with at least a 2nd LF per cab 🙂
I found two very nice used Eminence Kappa 12As, couldn't resist, so I will put them in.
Might as well go whole hog with two more MF drivers per cab and bring it up to spec.
Will work better in forthcoming garden party too..
Perhaps I should get some sturdy PA tripod stands, another TH sub or two, a van and start doing DJ jigs😂
Might as well go whole hog with two more MF drivers per cab and bring it up to spec.
Will work better in forthcoming garden party too..
Perhaps I should get some sturdy PA tripod stands, another TH sub or two, a van and start doing DJ jigs😂
Exactly the picture I was looking for, note how the down angle is pointed at the back seats, and the mains are a bit above head height. People in front will be in the -6dB coverage range, further back will be on axis, making up for the distance loss in level. Get it right, and coverage can be within +/-3dB for most of the venue.
Centered between the mains is OK, but put the sub (and the mains) against the back wall (rather than as you depicted it) to avoid a deep boundary reflection cancellation, AKA "Speaker Boundary Interference Response". Depending on the depth of the TH, it may work better with the mouth, rather than the back of the cabinet against the wall.
http://tripp.com.au/sbir.htm
Global Truss crank tripod lifts work well for elevating heavy speakers such as yours.
You'll want to install rigging bolt receivers at the center of gravity of the speakers so you can tilt them using a yoke:
Rigging is not to be taken lightly, no one has ever been killed by poor sound, but too many have been by bad rigging.
Art
The 'full on' project is progressing.
Here is the Christmas tree DIY SH50 (full complement of 7 drivers).
All went pretty smoothly.
Trial fitting
This lot weighs 37.5kgs.
The rear chamber weighs 20kgs.
The best bit with this format is it obviates the need to to halve the rear chamber volume.
This simplified things.
It also massed up the cabs!
I took the opportunity to use the 6 bolt securing method - ala Danley.
Long bolts through the rear and into the horn section secured by threaded nuts.
This is a much more superior way of locking the two halves together.
I also have a screw in each corner just to pull the rear onto the sealing gasket.
Initial impressions are good.
Just plonked down with no DSP filter changes, the tonal balance is still fine.
Turned up the bass but also the mids have apparently taken on a new authority, but the delicate stuff is really nice too.
I was a bit worried the extra MF taps might mess the HF up somehow - need not have worried.
Perhaps it's all in my head🙂
Sure looks the part with 4 LF taps and 4 ports!
Of all my DIY creations I really love these MEH horn speakers.
They do do much right and so little wrong!
Here is the Christmas tree DIY SH50 (full complement of 7 drivers).
All went pretty smoothly.
Trial fitting
This lot weighs 37.5kgs.
The rear chamber weighs 20kgs.
The best bit with this format is it obviates the need to to halve the rear chamber volume.
This simplified things.
It also massed up the cabs!
I took the opportunity to use the 6 bolt securing method - ala Danley.
Long bolts through the rear and into the horn section secured by threaded nuts.
This is a much more superior way of locking the two halves together.
I also have a screw in each corner just to pull the rear onto the sealing gasket.
Initial impressions are good.
Just plonked down with no DSP filter changes, the tonal balance is still fine.
Turned up the bass but also the mids have apparently taken on a new authority, but the delicate stuff is really nice too.
I was a bit worried the extra MF taps might mess the HF up somehow - need not have worried.
Perhaps it's all in my head🙂
Sure looks the part with 4 LF taps and 4 ports!
Of all my DIY creations I really love these MEH horn speakers.
They do do much right and so little wrong!
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