Hey guys just wanted to mention that I'm letting the last panel glue onto the second swe10s4 build. Should be able to power tomorrow or even tonight late.
Just wanted to give a subjective review of the "other swe10s4 build,
the one that should be leak free now", let's check on that. --->
Anyways, I've driven it up to high power a few times to see what the SQ is like and what kind of physical output I can get out of it. Subjectively it definitely fills it's role as a "compact dj sub" in that it sounds smooth even driven hard, has decent low end (again this is to my ear) and definitely still has sub 40 hz going on (even if it is surpressed a little). For my friend who DJ's small events, usually inside where boundary loading is a reality these should work fine. In my small room 1 dominates it if pushed hard and thus two should be fine for "party level" again most people my age are used to such shitty sound systems (and nothing near the caliber of anything produced on this forum) that it should be loud enough to impress and IMO if he ran them at full power and was anywhere near them would have hearing damage issues. I usually run my sub/s at 110 or so (measured in room) to be courteous to neighbors and what not -- it's not like these are going to be in a concert hall with a sound license. I'm 100 percent confident that I could sell these for 250 a piece if I wanted to but as I mentioned earlier I'm moving on to other alpine sws designs next as those have ridiculous specs for the $. The 12 inch SWS beats the karlsonator above on this page at 500 watts (I realize it is a high BW design and not SPL) but for 75 bucks you can't beat the SWS imo.
Edited to space out into paragraphs for ease of reading
Saba ,
I really appreciate this review, and im really glad that you are pleased with the results! .... In your opinion does it seem to excel in punchy sounding bass? or the low smooth pant flapping bass? or just well balanced? does it have impact and detail? does it feel tactile ?
That SWS 12 for 75 dollars is a SCREAMING deal ! Free shipping? Was that from CreativeCarAudio as well?
I have been simming that driver with the published specs , you should send me your measured specs on it when you have a chance, then i can sim more accurately with those ....
The 12 has slightly more displacement than the two 10s , but the difference is very small ...
Initially with the published specs it looks like each one of those drivers will require around 90 liters of internal box volume in something like a tapped pipe , so about 30 liters less than what is required for two SWE-10S4s in the same alignment but the output is significantly down when compared , this doesn't seem to be the optimal alignment for this 12 , besides , it physically has an overly tight fit in the cab, so that's not ideal either.....
In an OD-QWP the 12 needs about 135 liters ...
So far a straight (no taper , no expansion) Offset Driver Quarter Wave Pipe (OD-QWP) seems to perform the best with this driver , requiring a volume of 135-ish L (only 15 liters larger than the dual 10S4 TP) and performing with about as much output as two SWE-10S4s but the response is not quite as flat as i would like ... Some stuffing in the first 20% to 30% would help tame the bump at FB ...
Those SWE 10s are truly hard to beat in these sorts of arrangements, but this 12 in the proper QWP cabinet (with 10 to 20 more liters) is very competitive according to HR.... Might be really fun to make a compound pipe with one of these for additional midbass punch
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PLEASE SHARE
I really want to sim a OD0-QWP especially if I can make it shorter than the straight pipe I simmed. My goal is less than or equal to 39 tall. less than or equal to 16 in one other dimension but really it doesn't matter too much that's just what fits nicely in my 4runner.This subwoofer (swe10s4) seems pretty balanced, this room is anything but that however (tried to eq room out). So as far as "midbass punch vs pants flapping bass" I would have to vote for something in the middle. Definitely not enough 40-45 to pants flap (like my T60). OFC just finished my 2nd one so we'll see how a pair do. Despite the dip in the simulation it doesn't seem to be week in the upper range but mainly because I've eq'ed it that way and in general I like to tailor to low bass because that is where the ears are less sensitive.
Like I mentioned earlier, flatness is not a concern for me because any of my serious clients will be required to buy an amp with dsp for limiter/hp/lp function and thus a few bands of PEQ are no issue.
Is your alternative design more than a trough of 118.4 and peak at 124.2? That's what I get in my sim straight pipe.
Less drivers = easier/cheaper so I'm always for a slightly larger driver if it is more efficient, also it allows you to scale up much easier and reach diminishing returns later (about 16 cabs is when you stop getting +6 db per doubling of cabs). Also, I like the excursion of the sws series because it allows you to HP lower than you would with the swe, meaning more usable extension.
The 15 in a 60 inch tall pipe is absolutely monstrous in low end output -- ofc that would be about 12 cubic feet or so and as such would only be useful for HT where pillars are more acceptable.
Was 5 available when I bought. i'd buy more but I'm broke until my stuff sells.
Item(s) Subtotal: $62.99
Shipping & Handling: $4.99
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Total before tax: $67.98
Sales Tax: $5.67
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Total for This Shipment: $73.65
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Comes monday but I go home to the bay area on thursday so may not get measured specs (friend lives 30 min south of me, not exactly convenient with gas prices and all).
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IIRC, measurements of 12in drivers in a 1x scale box hit 40Hz and go up past 3kHz. So it is not a stretch (literally to 1.5x) to imagine a 15in driver can hit 30Hz and probably as high as 1kHz or 2kHz. Here is a measurement of a k'nator (designed for a 12in) with an 8in BG20 driver as a test.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/239338-mini-karlsonator-0-53x-dual-tc9fds-68.html#post3922586
More info on that build here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/256758-karlsonator-12-12lta.html
More photos of the build to see what is involved - it is actually very easy as all cuts are square (except the K-aperture): https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.696242867088868.1073741850.601735219872967&type=1
Here is the design by gregB that started it all:
Can you estimate how much larger it might need to be for a 15"?
Saba, Such a good deal on that 12 !
ok , the compound pipe version looks pretty outrageous ! Bigger box though .....
Your OD-QWP box is now down to 124 liters , not bad =) .... The offset sweet spot seems to be around 15 to 20 centimeters so the driver wants to be located near the closed end of the pipe (S2=20cm) .... As a single fold it is 46" tall with 3/4" ply .... the only way to get it shorter is to use additional folding or add a small amount of mass-loading (constriction) but it wouldn't require much since we only need to shave off 7 inches of height ... Footprint would then be square-ish ...
Im attaching some HR screenshots of (what could be built as) the 46 inch single fold ..... Could be made larger (fatter) if you want to give yourself a bigger and deeper response bump on the bottom end, but i wouldn't go any smaller than 124 liters in this alignment with the SWS-12 .....
ok , the compound pipe version looks pretty outrageous ! Bigger box though .....
Your OD-QWP box is now down to 124 liters , not bad =) .... The offset sweet spot seems to be around 15 to 20 centimeters so the driver wants to be located near the closed end of the pipe (S2=20cm) .... As a single fold it is 46" tall with 3/4" ply .... the only way to get it shorter is to use additional folding or add a small amount of mass-loading (constriction) but it wouldn't require much since we only need to shave off 7 inches of height ... Footprint would then be square-ish ...
Im attaching some HR screenshots of (what could be built as) the 46 inch single fold ..... Could be made larger (fatter) if you want to give yourself a bigger and deeper response bump on the bottom end, but i wouldn't go any smaller than 124 liters in this alignment with the SWS-12 .....
Attachments
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Tapped Pipe with Alpine SWS 12D4
Here is the design by Sabaspeed:
I have never modeled a dual voice coil hooked up in series before. The Re changes, but doesn't something else in the TS params change too like BL doubles? No BL was specified by the manufacturer though. Let me know what T/S params are when in DVC mode. I am not sure if I spec'd the driver T/S params correctly given that it is a DVC wired in series. I have included stuffing in first part of TL all way through the turns.
Anyhow, the sims show kind of a saddle in the response in 2pi at xmax.
It looks better corner loaded (20 in from both side walls):
Here is placed 36 in from back wall (at 2.83V):
Here is cone displacement at xmax (with 34Hz -24dB/oct HPF):
Here is what it looks like without any stuffing applied for the corner case:
The Akabak script is attached as a txt file.
Here is the design by Sabaspeed:
I have never modeled a dual voice coil hooked up in series before. The Re changes, but doesn't something else in the TS params change too like BL doubles? No BL was specified by the manufacturer though. Let me know what T/S params are when in DVC mode. I am not sure if I spec'd the driver T/S params correctly given that it is a DVC wired in series. I have included stuffing in first part of TL all way through the turns.
Anyhow, the sims show kind of a saddle in the response in 2pi at xmax.
It looks better corner loaded (20 in from both side walls):
Here is placed 36 in from back wall (at 2.83V):
Here is cone displacement at xmax (with 34Hz -24dB/oct HPF):
Here is what it looks like without any stuffing applied for the corner case:
The Akabak script is attached as a txt file.
Attachments
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XRK ,
The BL factor for the SWS-12D2 is about 14.28 based upon published specs, but as we know the drivers actual specs might be slightly different .. .Alpine is very reputable so there is a good chance that the published specs will be close enough for modeling purposes.
That response in your Akabak sim looks pretty underdamped, an abundance of stuffing would smooth it out some but it just looks like the segments have too much area ... Try something along the lines of 550 to 650 sq cm for the area in the segments ..... I used 550 in the HR sim ..
Freddi,
I was trying to figure that out as well ... They aren't advertising that deal on Creative's website as far as i can tell, and i have been searching elsewhere but still haven't found that kind of steal ...
So far the best deal i have found is $85 with free shipping for the D4 , the D2 is around $90 for some reason ..... Even at $90 it is not a bad deal at all really , but still perusing the webz ...
BL^2/RE can be used to compare the motor strength of drivers that have different impedance & RE values ...
The spreadhseet that GM posted could be very handy !
I was having a related discussion about motor strength with a friend not too long ago, he was mistakenly trying to tell me that most affordable car audio drivers have weak motors (including JBLs and Alpines) and his reasoning was that they don't have the high BL factor (not high like big Pro Audio drivers often possess) ... What he didn't understand is that a BL of 13 at 4 ohms is a lot different than BL of 13 at 8 ohms ... The 4ohm driver in this example has significantly more motor strength..
The SWE-10S4 actually has an equivalent 8 ohm BL of 16.8 (using an RE of 6ohms) which is pretty good considering it is only a 10" woofer with a only little over 100 grams of moving mass...Its a great ratio for a lowly 50 dollar car audio sub with 10mm of xmax .... This is all based on Saba's measured specs (RE=3.85 with a BL of 13.44)..
There are other affordable car audio drivers that have even stronger motors , the offerings from Soundqubed come to mind ..... There is also an interesting Quantum Audio driver that claims to have EXTREME motor strength and is selling dirt cheap right now, but less reputable brands don't always tell the truth about their parameters , in those cases you just have to order them and test them yourself if you have the gear to do so ..
There is a Pioneer 12 (model TS-W1200PRO) that is selling cheap right now too with remarkable motor strength, but it is more like a PA driver with only 6mm of xmax , could be a good candidate for a fairly compact DCR box which would control the excursion and allow use at full power..
The spreadhseet that GM posted could be very handy !
I was having a related discussion about motor strength with a friend not too long ago, he was mistakenly trying to tell me that most affordable car audio drivers have weak motors (including JBLs and Alpines) and his reasoning was that they don't have the high BL factor (not high like big Pro Audio drivers often possess) ... What he didn't understand is that a BL of 13 at 4 ohms is a lot different than BL of 13 at 8 ohms ... The 4ohm driver in this example has significantly more motor strength..
The SWE-10S4 actually has an equivalent 8 ohm BL of 16.8 (using an RE of 6ohms) which is pretty good considering it is only a 10" woofer with a only little over 100 grams of moving mass...Its a great ratio for a lowly 50 dollar car audio sub with 10mm of xmax .... This is all based on Saba's measured specs (RE=3.85 with a BL of 13.44)..
There are other affordable car audio drivers that have even stronger motors , the offerings from Soundqubed come to mind ..... There is also an interesting Quantum Audio driver that claims to have EXTREME motor strength and is selling dirt cheap right now, but less reputable brands don't always tell the truth about their parameters , in those cases you just have to order them and test them yourself if you have the gear to do so ..
There is a Pioneer 12 (model TS-W1200PRO) that is selling cheap right now too with remarkable motor strength, but it is more like a PA driver with only 6mm of xmax , could be a good candidate for a fairly compact DCR box which would control the excursion and allow use at full power..
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It's not at creative car audio. I got it off amazon, can't remember the sellers name but they are based out of california i.e. ships fast for me.
Flat doesn't matter
. Here are the T/s parameters I simulated with, and the corresponding graph.Attachments
Pretty sure that people ignore the change in inductance Le and just change RE which in this case is 7 for series (3.5+3.5)
Le doesn't have a tremendous effect on it if it doubles as it should with series components (inductors behave like resistors).
Oh, I'm using the sws d4 which is the difference from what everyone else is simulating.
Here is the sale
You have to click "new from 63..." it's not the default seller.
